• 'Turkish and Maroccan youths do not feel part of the Netherlands"
    65 replies, posted
But understanding or having sympathy for something doesn't mean you agree with it. I can understand why someone who is poor would try to steal, but that doesn't mean I agree that stealing is alright.
this thread entirely backfired on rumbler instead of going down the route of "dirty immigrants refusing to integrate", most people in the thread are agreeing that it's a problem with europe it's extremely rare that someone goes to a country and outright refuses to integrate, what would be the point of going to that country to be honest, even the thread title demonstrates a problem - when you're still labelling them as turkish or "maroccan", why are you surprised when they don't consider themselves dutch? considering the article says "youths of turkish origin"
As if these youths would feel at home in Morocco or Turkey after living here their entire lives. They're Dutch whether they like it or not.
[QUOTE=cheezey;49343347]I also think immigrants creating enclaves is the problem. But I don't think that's very different from what it is like in the United States, altough some people in this thread stated America is the recent succes story of immigration. For example, some cities like Los Angeles also have very large Hispanic enclaves where many people don't even bother to learn to speak English.[/QUOTE] "Don't even bother to learn" I know you probably don't mean that maliciously but that's offensively wrong I lived with a Mexican family while in the states. Even though they'd been there for 15 years, the mother didn't speak English, and the father only did because he'd lived there before. They both worked almost every day of the week, the mom held two jobs, one of them a 2 hour drive away that she had to go to on some sundays. They went to sleep at around 7 because they had to leave so early and always got home exhausted. No one in their right mind would say their English was bad just because they "didn't bother with it"
[QUOTE=Satansick;49343638]As if these youths would feel at home in Morocco or Turkey after living here their entire lives. They're Dutch whether they like it or not.[/QUOTE] I'm from Morocco. Honestly, I don't feel like I'm Dutch. But when i'm in Morocco it doesn't feel like i'm the same kind of "Moroccan" as the rest. It's weird to explain.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49343433]this thread entirely backfired on rumbler instead of going down the route of "dirty immigrants refusing to integrate", most people in the thread are agreeing that it's a problem with europe it's extremely rare that someone goes to a country and outright refuses to integrate, what would be the point of going to that country to be honest, even the thread title demonstrates a problem - when you're still labelling them as turkish or "maroccan", why are you surprised when they don't consider themselves dutch? considering the article says "youths of turkish origin"[/QUOTE] Like Rotherham was that much better with the reporting of ''Asian'' pedophile rings while the perpetrators were pretty clearly Pakistani. Please do not throw folks that are actually willing to integrate, such as the Chinese, Vietnamese and Indonesians under the bus because people who came from the other end of the continent did it. Speaking of that, how is it Europa's fault that there are groups of immigrants who are having a hard time integrating while other groups of immigrants have almost zero issue in doing the same? Seriously, when every other immigrant group who came to this country managed to integrate in one to two generations, why is it that they still have parts struggling after three generations while they had the same, amount of help and opportunities as the other immigrant groups have?
It may depend on European's perceptions of specific immigrants and refugees, and not whether some groups "want" to integrate or not Americans generally get long with all immigrants. Doesn't matter where they come from.
[QUOTE=MisterSjeiks;49343675]I'm from Morocco. Honestly, I don't feel like I'm Dutch. But when i'm in Morocco it doesn't feel like i'm the same kind of "Moroccan" as the rest. It's weird to explain.[/QUOTE] It might not be your ethnicity but it is your nationality, and that means something.
[QUOTE=Jordax;49343693]Like Rotherham was that much better with the reporting of ''Asian'' pedophile rings while the perpetrators were pretty clearly Pakistani. Please do not throw folks that are actually willing to integrate, such as the Chinese, Vietnamese and Indonesians under the bus because people who came from the other end of the continent did it. Speaking of that, how is it Europa's fault that there are groups of immigrants who are having a hard time integrating while other groups of immigrants have almost zero issue in doing the same? Seriously, when every other immigrant group who came to this country managed to integrate in one to two generations, why is it that they still have parts struggling after three generations while they had the same, amount of help and opportunities as the other immigrant groups have?[/QUOTE] have you got any examples of people that integrated with 0 issue vs people that didn't?
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49344038]have you got any examples of people that integrated with 0 issue vs people that didn't?[/QUOTE] It's definitely not just the fault of immigrants that integration is going slow, but if you look at the data (iirc, though I can find the statistics) for employment, there is quite a large spread with mostly middle eastern countries at the bottom, though there is large variation. People from Asia and eastern Europe generally have pretty good employment rates - if I'm not misremembering. I'm pretty sure the data is about 2nd generation immigrants, but I don't have time to check right now. It's somewhere on dst.dk.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49344038]have you got any examples of people that integrated with 0 issue vs people that didn't?[/QUOTE] Well, relatively zero issue mostly. I am from an Indonesian family that came to the Netherlands in the early fifties myself. I think that successful integration also relies on the general willingness of said immigrant group to live alongside the native population. While there are visible Indonesian, Chinese and Vietnamese minority groups in the Netherlands, there aren't really districts that are predominantly made up of them. Crime committed by these minority groups is practically non-existent. Most of them have also lived alongside the native Dutch population from the start. The issue with predominantly Middle Eastern and North African immigrants, is that there is a significant part of them,who doesn't like to interact with the native Dutch population, and other minorities as well. There are districts in the larger Dutch cities which are predominantly made up of a North African and Middle Eastern population. These districts are on among the most crime-ridden in the entire country. While it isn't as extreme as in other European cities such as Molenbeek, Brussel, there is a pretty noticeable rift between those immigrant groups and the rest of the Dutch population. There is also the issue concerning extremism, which has been quite notable for around 15 years now, after the capture of the Hofstad Network terrorists after the murder of film maker and free-speech activist Theo van Gogh in 2004, and lately another extremist group being arrested and sentenced after actively having supported IS, going as far to have sent other extremists to them to fight for IS in Syria, along with suspicions of planning a terrorist attack on Dutch soil.
I think a lot of it also has to do with the distance traveled to immigrate. Middle East to Europe isn't that much distance compared to going to America, or Asia to across the globe.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;49344264]but if you look at the data (iirc, though I can find the statistics) for employment, there is quite a large spread with mostly middle eastern countries at the bottom, though there is large variation. People from Asia and eastern Europe generally have pretty good employment rates - if I'm not misremembering..[/QUOTE] Immigrants from Asia and Europe are coming entirely for work. Many of them want to send money back home or get money to acquire an education and the amount provided by welfare probably doesn't allow that. The Turks that went to Germany, the exact same thing. However people just wondering in illegally and being willing to wait around the fence for years are probably not hard/skilled workers.
[QUOTE=Jordax;49344613]Well, relatively zero issue mostly. I am from an Indonesian family that came to the Netherlands in the early fifties myself. I think that successful integration also relies on the general willingness of said immigrant group to live alongside the native population. While there are visible Indonesian, Chinese and Vietnamese minority groups in the Netherlands, there aren't really districts that are predominantly made up of them. Crime committed by these minority groups is practically non-existent. Most of them have also lived alongside the native Dutch population from the start. The issue with predominantly Middle Eastern and North African immigrants, is that there is a significant part of them,who doesn't like to interact with the native Dutch population, and other minorities as well. There are districts in the larger Dutch cities which are predominantly made up of a North African and Middle Eastern population. These districts are on among the most crime-ridden in the entire country. While it isn't as extreme as in other European cities such as Molenbeek, Brussel, there is a pretty noticeable rift between those immigrant groups and the rest of the Dutch population. There is also the issue concerning extremism, which has been quite notable for around 15 years now, after the capture of the Hofstad Network terrorists after the murder of film maker and free-speech activist Theo van Gogh in 2004, and lately another extremist group being arrested and sentenced after actively having supported IS, going as far to have sent other extremists to them to fight for IS in Syria, along with suspicions of planning a terrorist attack on Dutch soil.[/QUOTE] While I'm sure it's partially a cultural clash from both sides of the spectrum, there's also the fact that white european people generally aren't as afraid of interacting with asian minorities. When taking into account common western stereotypes, there's a more widespread notion that people with darker skin are more aggressive and ignorant compared to minorities of asian descent. All minorities aren't treated the same. People are judged and treated based on their appearance, and generally speaking, if you look middle eastern or have dark skin you will be approached differently as you are percieved as a more threatening person by the general populus.
[QUOTE=Govna;49339531]Is anybody really surprised by this? [url=http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x/epdf]Distrust comes naturally with diversity[/url]. Europe has traditionally been comprised of homogeneous societies-- certainly of ones with radically different histories (in terms of religion, politics, and ethnic constructs) compared against Turkey and Morocco (hell, against the Middle East in general). When you start adding a bunch of very different people into that mix and start breaking up that homogeneity, of course there's going to be problems with tension. People cling to things that are familiar and don't like things that are strange. You're breaking down a natural social solidarity that's been developed over centuries. It's not impossible problem to fix. The Dutch people are going to have to reevaluate what exactly Dutch identity means and remold it in such a way that these people can be incorporated. That, or come up with some other solution that forces them to assimilate. Either way, they can't stay separate like this. Things are going to stay problematic and tense otherwise in the long run.[/QUOTE] Spoken like a true American. This isnt the european way tho.
With the Netherlands and Denmark being quite similar countries, I could imagine that the issue there is the same as here. Many of the prominent members of the second largest political party, the "Danish peoples party" pretty much believes that to be danish, you have to eat pork, drink schnapps and dance around the Christmas tree singing psalms, which alienates a large majority of other ethnic groups. They have a habit of using strong rhetoric on national television, leading to further alienation. Ethnic Danes that do not live in the larger, more multicultural cities, run the risk of getting their only "exposure" to foreign cultures through the TV, and become entrenched in their views, leading to a significant drop in the effectiveness of integration outside of the larger cities.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49343433]this thread entirely backfired on rumbler instead of going down the route of "dirty immigrants refusing to integrate", [b]most people in the thread are agreeing that it's a problem with europe[/b][/QUOTE] That is basically what he said in his posts, how he is upset the government fails to handle it properly. But people are too busy putting words in his mouth to actually read what he writes. I have never seen him use racist names like "dirty immigrants" or "brown people", but those who seem to "defend" the refugees/immigrants, sure like to call them like that.
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;49349686]Spoken like a true American. This isnt the european way tho.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Govna;49340220]Just so we're clear, I agree with you completely. And that's my point when I say then that there will have to be another method used that will "force them to assimilate". Either they'll have to assimilate, or they'll have to be deported. There's a point in time where it becomes ridiculous that natives should be expected to accommodate them at the expense of their own way of life. I would expect nothing less if I were to go to their countries, and that's how simple this could and should be.[/QUOTE] We still have problems with people here in the United States though. I don't know if it's a failure of integration or a result of narcissistic individualism, but there's problems with a lot of people in this country simply being able to see themselves as "Americans" and nothing more; they feel a need to make distinctions and separate themselves as "African-Americans", "Asian-Americans"/"Japanese-Americans"/etc., "Hispanic-Americans", and so on. Identity politics becomes a problem if you let people run too far with it; they stop seeing the bigger picture, don't realize they're a part of it, and start focusing too much on themselves.
[QUOTE=Govna;49349897]We still have problems with people here in the United States though. I don't know if it's a failure of integration or a result of narcissistic individualism, but there's problems with a lot of people in this country simply being able to see themselves as "Americans" and nothing more; they feel a need to make distinctions and separate themselves as "African-Americans", "Asian-Americans"/"Japanese-Americans"/etc., "Hispanic-Americans", and so on. Identity politics becomes a problem if you let people run too far with it; they stop seeing the bigger picture, don't realize they're a part of it, and start focusing too much on themselves.[/QUOTE] I think that is the most basic human nature. If you clone an individual wearing a shirt with stripes and give the resulting people enough time, you will end up with a "black shirt with white stripes" and "white shirt with black stripes" groups. Just like every one of us wants to be a bit special, we still want to be a part of something bigger on several different levels, thus smaller groups in larger ones get formed. Just look at sport, people from the same city get into fights over a football team, or the things like fanboy console wars exist. It doesn't have to be race or nationality, it's can be the most trivial things that can form two angry groups.
[QUOTE=person11;49343782]It may depend on European's perceptions of specific immigrants and refugees, and not whether some groups "want" to integrate or not. [/QUOTE] That is complete bullshit. Everyone who wants to integrate into Europe does so, including Muslims here as students etc. The only people who are not integrating are the ones choosing to segregate themselves into separate communities.
Even though we have places that are marked as problem spots, at least there are no neighbourhoods the police outright can't enter like there are in Belgium and France. Our immigration policy is at least working the social problems.
[QUOTE=AlexConnor;49351746]That is complete bullshit. Everyone who wants to integrate into Europe does so, including Muslims here as students etc. The only people who are not integrating are the ones choosing to segregate themselves into separate communities.[/QUOTE] We have to find the variable that differentiates US immigration and European immigration. I guess there are people who travel to Europe only for economic gain? But people do that when they come to the USA as well and everyone integrates. The only group I can think of that does not integrate are the Amish and Hassidic Jews and they are not representative of the people who move here. I'm just saying that people integrate here, whether they "choose" to or not.
[QUOTE=person11;49353566]We have to find the variable that differentiates US immigration and European immigration. I guess there are people who travel to Europe only for economic gain? But people do that when they come to the USA as well and everyone integrates. The only group I can think of that does not integrate are the Amish and Hassidic Jews and they are not representative of the people who move here. I'm just saying that people integrate here, whether they "choose" to or not.[/QUOTE] Main cause is that 1) most Muslim immigrants in Europe don't want to integrate (want to live in Europe but not be part of Europe), and 2) there are enough Muslim immigrants for them to form seperate communities, which removes the main need to integrate (not a problem with Muslim immigrants to the US because there are far less in proportion to the existing population). A lot of Muslims view western culture as sinful, and a threat to their own culture. Hence, will actively fight against integration, and you've got Muslim elders within their communities exerting pressure to keep people who might be willing to integrate from doing so. And many European countries make this worse by allowing Muslims to run religious schools where the language spoken is arabic instead of forcing Muslims to send their children into the state school system where they would naturally integrate much better. Or at minimum force these schools to teach every class in the language of the respective country, because you've got 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants who barely speak the language of the country the live in. But everyone is scared of looking xenophobic, so governments let Muslims run their own separate communities that barely interact with anyone else. And you wonder why Muslims aren't integrating?
[QUOTE=person11;49353566]We have to find the variable that differentiates US immigration and European immigration. I guess there are people who travel to Europe only for economic gain? But people do that when they come to the USA as well and everyone integrates. The only group I can think of that does not integrate are the Amish and Hassidic Jews and they are not representative of the people who move here. I'm just saying that people integrate here, whether they "choose" to or not.[/QUOTE] Is really all perfect in the US ? Isn't there a "problem" in the US where many Mexicans don't/didn't speak English and they formed their own communities/neighborhoods and stuff ? Just like AlexConnor said, if you move to a country where you find a group with which you share the same background you may end up sticking to your culture more than those people who came there alone and were surrounded with many more different people. A Turk coming to Germany is moving to a country where there are like 3-4 million of them there already. It is quite possible he can live there and not have to interact with Germans at all and he'll be fine. The same goes for people from Ex-Yugoslavian countries, if they move there, work and keep in touch with their cousins that are already there, etc. Is this good or bad is debatable. On one side it can cause independent communities inside the country and influence of native culture on those people is weaker. On the other side those communities can serve as a buffer between two cultures and can help out new people as a step towards full integration if they want it.
[QUOTE=AntonioR;49357203]Is really all perfect in the US ? Isn't there a "problem" in the US where many Mexicans don't/didn't speak English and they formed their own communities/neighborhoods and stuff ? Just like AlexConnor said, if you move to a country where you find a group with which you share the same background you may end up sticking to your culture more than those people who came there alone and were surrounded with many more different people. A Turk coming to Germany is moving to a country where there are like 3-4 million of them there already. It is quite possible he can live there and not have to interact with Germans at all and he'll be fine. The same goes for people from Ex-Yugoslavian countries, if they move there, work and keep in touch with their cousins that are already there, etc. Is this good or bad is debatable. On one side it can cause independent communities inside the country and influence of native culture on those people is weaker. On the other side those communities can serve as a buffer between two cultures and can help out new people as a step towards full integration if they want it.[/QUOTE] and much like european immigrants, mexicans who do not integrate will very rarely do so because they don't want to, like i keep seeing people imply
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49361704]and much like european immigrants, mexicans who do not integrate will very rarely do so because they don't want to, like i keep seeing people imply[/QUOTE] The thing I wanted to point out is that, when there are so many of them, people simply have a choice not to. Sometimes it is not just a question if they want it or not, but do they even need to in the first place.
[QUOTE=AntonioR;49357203]Is really all perfect in the US ? Isn't there a "problem" in the US where many Mexicans don't/didn't speak English and they formed their own communities/neighborhoods and stuff ? Just like AlexConnor said, if you move to a country where you find a group with which you share the same background you may end up sticking to your culture more than those people who came there alone and were surrounded with many more different people. A Turk coming to Germany is moving to a country where there are like 3-4 million of them there already. It is quite possible he can live there and not have to interact with Germans at all and he'll be fine. The same goes for people from Ex-Yugoslavian countries, if they move there, work and keep in touch with their cousins that are already there, etc. Is this good or bad is debatable. On one side it can cause independent communities inside the country and influence of native culture on those people is weaker. On the other side those communities can serve as a buffer between two cultures and can help out new people as a step towards full integration if they want it.[/QUOTE] I'm from Los Angeles and the significant portion of the population that is Latino has never personally caused me any problems nor has it contributed to any major social issues in the city as a whole. Honestly they are the best part of LA... [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] They are well integrated at least where I come from, at least.
[QUOTE=person11;49362766]I'm from Los Angeles and the significant portion of the population that is Latino has never personally caused me any problems nor has it contributed to any major social issues in the city as a whole. Honestly they are the best part of LA... [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] They are well integrated at least where I come from, at least.[/QUOTE] They're well integrated in the sense that there are so many latino people that latino culture rivals any other culture in the amount of people who participate in it. I live in the Inland Empire and my city is just short of being 70% hispanic according to official demographics. My next door neighbor can barely hold even the most basic conversation in english.
[QUOTE=AntonioR;49362109]The thing I wanted to point out is that, when there are so many of them, people simply have a choice not to. Sometimes it is not just a question if they want it or not, but do they even need to in the first place.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but how many immigrants choose that? Do you think there's a sizable amount of people going "Hell yeah I'm looking forward to moving to a country I do not speak the language of, and living in an isolated community for the rest of my life"? Don't you think it's naive to look in disgust at immigrants not intregating yet not asking yourself [I]why[/I] and realizing that most of the time it's not on purpose? That the fact that they're forced into low-end jobs and are sometimes ostracized by locals might have something to do with it?
[QUOTE=Zeke129;49340276]Maybe they don't feel a part of Dutch society due to ostracization from people like the OP who spend literally all day long posting things about how bad immigrants are.[/QUOTE] But people like the OP do it because they don't behave because they don't feel like a part of Dutch society
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