[QUOTE=Wormy;48057349]I never quite understand why so many politicians are against joining NATO, wouldn't that be a good thing? Can someone please elaborate about the negative sides, because I honestly can't see them.[/QUOTE]
The biggest gripes are the standardization requirements and that if NATO is called up in stride y'all gotta be in on it too
[QUOTE=Wormy;48057349]I never quite understand why so many politicians are against joining NATO, wouldn't that be a good thing? Can someone please elaborate about the negative sides, because I honestly can't see them.[/QUOTE]Some aren't willing to commit to Article 5 i.e. defence of other NATO nations that get attacked. Then there's not wanting to anger Russia by joining NATO. Probably a few other reasons, but those are the main ones iirc.
Russia, quit acting like this is Crusader kings...
Though seriously, Russia is starting to get out of hand in these situations.
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;48057400]Russia, quit acting like this is Crusader kings...
Though seriously, Russia is starting to get out of hand in these situations.[/QUOTE]
Putin's traits would include Pride, Ambition, and Paranoia :v:
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;48057410]Putin's traits would include Pride, Ambition, and Paranoia :v:[/QUOTE]
Possibly way too much aggressive expander
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;48057410]Putin's traits would include Pride, Ambition, and Paranoia :v:[/QUOTE]
Pride, Ambitious, Paranoia, Cruel, Greedy, Impaler
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;48057400]Russia, quit acting like this is Crusader kings...
Though seriously, Russia is starting to get out of hand in these situations.[/QUOTE]
IIRC the tutorial for Wargame AirLand Battle is with Russia invading Sweden.
Also nukes.
Was getting invaded part of Sweden's plan to piss off Russia?
Go on we dont want them
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48056845]But...
why Sweden?
Not because of neutrality or anything but honestly, what assets does Sweden have that Russia wants? Baltic sea access? Finland has that too and is a border state.
Stop border gore, don't invade people that aren't your neighbors.[/QUOTE]
The pretty borders faction demands you stop your shenanigans Russia and give Kaliningrad to Poland.
[QUOTE=catbarf;48057041]As much as I want to condemn Russia for warmongering the fact is that contingency training against even close allies is pretty common. In the US we had [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_color-coded_war_plans"]color-coded war plans[/URL] providing for the possibility of wars against Canada, the UK, and France. Outright military maneuvers based on those plans could be seen as provocative but the basis for doing them is not abnormal.[/QUOTE]
While it's nowhere near rehearsing invasion of Gotland and Åland, I think conscripts in Finland are usually told the enemy comes from the east.
-snip-
I'm pretty sure this is probably just an obvious practiced contingency. Russia may be scary but this is flamboyant showmanship.
[QUOTE=Wormy;48057349]I never quite understand why so many politicians are against joining NATO, wouldn't that be a good thing? Can someone please elaborate about the negative sides, because I honestly can't see them.[/QUOTE]
As a part of NATO we would have to be ready to join a war if any other NATO member is attacked. This could be anything from Denmark to Turkey. Is it in our interest to be dragged into a war thousands of kilometers from our own territory?
Some people consider it immoral to be part of an alliance with a nuclear arsenal.
Swedish neutrality (well, more or less neutral) has kept Sweden at peace for over 200 years and got us through 2 world wars and the cold war with a much more aggressive Russia (Soviet Union) than it is today.
NATO recommends that its members spend 2% of BNP on its military. This means that Sweden would have to approx. double its military spending compared to today (1.2% of BNP in 2012).
Joining NATO at this time would further provoke Russia and would increase tensions in Europe further. Less possibilities for peaceful dialogue and a potential increased risk for conflict.
Now I'm not saying that NATO is an all out shitty deal, but there are very valid arguments against joining NATO.
Personally I would like to see some kind of military alliance with Finland since they aren't part of NATO either (and Denmark and Norway but they already have NATO so that's very unlikely).
[QUOTE=Swebonny;48056859]Gotland!
[IMG]http://euromaidanpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/What-Russia-Gotland-small.jpg[/IMG]
Note how it together with Kalinigrad completely blocks access to the Baltic nations and the Baltic sea[/QUOTE]
Wohoo. I live in Gotland, and all people do all the fucking time is talking about how afraid they are of Putin. I don't mind cheap vodka and funny looking hats
[QUOTE=Folstream;48058529]
NATO recommends that its members spend 2% of BNP on its military. This means that Sweden would have to approx. double its military spending compared to today (1.2% of BNP in 2012).
[/QUOTE]
Very few NATO members actually do this, just the US, UK, Estonia, and Greece.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;48056829]Yup. I believe that was with the assumption that we'd fight conventionally against a Russian invasion. Then the entire country would fall in roughly 1 week unless we get help. And it wasn't the defense minister, it was the damn Supreme Commander of our armed forces...
Shit's sad.[/QUOTE]
"unless we get help"
Who the fuck isn't going to be on Sweden's side if Russia invades though, NATO member or not.
[QUOTE=Black;48058045]The pretty borders faction demands you stop your shenanigans Russia and give Kaliningrad to Poland.[/QUOTE]
I would imagine the borders would be prettier if Lithuania had Kaliningrad.
[QUOTE=Folstream;48058529]
Personally I would like to see some kind of military alliance with Finland since they aren't part of NATO either (and Denmark and Norway but they already have NATO so that's very unlikely).[/QUOTE]
the scandinavian countries (including finland) practice together all the time
[QUOTE=Lolkork;48057383]we gotta keep being 'neutral'[/QUOTE]
which is bullshit imo
in the unlikely scenario that russia snatches gotland, everyone will be crying for support from NATO
So what I'm getting from this is Russia has plans in the bag to invade and take some more countries, and to stop any potential interference they've drawn up the plan to invade Sweden?
Just as bad as Nazi Germany. It's almost scary the similarities
[QUOTE=Zestence;48057215]Most experts around here seem to agree that these are scare tactics and not actual preparations for invasion. This is technically nothing new from Russia, even if the last time is from the cold war.
Everyone who has been in the FDF can tell you the "enemy comes from the east". So it's not like we don't do the same thing too.[/QUOTE]
What kind of idiot makes a public preparation for invasion?
I mean if its an invasion it's gotta be surprising.
In other news: armies train using various scenarios.
[editline]27th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=TheTalon;48059622]So what I'm getting from this is Russia has plans in the bag to invade and take some more countries, and to stop any potential interference they've drawn up the plan to invade Sweden?
Just as bad as Nazi Germany. It's almost scary the similarities[/QUOTE]
Like, no similarities?
This is the most fearmongery post of the year.
[QUOTE=Cuel;48059085]the scandinavian countries (including finland) practice together all the time[/QUOTE]
Yes, and NATO recently had that huge air practice over Swedish territory.
It doesn't mean we are in an alliance with them where we mutually commit to help the other one out in case of actual conflict.
[QUOTE=laserpanda;48058807]"unless we get help"
Who the fuck isn't going to be on Sweden's side if Russia invades though, NATO member or not.[/QUOTE]
Same was probably said about Ukraine some time ago.
[editline]26th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48057472]Pride, Ambitious, Paranoia, Cruel, Greedy,[B] Impaler[/B][/QUOTE]
Oh clever, his name is Vlad
[QUOTE=TheTalon;48059622]So what I'm getting from this is Russia has plans in the bag to invade and take some more countries, and to stop any potential interference they've drawn up the plan to invade Sweden?
Just as bad as Nazi Germany. It's almost scary the similarities[/QUOTE]
Let's not go too crazy here
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;48059974]Same was probably said about Ukraine some time ago.
[editline]26th June 2015[/editline]
Oh clever, his name is Vlad[/QUOTE]
It was said about Ukraine, just didn't include vacationing Russian soldiers who "vacationed" with their entire battalion, and disillusioned Ukrainians who speak Russian, served with the Russian army, and mysteriously acquired modern Russian weapons from the local shop. With that said, the Russian plan is pretty good. Deny access to the Baltic, and the Baltic nations would be screwed.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48060417][video=youtube;PDnvnPnyaiM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDnvnPnyaiM[/video]
Russians can't invade Scandinavia anymore.[/QUOTE]To be honest, anyone expecting us to repeat the success of the Winter War is delusional, particularly the Swedes if their war plan involves expecting us to take the brunt of anything. The numerical and technological gap has widened considerably, and Russia is no longer run by the avatar of paranoia who executes all the competent officers and replaces them with retarded sycophants.
Our military is there to discourage invasion, to make any attempt to conquer us more effort than it's actually worth compared to any conceivable gain.
I don't keep up with politics but can someone summarize what has made Russia such dick heads?
[QUOTE=apierce1289;48064050]I don't keep up with politics but can someone summarize what has made Russia such dick heads?[/QUOTE]
It's very hard to find the roots, but here's my view.
Historically the Russian Empire was an opponent to Britain and US in the struggle for influence over Europe and the Middle East. I would say it's mostly due to geography. So the relations were always cautios and tense.
Later on, USSR happened. Since it's early birth it proclaimed itself as a political oponent to the whole Europe and US. The monarchies of Europe and the borgoise Europe also didn't like USSR spreading the plague of communist revolutions to their territory and establishing a buffer of communist satelite states around itself.
WW2 happened, USSR consumed half of Europe and sure didn't want to give it back. US did smarter and didn't try to occupy anything, while still forcing the countries they liberated to be dependant on them (mostly by loans). The world was divided in two by the berlin wall.
USSR was a huge dick to neighboors, their own population, religious people, anyone. Both USSR and US supported dickheads all over the world and fueled wars. USSR forced their ideology on allies too, but US didn't. US was like "do whatever you want, just do as we say oocasionally" whilist USSR said "you accept communism as your lord and savior or die, capitalist scum".
Long years after US strategy appeared to be more effective, USSR's stupid denial of economics as a concept lead to a disaster, USSR dissolved. Many ex-USSR countries wanted to be the heir to the red throne, but only Russia agreed to repay USSR's loans.
So Russia emerged as the official heir to USSR legacy and inherited amongst others the main thing: Anti-US stance. That means Russia's political power is based on being the refugee camp for people who dont want to be part of US and NATO party. This is why every US ally is not an ally to Russia and vise versa.
Russian mentality still stayed in USSR for a good 10 years until it started to even slightly change. Russia is basically using USSRish methods. It's establishing a buffer zone of satelite or very loyal states around its borders as a security measure. Ukraine, Belarus, Khazahstan, name any country around Russia. This is a why when a buffer country decides to go West (Georgia, Ukraine) Russia looses its shit. Its a direct threat to security. For example if NATO (hypothetically) put a missile base in Crimea Russia as a military entity would be finished.
So most of Russia power on the global chess board comes from fear and nuclear tech. Thus Russia waves its dick around to remind people that Russia is a big thing. In my opinion its not anymore, but its obviously invalueble for Russia to accept this.
Russia also inherited massive internal problems USSR had and managed to fuck up trying to solve them, so Russia is left without options in external politics.
tl:dr Russia took the USSR's niche of being the oposition to US and it's power relies on being a big nuclear state in Europe, so Russia intimidates everyone around so that people still take that seriously.
[b]However the article in case is unlikely about intimidation, most likely just generals playing their games to train soldiers which is normal practice[/b]
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