[QUOTE=Shovel Mech;49760842]I wouldn't trust a high-school student in the midst of puberty to make a permanent, life changing decision in regards to their gender identity.
Even among adults, you have cases of people who later regret the decision to transition.
How about we not diagnose gender dysphoria at all until you're an adult?
That's the thing though. Most people aren't accepting, and regardless of what you or I think about it we have to accommodate the majority. Trying to force social change only backfires.[/QUOTE]
I'd prefer to allow a small number to make the wrong decision over preventing a larger number to make the correct one. Consider outcomes, too. The intent most have in transition is to successfully operate as their ideal gender in everyday life. The less effect the "wrong" hormones have on development, the better this happens, particularly with the large/irreversible effects testosterone has. You have people at 18 already bemoaning it's "too late" + giving up, because of expenses+time of hair removal and voice retraining.
Literally no one wins in these situations. Its such a double edged sword that [I]nobody[/I] is equally pleased with a solution.
[QUOTE=Levithan;49760734]I thought maybe capitalizing random words this time would help convey that I'm being facetious, nest time I'll try putting a :dog: at the end and see how people react then.
But seriously the faceless monsters who run the world that are The Cis :dog: need to get over their baseless fears and let normal people just friggin' pee in whatever restroom they want already. Shit's hard enough as it is without the CISTEM'S LAWS :dog: bearing down upon us.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what you're trying to do here by sticking meme cats in your post, but sarcasm often doesn't come across well on the internet. Going to the opposite extreme and trying hard to make it look like your not serious is even worse.
A trans person got kicked out of the bar here in Vermont while I was there, and this is supposed to be one of the most progressive places. Turns out the situation was making a lot of people uncomfortable in the women's bathroom, and that they had a massive boner under their dress.
I mean, I guess the bar had no choice if it was actively making people upset.
Same reason how there's no law against public nudity here, but if you go out naked you'll be arrested for disturbing the peace or something.
tbh if you get uncomfortable with who is in the bathroom with you, thats 100% [B]your[/B] problem and [B]you[/B] need to get over it yourself. if you think otherwise, youre wrong. plain and simple.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;49760894]It's a joke u twit
anyone who thinks cis people get blamed for anything needs to get off the internet for once[/QUOTE]
I remember a trans thread a while ago about crossdressers. It was full of hate from transpeople. I would honestly not be surprised if this "cis-scum" stuff was genuine.
[QUOTE=Shovel Mech;49760806]Replace penis with beard or any other definitively masculine feature that a biological male might posses.[/QUOTE]
So, someone that's transitioning and publicly out to the point of switching bathroom use is going to put a lot of effort into hiding this. You know who won't be similarly prepared? Trans men now forced into the women's washroom.
[QUOTE=Glitchman;49760933]A trans person got kicked out of the bar here in Vermont while I was there, and this is supposed to be one of the most progressive places. Turns out the situation was making a lot of people uncomfortable in the women's bathroom, and that they had a massive boner under their dress.
I mean, I guess the bar had no choice if it was actively making people upset.
Same reason how there's no law against public nudity here, but if you go out naked you'll be arrested for disturbing the peace or something.[/QUOTE]
This is the optimal way of going about doing it. If you genuinely feel like someone using the restroom is making you feel uncomfortable, bring it up with a manager at the business, or the teacher/principle of your school. A lot of places have human resources workers too.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;49760943][B]The status quo is going to go anyway[/B], better to be a head of it and simply ask for medical documentation than to be behind it and have to fight against backwards bullshit like "YOU CAN ONLY USE THE BATHROOM OF THE SEX YOU WERE BORN AS, NO EXCEPTIONS"[/QUOTE]
I don't see how, acceptance of transgenders is going up and this type of legislation doesn't seem to be widespread even in conservative states.
if you think about it for more than two seconds it doesn't even protect anyone against perverts, because it means that someone can look pretty much exactly like the opposite sex but still be obligated by law to use the other bathroom. it literally just inverts the problem and if anything makes it easier to abuse
and they say they're worried about making people uncomfortable lol
[QUOTE=FordLord;49760746]
Quite a few women would not be too happy with, what appeared to be, men in women's clothing using the women's restroom.[/QUOTE]
What of the person is visually indistinguishable from their identified gender? At that point the only purpose a trans only bathroom would serve is to publicly out the individual as trans while simultaneously being a constant reminder of their born sex.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49760961] I don't see how, acceptance of transgenders is going up and this type of legislation doesn't seem to be widespread even in conservative states.[/QUOTE]
I don't have the stats, but there's a lot of effort giong into these, and into defeating any bills protecting against his kind of legistlation. See the defeat of HERO, and SB6443 in Washington.
This garbage is only starting.
[QUOTE=Gurant;49760681]I don't get why not all bathrooms can be unisex.[/QUOTE]
no way in fuck am I sharing a bathroom with men, guys have no idea how to fucking pee in the toilets and it's absolutely disgusting. (And this is coming from someone who has cleaned men's restrooms before, no offense...)
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49760853]Perhaps you should talk about bigots and people with backwards ideas instead of just putting 99.99% of the worlds population into one group and blaming them collectively.[/QUOTE]
Imagine letting a literally sarcastic sentence that was explained to be sarcastic fly over your head at mach II
The dividing line between male and female public bathrooms is a [i]social[/i] one - has been since they were conceptualized. Bringing biology into this is frigging stupid when it has no bearing on the gender you socialize as. We are not basal critters and you can't reduce people to anatomy to serve your purposes. As well, saying that too many people don't understand is defeatist and a disservice to social progress.
But no we'll let it sit at "I'm 99% sure that it's real according to some tumblr blog I made up!"
Merg
I still don't understand why it's that important to people to go take a dump in a toilet that has a little woman in a dress on the door.
Like surely there's far more meaningful ways to assume your gender than taking a shit in a public restroom ?
[QUOTE=Shovel Mech;49760896]Biological women generally don't have prominent beards, penises or other [I]definitively [/I]masculine features.[/QUOTE]
People also generally don't walk around naked in the bathroom. Transgender woman generally don't have a beard.
[quote]There's a difference between racial segregation and this. Racial segregation is not only without good cause, but also detrimental to the minority. Segregation based on gender identity is quite literally separate but equal.[/quote]
You are missing the point. Feeling umcomfortable is not an argument and was used against black people.
[quote]Do you also believe that having male/female bathrooms in the first place is segregation, akin to what black people experienced in the US during the early 20th century?[/quote]
I prefer unisex bathrooms, but that's not the point I wanted to make. Transgender people should be able to use the bathroom according to their preferred gender.
[QUOTE=fudge blood;49760993]no way in fuck am I sharing a bathroom with men, guys have no idea how to fucking pee in the toilets and it's absolutely disgusting. (And this is coming from someone who has cleaned men's restrooms before, no offense...)[/QUOTE]
Are you 12?
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49760999]That's not how you argue[/QUOTE]
im not arguing because theres nothing to be argued. im stating a fact.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;49760994]Imagine letting a literally sarcastic sentence that was explained to be sarcastic fly over your head at mach II[/QUOTE]
The point is that the overwhelming majority of people are not trans and that grouping all "haters" as cis doesn't build any bridges.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49761020]Can you back it up[/QUOTE]
*makes joke online, upsets people* "well uh offense is taken, not given, and" - a statement with wide support
*walks into room, upsets people* "deal with it lol" - sjw tumblr leftist or something idk
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49761014]The point is that the overwhelming majority of people are not trans and that grouping all "haters" as cis doesn't build any bridges.[/QUOTE]
But who is actually doing that IRL and how much of a percentage of the transgender community is it? Can you prove it to me outside of a twitter post or tumblr blog? Can you prove that it's a ~huge issue~ outside of some weirdo on a college campus whining loudly on a megaphone?
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;49761013]im not arguing because theres nothing to be argued. im stating a fact.[/QUOTE]
We're social animals and we live in society so being considerate of others is part of those things you have to do unless you want to be considered a rude asswipe, and that includes what you do in the bathroom and which bathroom you go to.
Believe it or not there's a lot of people who are not very comfortable being in a room with people of the other sex when said room is about exposing your genitals, to a higher extent than the number of transgender people who want to pay the other shitter a visit.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49761014]The point is that the overwhelming majority of people are not trans and that grouping all "haters" as cis doesn't build any bridges.[/QUOTE]
I am pretty sure Levithan is not trying to attack you, me, or any other cis people as a true collective. Rather, she was making a joke with the kernel of truth within being that Western society's "default" is cisgender, heterosexual people, and that there is a huge tangle of interconnected networks that serve (pardon for such a teleological word) to oppress trans people even without individual cis people actively hating on them. Instead, the oppression pretty much comes from general ignorance and a relative few prominent, actual bigots who are supported by the state of affairs in society. So, Levithan used metonymy to refer to not all cis people, but the general "cloud" if you will of ignorance and anti-trans sentiment perpetuated by cis people as a whole.
And, obviously, without the prior understanding of what is meant, or without context, I get that people can raise their hackles at the seemingly personal contempt, like "Wow I was just going to help you guys out but now you were mean to me so not anymore!" But trans people suffer a lot of grief and frustration, and people can say rude things when they are so deeply hurt. What I am saying is, it is the responsibility of the potential allies to shift their paradigm. Being an ally is not supposed to be for the benefit of the ally, and you will not be personally recognized or celebrated. It is an entirely altruistic action and it is what is needed. Mutual understanding will come from putting a foot forward and helping even if somebody seems to be saying mean things. Just smooth over it and don't jerk your knee, because you can bring the world closer, however minutely, to be a place where people don't talk about "The Cis" in a way you don't like. If that's any incentive.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49761032]We're social animals and we live in society so being considerate of others is part of those things you have to do unless you want to be considered a rude asswipe, and that includes what you do in the bathroom and which bathroom you go to.
Believe it or not there's a lot of people who are not very comfortable being in a room with people of the other sex when said room is about exposing your genitals, to a higher extent than the number of transgender people who want to pay the other shitter a visit.[/QUOTE]
So what would you have us do then? If its illegal for us trans people to use the bathroom consistent with their identified gender then where would you havve us go? A transwoman in the mens room is far more likely to cause a potentially dangerous situation then simply letting her use the womans room. Same goes for a transman.
Its also asinine to think that every establishment would have a gender neutral bathroom. Where should we go shit? In the fucking alleyway outside?
[QUOTE=Shovel Mech;49760896]Biological women generally don't have prominent beards, penises or other [I]definitively [/I]masculine features.
[/QUOTE]
A transwoman trying to use the women's restroom wouldn't have a beard at all. And I really don't get your fixation on penises considering, as previously stated, women's restrooms are entirely stalls. No one is going to be seeing anyone's genitalia outside of their own.
[QUOTE]There's a difference between racial segregation and this. Racial segregation is not only without good cause, but also detrimental to the minority. Segregation based on gender identity is quite literally separate but equal.
Do you also believe that having male/female bathrooms in the first place is segregation, akin to what black people experienced in the US during the early 20th century?[/quote]
This [i]is[/i] without good cause and detrimental to the minority. On one side you have a few uncomfortable students, whose discomfort will go away with time as it becomes normal for trans students to use their desired facilities. And on the other side you have students being denied part of their identity while being outed to their classmates by being forced to use a special restroom, leading to bullying and harassment.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;49760936]tbh if you get uncomfortable with who is in the bathroom with you, thats 100% [B]your[/B] problem and [B]you[/B] need to get over it yourself. if you think otherwise, youre wrong. plain and simple.[/QUOTE]
Yeah those girls who have been raped in the women's bathroom are totally at fault and need to get over it!
I hope you realise there is legitimate concern for people who may feel uncomfortable if they see a "man" enter the women's bathroom. I'm not saying that they're going in there to rape people, but that it is not an easy thing to transition into society.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49761006]I still don't understand why it's that important to people to go take a dump in a toilet that has a little woman in a dress on the door.
Like surely there's far more meaningful ways to assume your gender than taking a shit in a public restroom ?[/QUOTE]
A 'practical' reason would be because this person
[t]http://i.imgur.com/3QAV5Sl.jpg[/t]
is going to have problems if they walk in to a men's room
and this person
[img]http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/causes/3155/3154889.large.jpg[/img]
is even more likely to have problems if they walk in to a women's restroom
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;49760996]But no we'll let it sit at "I'm 99% sure that it's real according to some tumblr blog I made up!"
Merg[/QUOTE]
I really don't get why people try to pretend that this mindset isn't very much active, anyone going to a uni in America will see how widespread this shit is.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49761020]Can you back it up and explain why? Maybe then you'll actually convince someone.[/QUOTE]
im not trying to convince anyone. im stating the objective and irrefutable facts.
[QUOTE=Zet;49761106]Yeah those girls who have been raped in the women's bathroom are totally at fault and need to get over it!
I hope you realise there is legitimate concern for people who may feel uncomfortable if they see a "man" enter the women's bathroom. I'm not saying that they're going in there to rape people, but that it is not an easy thing to transition into society.[/QUOTE]
its irrelevant. the sign on the door of a public bathroom isnt going to stop a rapist, but it will stop a transgender individual. youve accomplished nothing but ostracization to the transgender individual by preventing them from entering.
Even if we were to acknowledge the 'people will pretend to be trans to get in to a woman's restroom and do ???' argument, they can still do that
all a guy would theoretically have to do in this stupid scenario is walk in to a woman's restroom and say "I have to use this restroom because I'm actually biologically a girl even though hormones have made me look like a dude"
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
