• Indie Dev Removing Racially Charged Gag From Game After Complaints
    201 replies, posted
He wants to change the game so be it. I have nothing against his personal decision. I'd just like to note that art should not cater to everyone; it's a firm belief of mine. Art is meant to be subject to criticisms by the masses and is also meant to deliver the artist's opinions and beliefs through a medium. The creator has chosen himself to remove this joke from his game which is his right as the creator, but he should not be forced to remove content to appease others.
[QUOTE=Pennywise;42631987]Technically, no. The [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WD8LBKIQ7A&feature=player_detailpage#t=177]game itself at one point[/url] flat out tells the player that a working knowledge of narrative tropes in video gaming is a prerequisite for properly experiencing The Stanley Parable. (This is also a scenario where the narrator assumes that the real-life player has died a swift and horrible death in the middle of playing his game and calls out for other humans to remove the corpse, which is another level of not-very-great-for-kids humor, but that's another story entirely)[/QUOTE] and kids cant read books written for adults, as well? just because you dont think they would understand it doesnt mean they wont [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Stents*;42634774]Most people aren't really complaining about him deciding to change it. They're complaining about the fact that many people (All races, sexes and anything that makes you "different" included) purposely look for things to get offended by. If you ask the average person they'll probably say they're being oppressed in some way. Not only that but the fact that someone can say "I'm offended" and get "controversy" stirring. Almost every modern joke involves the misfortune of someone(s). And just because that someone is black doesn't mean they're purposely being racist. The way I interpreted the joke was that the game was silently poking mockery at the video for saying that burning orphans from impoverished nations is a valid choice, the punchline is that the video is incredible wrong. If he wants to change the game more power to him. I just don't think there's anything wrong about the joke as is.[/QUOTE] unfortunately you're not an authority on racism so your judgement on this matter is irrelevant
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;42636346] unfortunately you're not an authority on racism so your judgement on this matter is irrelevant[/QUOTE] Oh, who is? Because I would like to lodge a complaint.
[QUOTE=megafat;42632175]I didn't say he shouldn't remove it. He has every right to remove it if he thinks the complaints are valid. The complaints are about it being racist, which is wasn't. It was very clear, with the dialogue spoken and the pictures used that it was about an orphan, not about a black person, so the complaints about it being racist had no basis and were very weak. I can see how the person who complained might interpretative it as racist, but they didn't think it through.[/QUOTE] the dev thinks you're wrong and that is really all that matters. who do you think has a more educated opinion on what is and is not racist, for that matter, as you I think I can fairly assume are someone that has not ever experienced it first hand [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Mingebox;42636368]Oh, who is? Because I would like to lodge a complaint.[/QUOTE] dunno
Well I guess since I don't have a degree in racistology I can't talk about racism.
my point being, really, that no one cares if you dont think its racist because in that case the whole thing is a non-issue to you. i dont see why when someone thinks something is in fact racist you or anyone would feel the need to say "i dont think it is" when no one asked for your opinion to begin with. its a complaint about a complaint. a metaphor for the situation is if the dev asked for critique on the humor and you responded with "i dont think the humor is bad!" that doesn't help anyone, it's completely nonconstructive and useless information. the guy isn't asking to be defended, and it's not your job to defend that humor, you didn't make the joke. perhaps you feel the need to "defend" it because you thought it was funny and you yourself dont want to be seen as a racist by having laughed at a joke some people feel is racist, but that is not how racism works so its completely unnecessary and immature. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Stents*;42636422]Well I guess since I don't have a degree in racistology I can't talk about racism.[/QUOTE] i guess this is supposed to be a joke?
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;42636346]unfortunately you're not an authority on racism so your judgement on this matter is irrelevant[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Vedicardi;42636435]i guess this is supposed to be a joke?[/QUOTE] holy shit are you for real [QUOTE=Vedicardi;42636435]my point being, really, that no one cares if you dont think its racist because in that case the whole thing is a non-issue to you. i dont see why when someone thinks something is in fact racist you or anyone would feel the need to say "i dont think it is" when no one asked for your opinion to begin with. its a complaint about a complaint. a metaphor for the situation is if the dev asked for critique on the humor and you responded with "i dont think the humor is bad!" that doesn't help anyone, it's completely nonconstructive and useless information. the guy isn't asking to be defended, and it's not your job to defend that humor, you didn't make the joke. perhaps you feel the need to "defend" it because you thought it was funny and you yourself dont want to be seen as a racist by having laughed at a joke some people feel is racist, but that is not how racism works so its completely unnecessary and immature.[/QUOTE] wait so that means you're making a complaint about people complaining about a complaint? no one care's that you don't think the complain of the complain is useful. Because in that case the whole thing is a non-issue to you. See how that works? :v:
im for frickin real guys [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] that's not how it works
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;42636435]my point being, really, that no one cares if you dont think its racist because in that case the whole thing is a non-issue to you. i dont see why when someone thinks something is in fact racist you or anyone would feel the need to say "i dont think it is" when no one asked for your opinion to begin with. its a complaint about a complaint. a metaphor for the situation is if the dev asked for critique on the humor and you responded with "i dont think the humor is bad!" that doesn't help anyone, it's completely nonconstructive and useless information. the guy isn't asking to be defended, and it's not your job to defend that humor, you didn't make the joke. perhaps you feel the need to "defend" it because you thought it was funny and you yourself dont want to be seen as a racist by having laughed at a joke some people feel is racist, but that is not how racism works so its completely unnecessary and immature. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] i guess this is supposed to be a joke?[/QUOTE] The whole "No one asked for what you thought" has got to be the weakest argument ever though up, no one asked for you opinion either. If I'm not supposed to discuss the news here then why are we even posting the news on a forum? I was simply stating my opinion, if you disagree that perfectly fine, you can post a reply to my opinion. If don't want to that's fine too. See how this works? Also the mere fact that you had to asked whether I was serious completely destroys your credibility as a poster.
[QUOTE=Stents*;42636573]The whole "No one asked for what you thought" has got to be the weakest argument ever though up, no one asked for you opinion either. If I'm not supposed to discuss the news here then why are we even posting the news on a forum? I was simply stating my opinion, if you disagree that perfectly fine, you can post a reply to my opinion. If don't want to that's fine too. See how this works? Also the mere fact that you had to asked whether I was serious completely destroys your credibility as a poster.[/QUOTE] that and the fact that you have to be an "Authority on racism" to say how it's bullshit what the hell is an authority on racism? Is there a branch of goverment in the US that determines what is and is not racist?
uh oh not my "posting credibility" god forbid i lose that my point is your opinion is uneducated and uncalled for. it's nice that you don't think it's racist, but who does that effect, what relevance does that have to anyone? do you think the person who made the original complaint is going to change their mind? the only purpose of this as far as I can tell is to defend your own ego from the concept that you could have been wrong for enjoying something, that someone could tangentially think you are racist, and by posting your opinion here in this "safe zone" where everyone shares the same opinion that this is not racist you'll be comforted in thinking you're not alone and that you're not a bad person. There's a huge difference between just saying "i think this guy is wrong" in a public forum and actually talking to the guy and having a discussion with him about why he is wrong, which is the difference between what you and I are doing. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;42636595]that and the fact that you have to be an "Authority on racism" to say how it's bullshit what the hell is an authority on racism? Is there a branch of goverment in the US that determines what is and is not racist?[/QUOTE] all you have to do is understand the base concepts of it. you, however, are clearly completely ignorant in regards to the subject as you have resorted to making what I really can only assume are jokes regarding what/who are commonly accepted as authorities on the topic of racism. you don't have to be a complete authority to make a judgement on something, but you, personally, clearly know absolutely nothing about it. that was my point.
[QUOTE=megafat;42632175]The complaints are about it being racist, which is wasn't. It was very clear, with the dialogue spoken and the pictures used that it was about an orphan, not about a black person, so the complaints about it being racist had no basis and were very weak. I can see how the person who complained might interpretative it as racist, but they didn't think it through.[/QUOTE] The complaint [I]wasn't[/I] that the scene was racist. It was that the spoken dialogue (orphan) and the accompanying visual gag (impoverished black child) didn't match up, and the scene ultimately depicted a black child burning (which does have historical connections - Campbell recognized it was unintentional). Unfortunately, the combination of the spoken joke and visual gag delivered a mixed message. Campbell was sure that it wasn't [I]intended[/I] to be racist, but his initial reaction was that he [I]perceived[/I] it as such. That's the experience he had, and he raised his concerns with Wreden as a result - Not to ask him to [I]remove[/I] the joke (despite what he initially said on twitter, [URL="http://www.polygon.com/2013/10/23/5022434/the-stanley-parable-update-in-the-works-to-remove-offensive-images#192806399"][explained here][/URL]), but to provide suggestions on how to [I]correct[/I] it. Campbell's concerns are absolutely valid. For reference, his comments from Polygon: [url]http://www.polygon.com/2013/10/23/5022434/the-stanley-parable-update-in-the-works-to-remove-offensive-images#192769863[/url] [quote=Oliver Campbell]I have no problem answering honest questions. My problem was multi-fold: 1. The images did not match up with what was being said in the dialogue. 2. The joke says that he is “helping” them (convincing a child to get hooked on cigarettes, which cause cancer), or burning down orphanages (instead, it shows him lighting one black child on fire). When I spoke to Davey, I expressed that these things don’t match up and that the kind of message it gets across is “either help minorities by killing them with cancer, or light them on fire.” The joke itself is actually very funny, but the [B]execution[/B] of this joke is where it ran ashore.[/quote] [url]http://www.polygon.com/2013/10/23/5022434/the-stanley-parable-update-in-the-works-to-remove-offensive-images#192800341[/url] [quote=Oliver Campbell][...] This is straight from my email to Davey (and you can confirm this yourself with him if you like) of the expected change that is coming, this is what should be happening: “[B]1.[/B] In the first slide, Steven could be shown ACTUALLY improving the quality of life of the child in question by providing either food or water (this is actually easier to fix, because it’s an edit of the existing image). [B]2.[/B] In the second slide, have him staring at an orphanage with a gas can and a lighter, but without actually following through with the action. It IMPLIES that Steven is about to make that very, very bad decision, but without the action occurring. The reason that this might be the best course of action to take, is because it preserves the integrity and intent of your joke." NONE of the audio is being changed at all. It is ridiculously prohibitive and complex for that to happen. The joke is not being changed, the manner in which it is presented is.[/quote] [url]http://www.polygon.com/2013/10/23/5022434/the-stanley-parable-update-in-the-works-to-remove-offensive-images#192770495[/url] [quote=Oliver Campbell]The Stanley Parable is without a doubt a brilliant game, and like I said up above, I don’t think that he intended it to be problematic this way. I’ve no problem with the guy. But as a fiction author who ALSO has to deal with context, appropriateness, and the way your work is perceived, I found that it was my responsibility to speak up about it. That’s pretty much it.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;42636617]uh oh not my "posting credibility" god forbid i lose that my point is your opinion is uneducated and uncalled for. it's nice that you don't think it's racist, but who does that effect, what relevance does that have to anyone? do you think the person who made the original complaint is going to change their mind? the only purpose of this as far as I can tell is to defend your own ego from the concept that you could have been wrong for enjoying something, that someone could tangentially think you are racist, and by posting your opinion here in this "safe zone" where everyone shares the same opinion that this is not racist you'll be comforted in thinking you're not alone and that you're not a bad person. There's a huge difference between just saying "i think this guy is wrong" in a public forum and actually talking to the guy and having a discussion with him about why he is wrong, which is the difference between what you and I are doing.[/QUOTE] I think you're really thinking about this too much and trying far too hard to dive into pseudo psychology The think about the people that are calling it racist is they know nothing about the joke itself and are comparing it to the actual lynching of black people it doesn't take a genius to spot these idiots. And you can laugh at a racist joke without actually really being racist (I've actually done this a lot, same for gay jokes) [QUOTE=Vedicardi;42636617]all you have to do is understand the base concepts of it. you, however, are clearly completely ignorant in regards to the subject as you have resorted to making what I really can only assume are jokes regarding what/who are commonly accepted as authorities on the topic of racism. you don't have to be a complete authority to make a judgement on something, but you, personally, clearly know absolutely nothing about it. that was my point.[/QUOTE] I know nothing about racism? holy shit you do realize the entire point of a forum is to discuss a topic and this just happens to be a topic. The people crying foul are the ones who know absolutely nothing about what is and isn't a racist joke.
[QUOTE=J!NX;42636648]I think you're really thinking about this too much and trying far too hard to dive into pseudo psychology The think about the people that are calling it racist is they know nothing about the joke itself and are comparing it to the actual lynching of black people it doesn't take a genius to spot these idiots. And you can laugh at a racist joke without actually really being racist (I've actually done this a lot, same for gay jokes)[/QUOTE] well i guess im glad you've justified it to yourself. well done. sorry for "thinking too much" lol god forbid [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] idk you're not even making a point other than "its not racist" and "people who think this is racist dont get it" you're free to discuss it, buddy, no one is stopping you, but funnily enough im free to say you are completely uneducated on the topic at hand just read 3nonetwo's post and try thinking. it's not that hard
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;42636657]well i guess im glad you've justified it to yourself. well done. sorry for "thinking too much" lol god forbid[/QUOTE] You're trying to make it sound and if we're calling it not-racist out of fear of being called racist ourselves and over analyzing what everyone is actually saying. You're pretty much just being cynical. "that someone could tangentially think you are racist" if one is not racist then this shouldn't really be a problem with them, because no one is that stupid. Most people didn't even think about race at the time of seeing the joke [B]because they aren't racist[/B] and they know it. I do'nt even know where the fuck you got " by posting your opinion here in this "safe zone" where everyone shares the same opinion that this is not racist you'll be comforted in thinking you're not alone and that you're not a bad person." but you aren't an authority on psychology and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. You don't have to be a complete authority to make a judgement on something, but you, personally, clearly know absolutely nothing about it. Really, what are you even doing. [QUOTE=Vedicardi;42636657] idk you're not even making a point other than "its not racist" and "people who think this is racist dont get it" you're free to discuss it, buddy, no one is stopping you, but funnily enough im free to say you are completely uneducated on the topic at hand just read 3nonetwo's post and try thinking. it's not that hard[/QUOTE] and why am I "Uneducated"? How am I "Not an authority on racism" Jesus you sound so arrogant when you say that. :v: You have no idea how much I know about racism or how much I take racism seriously at all. You're going purely on assumption. It wasn't the intent of the devs to be racist but there was a misunderstanding of racism. You can especially see the devs meant to harm as they are removing it. They felt maybe "it could have looked racist but just to be safe" I'd argue you're doing a backwards "Don't hate the food if you aint a chef!" But apparently you have a PHD in psychology and "racism". So, guess I'm in the red!
do these people have anything better to do with their time instead of complaining about """""""racist"""""" jokes in a video game
If hes changing it because he thinks the joke could be funnier that's fines. If hes changing it cause someone got offended I disagree with his decision but its his decision and I can't change that. My post was simply in reply to swilly who was implying that people were going to try and make him not change it, which didn't seem to be the case. I don't want to attempt to change this guys (Oliver Cambell) opinion on it because I don't think its worth it. And no, my post doesn't have any relevance and isn't going to change anything. But neither are yours. [editline]25th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=tempunary;42636726]do these people have anything better to do with their time instead of complaining about """""""racist"""""" jokes in a video game[/QUOTE] He claims to be a video games journalist. So that's how he makes his money, by stirring controversy.
[QUOTE=J!NX;42636648]The think about the people that are calling it racist is they know nothing about the joke itself and are comparing it to the actual lynching of black people[/QUOTE] Oliver Campbell, the writer who voiced his concerns, and [URL="https://twitter.com/oliverbcampbell/status/393344824620765184"]who linked to a Wikipedia article about the lynching of a black child[/URL] (which I assume is in reference to the VISUAL gag, [i]not[/i] the spoken joke), is a black man who currently lives in Iowa.
[QUOTE=3noneTwo;42636813]Oliver Campbell, the writer who voiced his concerns, and [URL="https://twitter.com/oliverbcampbell/status/393344824620765184"]who linked to a Wikipedia article about the lynching of a black child[/URL] (which I assume is in reference to the VISUAL gag, [i]not[/i] the spoken joke), is a black man who currently lives in Iowa.[/QUOTE] he looks indian.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;42636346]and kids cant read books written for adults, as well? just because you dont think they would understand it doesnt mean they wont[/QUOTE]If a kid has knowledge on narrative tropes, then he is in the intended demographic. If he does not, then he is not. This means that, no, it is not meant for "literally anyone". ...Plus I would be a little hesitant to consider a game that sports a gag about invoking an existential crisis on yourself via your own mortality and inability to make any difference at all in the vast cold nothingness of the cosmos for everyone. Mental hurdles aside, that type of shit messed me up as a kid more than gore and guts ever could.
[QUOTE=3noneTwo;42636813]Oliver Campbell, the writer who voiced his concerns, and [URL="https://twitter.com/oliverbcampbell/status/393344824620765184"]who linked to a Wikipedia article about the lynching of a black child[/URL] (which I assume is in reference to the VISUAL gag, [i]not[/i] the spoken joke), is a black man who currently lives in Iowa.[/QUOTE] I don't see how being black automatically means you are an authority figure on racism (Not saying that you're trying to say that of course, you're simply being informative is all). I was referring to that yes, it felt like he overreacted. and I was referring to the fact that he didn't see the entire joke. It very much was making fun of the 50's mentality and calling it irrational. Obviously being a victim of racism helps a lot, but you get the picture. I don't even see the point in linking an article of an actual event to this either. Personally, racism is a very serious thing and I take real, true intended racism very serious, but even if a joke IS RACIST in nature and mutually not intended or set to hurt anyone, I don't see the issue. I mean, I would never actively just make racists jokes, but shit like DRawn together etc that's meant to just bash on everything isn't that bad. [QUOTE=SexualShark;42636860]he looks indian.[/QUOTE] Obama looks slightly middle eastern. Many Mexicans look european. Mixed or nonmixed, sometimes people can look like a race that isn't what they actually are.
[QUOTE=SexualShark;42636860]he looks indian.[/QUOTE] Don't make judgements based on looks alone. Campbell himself has explicitly specified that [URL="https://twitter.com/oliverbcampbell/status/393299987955585024"]he is black[/URL]. [editline]25th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;42636895]I don't see how being black automatically means you are an authority figure on racism. I was referring to that yes, it felt like he overreacted. and I was referring to the fact that he didn't see the entire joke. It very much was making fun of the 50's mentality and calling it irrational.[/QUOTE] Campbell does not consider himself an authority figure on racism. See: [URL]https://twitter.com/oliverbcampbell/status/393296142206656512[/URL] [quote]2. People assumed that I was "speaking for all black people." I am NOT so vain as to think that I represent all black people everywhere.[/quote] He [I]knows[/I] what the spoken joke is. He's even said that the joke itself is funny. The problem is that it was poorly executed, and the accompanying visual gag is what unsettled him. [QUOTE=J!NX;42636895]Obviously being a victim of racism helps a lot, but you get the picture. I don't even see the point in linking an article of an actual event to this either.[/QUOTE] The point of linking to the article is in the similarities. A black child was lynched and charred. Burned. It doesn't matter that it was unintentional, it is a historical link. [QUOTE=J!NX;42636895]Personally, racism is a very serious thing and I take real, true intended racism very serious, but even if a joke IS RACIST in nature and mutually not intended or set to hurt anyone, I don't see the issue.[/QUOTE] The issue is that the joke was NEVER intended to have any racial cues. If you write a joke that has accidentally caused offense as a result, you would do whatever is necessary to ensure that the joke is as clear as day. You want to make sure your message is understood [I]exactly[/I] as it is intended. That is the issue here - The visual cue muddied up the spoken joke, causing offense where it wasn't intended, and so the visual cue will be amended in order to correct it.
[QUOTE=3noneTwo;42636643] [QUOTE=Oliver Campbell] [...] This is straight from my email to Davey (and you can confirm this yourself with him if you like) of the expected change that is coming, this is what should be happening: “1. In the first slide, Steven could be shown ACTUALLY improving the quality of life of the child in question by providing either food or water (this is actually easier to fix, because it’s an edit of the existing image). 2. In the second slide, have him staring at an orphanage with a gas can and a lighter, but without actually following through with the action. It IMPLIES that Steven is about to make that very, very bad decision, but without the action occurring. The reason that this might be the best course of action to take, is because it preserves the integrity and intent of your joke." NONE of the audio is being changed at all. It is ridiculously prohibitive and complex for that to happen. The joke is not being changed, the manner in which it is presented is. [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] Isn't the joke supposed to be that both choices are bad in their own way? Because if so I really don't think that he actually got the joke.
[QUOTE=J!NX;42636895]I don't see how being black automatically means you are an authority figure on racism (Not saying that you're trying to say that of course, you're simply being informative is all). I was referring to that yes, it felt like he overreacted. and I was referring to the fact that he didn't see the entire joke. It very much was making fun of the 50's mentality and calling it irrational. Obviously being a victim of racism helps a lot, but you get the picture. I don't even see the point in linking an article of an actual event to this either. Personally, racism is a very serious thing and I take real, true intended racism very serious, but even if a joke IS RACIST in nature and mutually not intended or set to hurt anyone, I don't see the issue. I mean, I would never actively just make racists jokes, but shit like DRawn together etc that's meant to just bash on everything isn't that bad. Obama looks slightly middle eastern. Many Mexicans look european. Mixed or nonmixed, sometimes people can look like a race that isn't what they actually are.[/QUOTE] this is the part where you research the concept of white privilege (sorry)
[QUOTE=3noneTwo;42636950]Don't make judgements based on looks alone. Campbell himself has explicitly specified that [url=https://twitter.com/oliverbcampbell/status/393299987955585024]he is black[/url]. [editline]25th October 2013[/editline] Campbell does not consider himself an authority figure on racism. See: [url]https://twitter.com/oliverbcampbell/status/393296142206656512[/url] He [i]knows[/i] what the spoken joke is. He's even said that the joke itself is funny. The problem is that it was poorly executed, and the accompanying visual gag is what unsettled him. The point of linking to the article is in the similarities. A black child was lynched and charred. Burned. It doesn't matter that it was unintentional, it is a historical link.[/QUOTE] I agree with you up the the last point. OH NO THIS REMINDED ME OF A LYNCHING ALMOST 100 YEARS AGO! NEVER FORGET Seriously, the Jesse Washington lynching has no relation to this except for the fact that a black person was set on fire. As terrible as it may be it's not like there are people who remember it as a terrible event as much as say something like 9/11. [editline]25th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Vedicardi;42637075]this is the part where you research the concept of white privilege (sorry)[/QUOTE] No you aren't.
[QUOTE=Stents*;42637088]I agree with you up the the last point. OH NO THIS REMINDED ME OF A LYNCHING ALMOST 100 YEARS AGO! NEVER FORGET Seriously, the Jesse Washington lynching has no relation to this except for the fact that a black person was set on fire. As terrible as it may be it's not like there are people who remember it as a terrible event as much as say something like 9/11.[/QUOTE] It is not directly related, no. It was obviously never intended to be directly related. But it is a notable [b]example[/b] of a historical link.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;42637075]this is the part where you research the concept of white privilege (sorry)[/QUOTE] "White people check your privileges!!!" oh come on now you're just being a silly head
[QUOTE=3noneTwo;42637118]It is not directly related, no. It was obviously never intended to be directly related. But it is a notable [b]example[/b] of a historical link.[/QUOTE] How is a historical link in any way important?
[QUOTE=J!NX;42637135]"White people check your privileges!!!" oh come on now you're just being a silly head[/QUOTE] what's the joke [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Stents*;42637088]I agree with you up the the last point. OH NO THIS REMINDED ME OF A LYNCHING ALMOST 100 YEARS AGO! NEVER FORGET Seriously, the Jesse Washington lynching has no relation to this except for the fact that a black person was set on fire. As terrible as it may be it's not like there are people who remember it as a terrible event as much as say something like 9/11. [editline]25th October 2013[/editline] No you aren't.[/QUOTE] im sorry youre dismissive of a very real concept i guess
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;42637181]what's the joke [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] im sorry youre dismissive of a very real concept i guess[/QUOTE] I honestly don't know how there is any link to Jesse Washington. Is it bad to portray misfortune in a video game if the same thing happened in real life? Please explain.
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