[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;49772730]I think the ideal rule is to have no rules. Bathroom signs should be considered indicative and where you go is still up to you. Cis men should be able to go in to a women's restroom if they so desire, and vice versa, and trans people can go wherever they feel is best for them.
I guarantee you if this was the case people would almost universally go to the normal bathrooms just based on societal shit and at the same time all the trans people or parents or whoever the fuck that might have a reason can still go to the bathroom they want to.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this.
This is the way it largely already is across most of the U.S. anyway. (and businesses etc can start making unisex rooms over many years)
I wish all businesses would make unisex rooms tbh because then they can be double-wide and would be much easier to clean
[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;49771941]this is true, I'd honestly prefer to keep them segregated because I really don't want to see a woman do her business.[/QUOTE]
Then don't follow them into their stalls and you won't have to see her do her business. Problem solved.
When my old school was completely rebuilt, they had these sort of 'open air' toilet rooms, where you basically had a line of stalls against the wall, and then opposite that a chest-high wall with sinks and soap. That way it kind of opened up on the main hallway, and when you walked out of the stalls you were visible by everyone who was just walking through the school at the time, students and teachers walking from class to class or to the cafeteria etc.
You did have like a half-wall of privacy, but that was it. Seemed like the most ludicrous design in the world when I first saw it, but after some time it was kinda like, "well why not?". The stall doors were tall enough, and it stopped people pissing about (pun semi-intentional) in the toilet rooms. It's been many years since I was there, and I was only in the new building for a few months, so I might be misremembering the details [I]slightly[/I], but I can't help but think of that design when people talk about how insecure they are when other people are in the same room while they're trying to take a shit.
Imagine having a whole school passing the stalls by!
Weirdest thing was probably that the gents and ladies were parallel to one another, which I would imagine would lead to awkward situations where you exit the stall and accidentally lock eyes with a girl/boy on the opposite side :v:
[editline]
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I also realise that this doesn't exactly solve the whole transgender toilet issue, but if they made the rooms identical and just called them unisex then I can't imagine there being many problems.
[QUOTE=thisguy123;49772206]it's not a place for politics or anything like that, bathrooms are literally full of shit.[/QUOTE]
And politics isn't? :v:
[QUOTE=geel9;49771524]I'm a bit reserved to the idea of completely changing the way everything works (making all bathrooms unisex) solely because an unbelievably small minority of people are different.[/QUOTE]
Bathrooms are "everything"?
Why are they even segregated in the first place? Even for people with no gender issues, the bathrooms are a pain in the ass at many events because one gender's bathroom will be full and the other will be empty occasionally. It just doesn't make sense.
[QUOTE=phygon;49774430]Bathrooms are "everything"?[/QUOTE]
apparently, given that we're seeing debates about overhauling public bathroom systems.
causing a bunch of larger comfort and potential safety issues by changing the system as a whole does not make any sense.
there needs to be laws that actually allow people to use their identified gender's bathroom, it caters to the desires of far more than overhauling the entire system.
[QUOTE=Dissolution;49774854]apparently, given that we're seeing debates about overhauling public bathroom systems.[/QUOTE]
Yeah debate in the legislatures of red states.
[QUOTE=Dissolution;49774854]causing a bunch of larger comfort and potential safety issues by changing the system as a whole does not make any sense. [/QUOTE]
It's not a "system", many businesses and government buildings already have gender neutral facilities. From what I've read they are even more common in Europe.
[QUOTE=Dissolution;49774854]there needs to be laws that actually allow people to use their identified gender's bathroom, it caters to the desires of far more than overhauling the entire system.[/QUOTE]
This isn't a place for government. At all.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;49760634]Yup, outing students as transgender. That's definitely going to protect their privacy.[/QUOTE]
It's impossible for a nontransitioned transgender to not out themselves the first time they go into a locker room.
Not to mention in classes like swimming for instance.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49774950]Yeah debate in the legislatures of red states.
It's not a "system", many businesses and government buildings already have gender neutral facilities. From what I've read they are even more common in Europe.
This isn't a place for government. At all.[/QUOTE]
Generally speaking, I'd wager bathrooms are significantly less of the issue, in particular bathrooms that are composed solely of stalls. The far more contentious situation lies with locker rooms though. Which is generally what you get in schools. Business and government buildings on the other hand generally just have toilets.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;49774995]It's impossible for a nontransitioned transgender to not out themselves the first time they go into a locker room.
Not to mention in classes like swimming for instance.[/QUOTE]
One slightly unrelated question, though:
Ignoring new students, how is a trans student [I]not[/I] going to be outed? Schools are small, everyone knows everyone. No one is invisible. They're going to notice when Michael starts going by Christine. They're outed the moment they identify transgendered.
Why not go in the same bathroom as your sex?
imagine coming into a thread, deliberately ignoring the last eight pages of discussion, and posting something as dumb as that
[QUOTE=the_killer24;49778850]imagine coming into a thread, deliberately ignoring the last eight pages of discussion, and posting something as dumb as that[/QUOTE]
Ad hominem
Transgender people dress up and try to look as close to their preferred gender yeah? So if you're mtf just use the stalls in the Women's washroom and if you're ftm just use the stalls in Men's washrooms.
sex =! gender
seriously read the thread, this entire discussion is about politicians forcing trans students to use birth sex facilities
[QUOTE=the_killer24;49785092]sex =! gender[/QUOTE]
In many languages they are same.
[QUOTE=the_killer24;49785092]sex =! gender[/QUOTE]
I never said it was, I just asked why they don't use the washroom that matches their sex. You jumped in with other assumptions.
[QUOTE=the_killer24;49785092]sex =! gender
seriously read the thread, this entire discussion is about politicians forcing trans students to use birth sex facilities[/QUOTE]
I don't think many people in the thread agree with that at all, it's pretty stupid.
What many people do agree with is using the bathroom of your [i]current[/i] sex.
Personally, I think you should just go into the bathroom of the sex you look the most like.
If you look like a women use the women's washroom, if you look like a man use the men's washroom. There problem solved. This bill just sounds like it's to stop big hairy guys claiming to be women walking into the women's washroom.
[QUOTE=HB 1008]Every restroom, locker room, and shower room located in a public elementary or secondary school that is designated for student use and is accessible by multiple students at the same time shall be designated for and used [B]only by students of the same biological sex.[/B]
A reasonable accommodation [for any student claiming to be trans] [B]may not include the use of student restrooms, locker rooms, or shower rooms designated for use by students of the opposite biological sex if students of the opposite biological sex are present or could be present.[/B][/QUOTE]
no
[url]http://legis.sd.gov/legislative_session/bills/Bill.aspx?File=HB1008ENR.htm&Session=2016[/url]
[editline]21st February 2016[/editline]
oh, and just so we're clear on sex/gender
[QUOTE=HB 1008]The term, biological sex, as used in this Act, means the physical condition of being male or female as determined by a person's chromosomes and anatomy as identified at birth.[/QUOTE]
I think it's fairly obvious by this point that "muh norms" is the only motivation people have to defend segregated toilets.
[QUOTE=Talishmar;49785291]I think it's fairly obvious by this point that "muh norms" is the only motivation people have to defend segregated toilets.[/QUOTE]
Some people are uncomfortable with pissing and shitting right next to their biological counterparts.
[QUOTE=elowin;49785319]Some people are uncomfortable with pissing and shitting right next to their biological counterparts.[/QUOTE]
I'm uncomfortable shitting/pissing next to anyone.
That's why I do it in a private stall where I can't see them and they can't see me.
Gender and sex in relation to the topic at hand mean two different things.
Gender is what you identify as. Sex is what you are biologically.
[QUOTE=SpartanXC9;49785235]If you look like a women use the women's washroom, if you look like a man use the men's washroom. There problem solved. This bill just sounds like it's to stop big hairy guys claiming to be women walking into the women's washroom.[/QUOTE]
Dude the whole issue is that this article is talking about a bill that bans [I]exactly that[/I]
[editline]21st February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Dissolution;49774854]apparently, given that we're seeing debates about overhauling public bathroom systems.
causing a bunch of larger comfort and potential safety issues by changing the system as a whole does not make any sense.
there needs to be laws that actually allow people to use their identified gender's bathroom, it caters to the desires of far more than overhauling the entire system.[/QUOTE]
What potential safety issues? There is no "system", it's just a thing that people began doing. In most states, there are no laws at all on the matter.
Just spend like 3 bucks per bathroom, install these, and be done with it. My school did it and there have been 0 problems.
[t]http://cliparts.co/cliparts/kc8/ngX/kc8ngXKzi.jpg[/t]
The South Dakota governor vetoed the bill.
[url]http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/03/01/468732723/south-dakota-s-transgender-bathroom-bill-hits-deadline-for-governor[/url]
[quote]After the bill was approved by a 20-15 vote in the state Senate last month, its opponents held protests and questioned lawmakers about it. Daugaard, who in the past had said that he saw the legislation as providing accommodations for both sides, had also met with transgender students and parents.
"I heard their personal stories," Daugaard said after those meetings, according to SDPB. "And so I saw things through their eyes in that sense. I had read other personal stories. Certainly I'm getting personal stories through the emails, and through what I read in the paper."[/quote]
[QUOTE=Swiket;49847113]The South Dakota governor vetoed the bill.
[url]http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/03/01/468732723/south-dakota-s-transgender-bathroom-bill-hits-deadline-for-governor[/url][/QUOTE]
Thats great news
[QUOTE=Melnek;49761641]also the wording is deliberate, because i do not believe linguistics should cater to the mental state of the individual. in a hospital for example, in a situation that requires gender identification of the patient they will label you a male even if you're wearing a wig or take hormone supplements or identify as a female. i feel more comfortable by using nouns that portray the individuals natural gender i.e the ones they were born with.[/QUOTE]
There are women who were born with female looking genitalia, but have XY chromosomes (which is what a man usually has).
I think they have to tell the doctor about those problems, but they are still treated as a Woman.
I don't even get why we've got gender seperate bathrooms? Is it just because "boo men pee everywhere"
Just have one big bathroom where everyone does their shit, literally - everyone's in stalls anyways so it's not like it'll matter.
[QUOTE=Tools;49860015]I don't even get why we've got gender seperate bathrooms? Is it just because "boo men pee everywhere"
Just have one big bathroom where everyone does their shit, literally - everyone's in stalls anyways so it's not like it'll matter.[/QUOTE]
Again, a lot of it comes down to the irrational western taboo surrounding human genitalia. Most of the people against unisex bathrooms can't actually come up with a reason beyond "I might see penis/vagina"
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