DEVELOPING: Shooting reported at Connecticut elementary school; 27 killed
1,626 replies, posted
These people know NOTHING about the game, all they did was see the basterd on tv and put his name into facebook and saw what the dude used to like.
[img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/52959618/Thisisjustdumb.png[/img]
And then like morons they blame the game for his actions.
This whole school shooting is a horrible ordeal, but how do people make these dumb connections.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;38836283]I never said it wasn't a problem. Less than 1% of all murders, however, are the result of mass murder. 67% of all murders in the US are all the result of firearms. This was only in 2010, mind you. And across all 645 mass-murder events we have had between 1976 and 2010, the death count has only been 2,949 ([url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/getting-real-with-mass-murder-stats/2012/07/25/gJQA1YY28W_blog.html[/url]). That's right! That's only ~86 deaths a year, which in a country whose population has been 0.000039% of total deaths if the population were still at 1976 levels (218 million.)
Statistically, I'm sorry, mass murder is irrelevant. Mass murder is, however, tragic and unnecessary. Mass murder is such an insignificant portion of firearm homicide that it's almost disgusting how people use massacres to crusade against gun rights, when mass murders aren't even the biggest cause of firearm related homicide.[/QUOTE]
please tell me what groups of people are disadvantaged by more stricter regulations on firearms
[QUOTE=Ownederd;38836303]please tell me what groups of people are disadvantaged by more stricter regulations on firearms[/QUOTE]
When did I say I wasn't in support of gun control? I'm simply dispelling bullshit that people are spewing with actual facts.
I feel sorry for all the people who had to suffer with this, but...
Jeez, all over the place I've been hearing people (talking about people in real life I've been around while doing things today, [B]NOT IN THIS THREAD[/B]) preaching to ban guns. Ban guns. Ban guns!! [B][I]THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!![/I][/B] And it pisses me off. People don't think about what this could cause.
Banning guns or putting more control on them isn't going to do anything.
Why?
Black market.
Stealing.
And other illegal means to obtain a gun without a license.
People will always do this, and taking away guns from the legitimate public would only make us more helpless than we already are to defend ourselves.
Laws? Laws. You can make as many as you want and make gun restricted areas out the ass but, guess what! People break the law all the time! [B]It's not like everyone has a shock collar that goes off every time they break the law.[/B] WHAT A SURPRISE, RIGHT???
Even if everyone went under extensive psychiatric evaluation before a gun purchase. People could just avoid it and buy a gun off the black market.
Even if you destroy every existing gun on the planet, people can still machine their own. Or go medieval and use swords n' shit.. Ban those and they could just use their fists. Anything can be used as a deadly weapon, and [I]figuratively[/I] putting everyone in strait jackets and playpins with gun control laws while anyone could simply break free and climb out of the playpin when mommy isn't looking isn't going to solve anything.
[sub]Think of it like bad DRM. The legit customers get shafted because of so many control laws when they went through everything to get a gun legitimately, while the people who got a gun illegitimately, go free without much restrictions unlike the legit customers.[/sub]
Edit: Alright, the next time there's a shooting and you're caught up in it and you're about to die because laws prevent you or others that are perfectly mentally able from having a carried concealed to defend yourself, but the guy who's doing it bought it off the black market, maybe you'll have second thoughts before that bullet blows those thoughts right out of your skull.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38836271]As a responsible, not American gun owner I find this statement to be false, defamatory, and ignorant. See how that works? Claiming to own guns doesn't give your assertion any more credibility.[/QUOTE]
I didn't drop the gun ownership line to gain credibility, just to show my perspective. If you think I'm a liberal in sheeps clothing who hates guns, the second amendment, and America that's okay. But you are still wrong
[QUOTE]As for the statement itself, the anti-gun lobby is worse in many countries, such as its racist bias in South Africa that makes it nigh impossible for a black person to own a gun legally, to the way it dances on the graves of shooting victims to try and push gun control and fear using emotion and lies in both Australia and Canada, the former of which has had their anti-gun lobby sued for defamation.[/QUOTE]
Okay thats cool and all but I'm talking about America the country I live in and which most of these debates are based on. I'm not even going to source your claims because it has nothing to do with my position or the topic at hand
[QUOTE]The American gun lobby is not a cancer, nor is the gun culture, because GUNS ARE NOT THE ISSUE HERE. This is a mental health issue, not an issue about the guns. [/QUOTE]
It can't be both?
[QUOTE]This is about why he did it, not how he did it, and the stabbing today in an Elementary school in China showcases that guns aren't the only mass-attack weapon.[/QUOTE]
Answer truthfully: Would you rather the Connecticut murderer had a knife or a gun? Keeping in mind that using the former two people were seriously injured and 20 more only suffered slight injuries, and the latter killed 28 people outright
[QUOTE]People love to demonize the NRA because of how steadfast they are in their defence of what they exist for, lobbying the government in favour of the 2nd Amendment. They blame the NRA for this, you think the NRA want these things to happen? No, the American gun culture and gun lobby doesn't want these things to happen, nor do they cause or condone them.[/QUOTE]
This is so incredibly disgustingly wrong. The NRA has absolutely nothing to lose from these bi-weekly mass, public shootings. Gun sales go up every time they happen, and gun manufactures send all that money to the NRA to represent their interests on a national level. The NRA even argues that people on the terrorist watch list should be able to purchase firearms. In the past few years polls have shown that many NRA members, some times a majority depending on the case, actually disagree with NRA stated policy. They are no longer (have never been?) in the business of supporting the second amendment for the American everyman or hunter, but do what they do out of greed.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;38836283]I never said it wasn't a problem. Less than 1% of all murders, however, are the result of mass murder. 67% of all murders in the US are all the result of firearms. This was only in 2010, mind you. And across all 645 mass-murder events we have had between 1976 and 2010, the death count has only been 2,949 ([URL]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/getting-real-with-mass-murder-stats/2012/07/25/gJQA1YY28W_blog.html[/URL]). That's right! That's only ~86 deaths a year caused by mass murders. Assuming our population hasn't grown since 1976 at 218 million, only 0.000039% of the population succumbs to mass murder yearly.
Statistically, I'm sorry, mass murder is irrelevant. Mass murder is, obviously, tragic and unnecessary. The point is, mass murder is such an insignificant portion of firearm homicide that it's almost disgusting how people use massacres to crusade against gun rights, when mass murders aren't even the biggest cause of firearm related homicide.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for quanitfying how little these terrible events actually matter using math.
Can do you do me a favor while you are running numbers and see how many more of these shooting sprees have to occur before even basic talks at any level can begin about possibly controlling gun sales and proliferation?
[editline]14th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=SuperDuperScoot;38836331]I feel sorry for all the people who had to suffer with this, but...
Jeez, all over the place I've been hearing people preaching to ban guns. Ban guns. Ban guns!! [B][I]THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!![/I][/B] And it pisses me off. People don't think about what this could cause.[/QUOTE]
not a single person in this thread has advocated the banning of firearms.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;38836414]not a single person in this thread has advocated the banning of firearms.[/QUOTE]
I was mostly talking about people in real life I've been around while doing things today.
Sorry, should have clarified that.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;38836414] Thank you for quanitfying how little these terrible events actually matter using math.
Can do you do me a favor while you are running numbers and see how many more of these shooting sprees have to occur before even basic talks at any level can begin about possibly controlling gun sales and proliferation?[/QUOTE]
Oh, I'm not saying we can't have gun control talks. But using massacres as justification? Why is less than 1% of firearm homicide a year (0.6%, to be specific) more valid to use as justification for gun control? What of the other 99.4% of gun homicides? Let's be serious. There's so much more that warrants gun talks that mass murder.
Now, if you pulled your head out of your ass, you would see that, woah, I actually agree with you! I'm just actually capable of seeing the forest for the trees.
Fucking sick, just heard about this on the news at work, flipped to the nearest news channel (MSNBC) and of course the first thing they fucking bring up is the political affiliation of X guy making a statement, then start talking about gun control with a bunch of analysts.
Shit like this happens and you seriously use it as an excuse to push your political agenda as a media corporation instead of paying respects? Seriously?
[QUOTE=Protocol7;38836450]Oh, I'm not saying we can't have gun control talks. But using massacres as justification? Why is less than 1% of firearm homicide a year (0.6%, to be specific) more valid to use as justification for gun control? What of the other 99.4% of gun homicides? Let's be serious. There's so much more that warrants gun talks that mass murder.
Now, if you pulled your head out of your ass, you would see that, woah, I actually agree with you! I'm just actually capable of seeing the forest for the trees.[/QUOTE]
When have I ever implied that the only reason to talk about gun control is after mass murders? I mean it's hard in America because they have become a bi-weekly thing but still, that's never been an argument.
My head might be up my ass, but I have no clue where your head is because you are reading entirely different things than what I am typing.
[editline]14th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=KorJax;38836499]Fucking sick, just heard about this on the news at work, flipped to the nearest news channel (MSNBC) and of course the first thing they fucking bring up is the political affiliation of X guy making a statement, then start talking about gun control with a bunch of analysts.
Shit like this happens and you seriously use it as an excuse to push your political agenda as a media corporation instead of paying respects? Seriously?[/QUOTE]
Why aren't we allowed to talk about gun control after a terrible tragedy involving guns?
[QUOTE=KorJax;38836499]Fucking sick, just heard about this on the news at work, flipped to the nearest news channel (MSNBC) and of course the first thing they fucking bring up is the political affiliation of X guy making a statement, then start talking about gun control with a bunch of analysts.
Shit like this happens and you seriously use it as an excuse to push your political agenda as a media corporation instead of paying respects? Seriously?[/QUOTE]
They aren't analysts. They're the guys answering phones that they pull off to sound smart.
It's not like paying respects and talking about gun control are mutually exclusive. This is a sad day for everyone everywhere but the conversation needs to happen. Why does this keep happening?
[QUOTE=Raidyr;38836414]I didn't drop the gun ownership line to gain credibility, just to show my perspective. If you think I'm a liberal in sheeps clothing who hates guns, the second amendment, and America that's okay. But you are still wrong[/quote]
"You disagree with my unfounded claim, therefore you're wrong." Brilliant, completely infallible "logic" there. I'm wrong about US gun culture not being a cancer for what reason exactly? Because you think it is? Is that the argument presented here?
[quote]Okay thats cool and all but I'm talking about America the country I live in and which most of these debates are based on. I'm not even going to source your claims because it has nothing to do with my position or the topic at hand[/quote]
Then how about the Brady Campaign trying to blame gun owners for all of this, responsible citizens? How about Bloomberg and his Mayors Against "Illegal" Guns running fear campaigns across the country? How about anti-gun news commentators bringing pro-gun activists on their shows just to yell at them and shout them down, and try and blame them for these things (Peirs Morgan on CNN with John Lott is an example from today).
[quote]It can't be both? [/quote]
Since no amount of gun control can stop a gunman from acquiring a gun, but making sure he's receiving treatment for mental issues can prevent him from going on a shooting, no, it can't.
[quote]Answer truthfully: Would you rather the Connecticut murderer had a knife or a gun? Keeping in mind that using the former two people were seriously injured and 20 more only suffered slight injuries, and the latter killed 28 people outright[/quote]
That's a loaded question, as there's no guarantee he wouldn't have done it just as well. Mass stabbing in Asia claim similar numbers of lives to mass shootings in the developed western world, so it actually wouldn't matter which tool he used, he could have killed just as many people.
[quote]This is so incredibly disgustingly wrong. The NRA has absolutely nothing to lose from these bi-weekly mass, public shootings. Gun sales go up every time they happen, and gun manufactures send all that money to the NRA to represent their interests on a national level. The NRA even argues that people on the terrorist watch list should be able to purchase firearms. In the past few years polls have shown that many NRA members, some times a majority depending on the case, actually disagree with NRA stated policy. They are no longer (have never been?) in the business of supporting the second amendment for the American everyman or hunter, but do what they do out of greed. [/quote]
Bi-weekly? So because there were 2 this week, suddenly there are 2 every week? I'm also going ot need a source on the "terrorist watch list" claim, and those extra profits from gun sales don't all go back to the NRA, as a matter of fact, I think the NRA pays the gun makers to include their pamphlet in every gun box. The main reason people are disappointed with the NRA now is because they're moving away from bipartisanism, and supporting the Republicans, due to the Democrat's history with gun laws.
[quote] Thank you for quanitfying how little these terrible events actually matter using math.
Can do you do me a favor while you are running numbers and see how many more of these shooting sprees have to occur before even basic talks at any level can begin about possibly controlling gun sales and proliferation?[/quote]
It happened once already, between 1994-2004, it was a massive failure then and it'd be a massive failure now.
[quote][editline]14th December 2012[/editline]
not a single person in this thread has advocated the banning of firearms.[/QUOTE]
Actually, several people have with claims that "assault weapons are unnecessary" and that the 2nd Amendment is irrelevant, thus not protecting the right to own firearms. As well, if you look at what "gun control" has amounted to in literally every other nation, and even in US history, it's amounted to nonsensical bans based on aesthetics more than function.
[QUOTE=SuperDuperScoot;38836331]I feel sorry for all the people who had to suffer with this, but...
Jeez, all over the place I've been hearing people (talking about people in real life I've been around while doing things today, [B]NOT IN THIS THREAD[/B]) preaching to ban guns. Ban guns. Ban guns!! [B][I]THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!![/I][/B] And it pisses me off. People don't think about what this could cause.
Banning guns or putting more control on them isn't going to do anything.
Why?
Black market.
Stealing.
And other illegal means to obtain a gun without a license.
People will always do this, and taking away guns from the legitimate public would only make us more helpless than we already are to defend ourselves.
Laws? Laws. You can make as many as you want and make gun restricted areas out the ass but, guess what! People break the law all the time! [B]It's not like everyone has a shock collar that goes off every time they break the law.[/B] WHAT A SURPRISE, RIGHT???
Even if everyone went under extensive psychiatric evaluation before a gun purchase. People could just avoid it and buy a gun off the black market.
Even if you destroy every existing gun on the planet, people can still machine their own. Or go medieval and use swords n' shit.. Ban those and they could just use their fists. Anything can be used as a deadly weapon, and [I]figuratively[/I] putting everyone in strait jackets and playpins with gun control laws while anyone could simply break free and climb out of the playpin when mommy isn't looking isn't going to solve anything.
[sub]Think of it like bad DRM. The legit customers get shafted because of so many control laws when they went through everything to get a gun legitimately, while the people who got a gun illegitimately, go free without much restrictions unlike the legit customers.[/sub]
Edit: Alright, the next time there's a shooting and you're caught up in it and you're about to die because laws prevent you or others that are perfectly mentally able from having a carried concealed to defend yourself, but the guy who's doing it bought it off the black market, maybe you'll have second thoughts before that bullet blows those thoughts right out of your skull.[/QUOTE]
One more thing, let me make one thing clear I (stupidly) neglected to do in my original post.
I'm mostly talking about people who think increased gun control or gun bans are a cure-all and no more mass shootings will ever happen in the US again, when it doesn't work that way. (See: Most Americans deliberately breaking major laws, some to the point of killing people, to prove a point, you can't say you haven't seen/heard of it happen)
Sure, it might reduce them somewhat, but I'm just tired of people thinking that it will solve every gun problem and make the world happy.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;38836506]When have I ever implied that the only reason to talk about gun control is after mass murders? I mean it's hard in America because they have become a bi-weekly thing but still, that's never been an argument.
My head might be up my ass, but I have no clue where your head is because you are reading entirely different things than what I am typing.[/QUOTE]
So the point is in the grand scheme of things mass murders aren't even the problem with firearms in the US.
In which case, why do people only bring it up after a massacre? Because it's more tragic? It's a disgusting kneejerk reaction.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;38836414]not a single person in this thread has advocated the banning of firearms.[/QUOTE]
Bro, have you read the thread?
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38836271]As a responsible, not American gun owner I find this statement to be false, defamatory, and ignorant. See how that works? Claiming to own guns doesn't give your assertion any more credibility.[/QUOTE]
He's objecting to the gun lobby not to gun owners.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38836271]As for the statement itself, the anti-gun lobby is worse in many countries[/QUOTE]
well lets see what you have to s-
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38836271]such as its racist bias in South Africa that makes it nigh impossible for a black person to own a gun legally, to the way it dances on the graves of shooting victims to try and push gun control and fear using emotion and lies in both Australia and Canada, the former of which has had their anti-gun lobby sued for defamation.[/QUOTE]
stop
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38836271]The American gun lobby is not a cancer, nor is the gun culture, because GUNS ARE NOT THE ISSUE HERE.[/QUOTE]
yes it is, mass shootings happen and the gun lobby peddles their fucking "lets bring in more guns that will solve everything".
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38836271]This is a mental health issue, not an issue about the guns. This is about why he did it, not how he did it, and the stabbing today in an Elementary school in China showcases that guns aren't the only mass-attack weapon.[/QUOTE]
except more guns won't fix it
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38836271]People love to demonize the NRA because of how steadfast they are in their defence of what they exist for, lobbying the government in favour of the 2nd Amendment.[/QUOTE]
no, they criticise them for their bullshit ideology
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38836271]They blame the NRA for this, you think the NRA want these things to happen? No, the American gun culture and gun lobby doesn't want these things to happen, nor do they cause or condone them.[/QUOTE]
they don't want them to happen, but they profit from whenever an opportunity exists to push for more lax gun laws
[editline]15th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Leo Leonardo;38836570]Bro, have you read the thread?[/QUOTE]
Nobody here has advocated banning firearms (including me).
Assault weapons ban would make it where people cannot buy gun magazines greater than 10 rounds.
You don't need 30 round magazines or 100 round drums for self defense and hunting.
Not that I fully support this.
I think bullying is a factor to people who rampage.
[QUOTE=GunShard;38836639]Assault weapons ban would make it where people cannot buy gun magazines greater than 10 rounds.
You don't need 30 round magazines or 100 round drums for self defense and hunting[/QUOTE]
Nah but there's nothing stopping a shooter from, y'know, reloading.
This type of gun control accomplishes nothing. Look at California, the leader in assault weapon control. They have the same amount of homicide per 100,000 people as basically every other state.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;38836644]Nah but there's nothing stopping a shooter from, y'know, reloading.[/QUOTE]
Well yeah, but it takes them longer.
Gun control or any talk of it is bullshit and even then it wouldn't solve shit.
1.) There are too many firearms already available for black market buying.
2.) Our second amendment right prevents that anyway, so why the hell is this even being discussed?
3.) If somebody decides to drive their car into a mall and mow over a hundred or so people, who's going to fucking cry out loud that you want to ban cars?
[editline]14th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38836653]Well yeah, but it takes them longer.[/QUOTE]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzrahUUTi8]If they've practiced, it takes less than a second to reload. That's not much time.[/url]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38836597]He's objecting to the gun lobby not to gun owners.
well lets see what you have to s-
stop[/quote]
I have heard from numerous sources that blacks have an incredibly difficult time getting a gun in South Africa, and that police will randomly confiscate guns to re-sell them on the black market. Gun control there was also designed by the Canadian who designed gun control here, who has been pushing one shooting that happened over 20 years ago as her main reason as to why gun are evil and the seeming sole cause for abuse against women and spousal deaths, because the mass shooting was against all women, despite the fact that at the most 14 women will die in any given year in a domestic situation due to a firearm, compared with a national murder rate of over 500, and you get a number statistically insignificant for justification of gun control.
[quote]yes it is, mass shootings happen and the gun lobby peddles their fucking "lets bring in more guns that will solve everything".[/quote]
No, it doesn't, this is completely your personal ridiculous bias to the situation, and I think we've been over this much before as well, and you've ignored it.
[quote]except more guns won't fix it[/quote]
Nor will banning them.
[quote]no, they criticise them for their bullshit ideology[/quote]
So defending one of the US' constitutional rights is bullshit now? No, they're criticized LEGITIMATELY for being a republican shill, the Brady Campaign hating them doesn't count as legitimate criticism.
[quote]they don't want them to happen, but they profit from whenever an opportunity exists to push for more lax gun laws[/quote]
And anti-gun organizations profit whenever there's an opportunity to push more restrictive control measures. That's not a one-way street, but the point is neither wants these things to happen, and at a point like this the NRA isn't pushing for less gun control, they're pushing for there not to be more.
[QUOTE=gk99;38836661]Gun control or any talk of it is bullshit and even then it wouldn't solve shit.
1.) There are too many firearms already available for black market buying.
2.) Our second amendment right prevents gun control anyway, so why the hell is this even being discussed?
3.) If somebody decides to drive their car into a mall and mow over a hundred or so people, who's going to fucking cry out loud that you want to ban cars?
[editline]14th December 2012[/editline]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzrahUUTi8]If they've practiced, it takes less than a second to reload. That's not much time.[/url][/QUOTE]
"its bullshit because i say so"
this is extremely annoying, and it's one of the worse things you can do for an argument
So people jump on every "like" that the supposed shooter has, and it wasn't even the right person.
Mob action multiplied by "first to report" sensationalism, damn
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;38836693]So people jump on every "like" that the supposed shooter has, and it wasn't even the right person.
Mob action multiplied by "first to report" sensationalism, damn[/QUOTE]
People are fucking stupid. It doesn't help that the media continues to spoonfeed them bullshit (and it's usually editorialized too!)
[QUOTE=gk99;38836661]Gun control or any talk of it is bullshit and even then it wouldn't solve shit.
1.) There are too many firearms already available for black market buying.[/QUOTE]
This is because a massive domestic industry already exists.
[QUOTE=gk99;38836661]2.) Our second amendment right prevents gun control anyway, so why the hell is this even being discussed?[/QUOTE]
This is a circular argument. Anybody who uses "its in the second amendment" is a tosser who doesn't look at the merits of a law, but just falls back to some earlier law that was written over 200 years ago by a tiny group of upper class white men.
[QUOTE=gk99;38836661][url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzrahUUTi8]If they've practiced, it takes less than a second to reload. That's not much time.[/url][/QUOTE]
Not everybody is that fast, and its still slower than a full automatic.
[QUOTE=Ownederd;38836687]"its bullshit because i say so"
this is extremely annoying, and it's one of the worse things you can do for an argument[/QUOTE]
*I provide three reasons and you apparently bother to read none of them or something.*
[QUOTE=gk99;38836717]*I provide three reasons and you apparently bother to read none of them or something.*[/QUOTE]
oh, so you're just gonna be antagonizing in your favor, cool
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;38836693]So people jump on every "like" that the supposed shooter has, and it wasn't even the right person.
Mob action multiplied by "first to report" sensationalism, damn[/QUOTE]
I feel as though the media shouldn't be trusted with these kind of stories. Too much confusion and lack of proper infromation that leads to mistakes and misinformation.
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