Shouldn't it be up to the person? Like, wherever they feel the most comfortable? If you look/dress/act/identify as a man you can go into a men's restroom. If you look/dress/act/identify as a woman you can go into a women's restroom.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;49761122]A 'practical' reason would be because this person
[t]http://i.imgur.com/3QAV5Sl.jpg[/t]
is going to have problems if they walk in to a men's room
and this person
[img]http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/causes/3155/3154889.large.jpg[/img]
is even more likely to have problems if they walk in to a women's restroom[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure if you've successfully transitioned to the point where you look exactly like your preferred gender then nobody is going to look down your pants to check if you still have your icky parts in place (assuming no surgery was done to change it around) and nobody is going to give half a shit where you leave yours.
This kind of law is clearly directed towards people who claim to be of another gender but still look distinctively like a man or a woman despite their claims, because nobody is going to sit at the entrance of the toilets and check on your ID and check if your vagina or dick is legit just to let you take a leak. Consider it a measure against the hypothetical situation where a guy pretends to be a woman just to get a pervy look at chicks in the bathroom, and if that situation doesn't exist and is just made up by paranoid politicians then good job, there is even less to worry about because this law will hurt literally nobody.
Not read any of this discussion because lol, but I want to provide my two cents:
I'm all for LGBT rights, entirely - there's been a lot of progress but there needs to be more. But I can't help but feel the bathroom thing is a pile of shite.
Bathrooms aren't just [i] another social construct way of opressing transgendered people [/i], they are literally a [b] place to excrete designed per genital [/b]. There's a particular reason why mens bathrooms have urinals and womens bathrooms have sanitary bins. They're for biological reasons. It's not about wether you feel like a man, a woman, or dress like that - it's not to do with that. If you have a vagina, use the female bathroom. If you've a penis, use either.
The easiest solution is just to scrap male / female toilets - however there are more social implications than that. What about clubs? What about the unspoken rules, such as:
Because urinating as a female isn't exactly a show-and-tell business, you'll see 4 of them pack into a cubicle at a time to chat;
The [b] one urinal gap rule [/b] that there must be at least one urinal apart from any other guy pissing.
But honestly if you have such a huge issue with what bathroom you have to use you really need to stop being a pedant.
It's a bathroom. To shit. And piss. And remove menstrual products. It's not a source of gender discrimination.
[QUOTE=Zet;49761106]Yeah those girls who have been raped in the women's bathroom are totally at fault and need to get over it!
.[/QUOTE]
Find me a single case of a trans person raping someone in the bathroom. Better yet find me some statistics proving that this is somehow a valid concern.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49761093]So what would you have us do then? If its illegal for us trans people to use the bathroom consistent with their identified gender then where would you havve us go? A transwoman in the mens room is far more likely to cause a potentially dangerous situation then simply letting her use the womans room. Same goes for a transman.
Its also asinine to think that every establishment would have a gender neutral bathroom. Where should we go shit? In the fucking alleyway outside?[/QUOTE]
the only reason a "dangerous situation" would arise is because of -incorrect- stereotypes about ~HORRIBLE MALE RAPISTS RAPING EVERYTHING~
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49761176]I'm pretty sure if you've successfully transitioned to the point where you look exactly like your preferred gender then nobody is going to look down your pants to check if you still have your icky parts in place (assuming no surgery was done to change it around) and nobody is going to give half a shit where you leave yours.
This kind of law is clearly directed towards people who claim to be of another gender but still look distinctively like a man or a woman despite their claims, because nobody is going to sit at the entrance of the toilets and check on your ID and check if your vagina or dick is legit just to let you take a leak. Consider it a measure against the hypothetical situation where a guy pretends to be a woman just to get a pervy look at chicks in the bathroom, and if that situation doesn't exist and is just made up by paranoid politicians then good job, there is even less to worry about because this law will hurt literally nobody.[/QUOTE]
So then trans people are just supposed to hope they look good enough to pass and then just up and break the law and risk fines or jail time
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49761199]Find me a single case of a trans person raping someone in the bathroom. Better yet find me some statistics proving that this is somehow a valid concern.[/QUOTE]
It's about them feeling safe. There aren't many people who are so damaged that they wouldn't be able to see another man in the bathroom, but it isn't an insignificant amount.
[QUOTE=Instant Mix;49761185]The one urinal gap rule[/QUOTE]
This doesn't affect women and there should be a little fence anyway.
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;49761213]the only reason a "dangerous situation" would arise is because of -incorrect- stereotypes about ~HORRIBLE MALE RAPISTS RAPING EVERYTHING~[/QUOTE]
If you think that a transwoman going to the mens room is safe then you're deluded. Same for a transman going to the womens room.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49761199]Find me a single case of a trans person raping someone in the bathroom. Better yet find me some statistics proving that this is somehow a valid concern.[/QUOTE]
That argument also neglects the existance of LGB people. If there's an epidemic of bathroom rape, the hell do we do about them?
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;49761215]So then trans people are just supposed to hope they look good enough to pass and then just up and break the law and risk fines or jail time[/QUOTE]
It is not illegal to use any restroom, no matter your gender
[QUOTE=Instant Mix;49761185]Because urinating as a female isn't exactly a show-and-tell business, you'll see 4 of them pack into a cubicle at a time to chat;
The [b] one urinal gap rule [/b] that there must be at least one urinal apart from any other guy pissing.
[/QUOTE]
[I]which is exactly why transpeople should be able to use the bathroom befitting their gender[/I]. FTM dudes with beards and testosterone supplements are not going to fit in with women doing their makeup or chatting in the bathroom, and might even get in serious trouble for it.
it literally comes down to "do you want a portion of people in the women's restroom to be men or women"
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;49761215]So then trans people are just supposed to hope they look good enough to pass and then just up and break the law and risk fines or jail time[/QUOTE]
There's a ton of stupid laws that even cops ignore because they're irrelevant, impossible to enforce or otherwise too bothersome to apply.
If you're transgender just go to whatever bathroom fits what you currently look like because nobody's going to be any wiser as to your actual gender if you look enough like a man or a woman, but people are going to be uncomfortable and/or annoyed at your presence if you look clearly like a dude but insist on visiting the women's restroom and vice versa, so unless you're looking to create an unnecessary scene just to go and propel shit out of your ass in a ceramic bowl then you're better off doing whatever inconveniences other people the least.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49761233]If you think that a transwoman going to the mens room is safe then you're deluded. Same for a transman going to the womens room.[/QUOTE]
yeah gotta watch out for those bathroom rape/murder gangs man
also, don't reply with a bunch of anecdotal links, the country has 318 million people in it.
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;49761229]It's about them feeling safe. There aren't many people who are so damaged that they wouldn't be able to see another man in the bathroom, but it isn't an insignificant amount.[/QUOTE]
So why exactly are holding these peoples feeling of safety over the trabs persons? Furthermore how would your hypothetical group of ahem "damaged" women be able to tell that the person in the restroom know that the woman entering is trans?
[QUOTE=fudge blood;49760993]no way in fuck am I sharing a bathroom with men, guys have no idea how to fucking pee in the toilets and it's absolutely disgusting. (And this is coming from someone who has cleaned men's restrooms before, no offense...)[/QUOTE]
Lol what men and womens bathrooms are equally disgusting in their own way.
One is not always more gross than the other
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49761255]So why exactly are holding these peoples feeling of safety over the trabs persons? Furthermore how would your hypothetical group of ahem "damaged" women be able to tell that the person in the restroom know that the woman entering is trans?[/QUOTE]
why are we holding the feelings of trans persons over the feelings of rape victims :^)
the compromise of gender neutral singles / rooms in general is fine.
[QUOTE=Instant Mix;49761185]Not read any of this discussion because lol, but I want to provide my two cents:
I'm all for LGBT rights, entirely - there's been a lot of progress but there needs to be more. But I can't help but feel the bathroom thing is a pile of shite.
Bathrooms aren't just [i] another social construct way of opressing transgendered people [/i], they are literally a [b] place to excrete designed per genital [/b]. There's a particular reason why mens bathrooms have urinals and womens bathrooms have sanitary bins. They're for biological reasons. It's not about wether you feel like a man, a woman, or dress like that - it's not to do with that. If you have a vagina, use the female bathroom. If you've a penis, use either.
The easiest solution is just to scrap male / female toilets - however there are more social implications than that. What about clubs? What about the unspoken rules, such as:
Because urinating as a female isn't exactly a show-and-tell business, you'll see 4 of them pack into a cubicle at a time to chat;
The [b] one urinal gap rule [/b] that there must be at least one urinal apart from any other guy pissing.
But honestly if you have such a huge issue with what bathroom you have to use you really need to stop being a pedant.
It's a bathroom. To shit. And piss. And remove menstrual products. It's not a source of gender discrimination.[/QUOTE]
But male bathrooms aren't exclusively urinals. They have stalls too.
Since either sex can use stalls, and both bathrooms have stalls, either sex can use either bathroom.
Sure, pre-op transwomen can't expect urinals in the women's bathrooms, but it [I][U]is[/U][/I] possible to pee sitting down.
bathrooms are based around sex not gender due to the efficiency of the men's urinal.
Especially in a high school, where it is very closely knit, if a student who used to go by Paul is a trans girl and she socializes as a girl (let's call her Paulette for convenience), regardless of what she [i]looks[/i] like - she could have a huge beard for all I care - then it will be disseminated through cliques and squads that she ain't actin' like a dude. So wouldn't it be weird one day for another student John, if he saw Paulette taking a whiz in the boy's bathroom?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49761255]So why exactly are holding these peoples feeling of safety over the trabs persons? Furthermore how would your hypothetical group of ahem "damaged" women be able to tell that the person in the restroom know that the woman entering is trans?[/QUOTE]
If it's impossible to tell the difference nobody's going to notice thus making the law irrelevant.
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;49761252]yeah gotta watch out for those bathroom rape/murder gangs man[/QUOTE]
Trans people are fucking killed all the time. Trans people experience violent crime far more then the baseline population. Being outed as trans in the bathroom can quite easily lead to a potentially dangerous situation. Furthermore even if it doesn't lead to violence it will still quite possible lead verbal abuse or other forms of harassment.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49761240]There's a ton of stupid laws that even cops ignore because they're irrelevant, impossible to enforce or otherwise too bothersome to apply.
If you're transgender just go to whatever bathroom fits what you currently look like because nobody's going to be any wiser as to your actual gender if you look enough like a man or a woman, but people are going to be uncomfortable and/or annoyed at your presence if you look clearly like a dude but insist on visiting the women's restroom and vice versa, so unless you're looking to create an unnecessary scene just to go and propel shit out of your ass in a ceramic bowl then you're better off doing whatever inconveniences other people the least.[/QUOTE]
I really don't think requiring trans people who are just trying to like, exist, do shit that makes them a criminal is the right solution, at all, in any universe, that's a fucking stupid idea
also it doesn't take in to account students
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49761297]Trans people are fucking killed all the time. Trans people experience violent crime far more then the baseline population. Being outed as trans in the bathroom can quite easily lead to a potentially dangerous situation. Furthermore even if it doesn't lead to violence it will still quite possible lead verbal abuse or other forms of harassment.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you're any more likely to be killed or attacked in a bathroom than you are in any other place. Due to the bystander effect you're just as likely to receive no help whatsoever when attacked in the middle of the street in broad daylight than when attacked in a bathroom in highschool.
[editline]17th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;49761302]I really don't think requiring trans people who are just trying to like, exist, do shit that makes them a criminal is the right solution, at all, in any universe, that's a fucking stupid idea
also it doesn't take in to account students[/QUOTE]
Then you could just not make a big deal out of taking a shit and just go wherever seems like the most socially acceptable thing because the toilets is really the last place where you should take your struggle for social acceptance.
This isn't a matter of transgenders being denied basic human rights, or access to public transports, or the ability to receive medical attention or to dress as their preferred gender in public. You're not any less free because society requires you to take a shit in the men's room when you're born and look like a man. You're just required to take a shit in the men's room when you're born and look like a man.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49761313]I don't think you're any more likely to be killed or attacked in a bathroom than you are in any other place. Due to the bystander effect you're just as likely to receive no help whatsoever when attacked in the middle of the street in broad daylight than when attacked in a bathroom in highschool.[/QUOTE]
The danger comes from the fact that being forced to use the bathroom of your assigned gender effectively outs you as being trans to anyone who happens to be in the bathroom.
It is helpful to note again that bathrooms are not split by sex. They are split by gender; however, it is the majority view in Western society, however harmful it is, that penis = guy and vagina = girl; so you get different things like urinals for the boy's bathroom and tampon dispensers in the girl's.
So, it is society conflating sex with gender or vice versa, not that bathroom facilities are actually designed specifically for certain genitals.
[QUOTE=matt000024;49761272]bathrooms are based around sex not gender due to the efficiency of the men's urinal.[/QUOTE]
Urinals are really just a completely arbitrary invention. There's no reason for them to exist in place of another row of stalls. You could just lift the toilet seat and take a piss, or sit down to piss, or whatever. Hell, most guys I see choose to take the stalls even when the urinals are an option because, I dunno, more privacy I guess. If they were really so important you would have one in your house.
[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;49761328]It is helpful to note again that bathrooms are not split by sex. They are split by gender; however, it is the majority view in Western society, however harmful it is, that penis = guy and vagina = girl; so you get different things like urinals for the boy's bathroom and tampon dispensers in the girl's.
So, it is society conflating sex with gender or vice versa, not that bathroom facilities are actually designed specifically for certain genitals.[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure they're split by sex to be honest.
Furthermore society doesn't make the difference when it comes to ejecting waste so it's irrelevant.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;49761331]Urinals are really just a completely arbitrary invention. There's no reason for them to exist in place of another row of stalls. You could just lift the toilet seat and take a piss, or sit down to piss, or whatever. Hell, most guys I see choose to take the stalls even when the urinals are an option because, I dunno, more privacy I guess. If they were really so important you would have one in your house.[/QUOTE]
they decrease the amount of people who piss on seats and in crowded places help bathroom lines move a lot quicker.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49761313]I don't think you're any more likely to be killed or attacked in a bathroom than you are in any other place. Due to the bystander effect you're just as likely to receive no help whatsoever when attacked in the middle of the street in broad daylight than when attacked in a bathroom in highschool.
[editline]17th February 2016[/editline]
Then you could just not make a big deal out of taking a shit and just go wherever seems like the most socially acceptable thing because the toilets is really the last place where you should take your struggle for social acceptance.
This isn't a matter of transgenders being denied basic human rights, or access to public transports, or the ability to receive medical attention or to dress as their preferred gender in public. You're not any less free because society requires you to take a shit in the men's room when you're born and look like a man. You're just required to take a shit in the men's room when you're born and look like a man.[/QUOTE]
So why is it so bloody important to you that trans people be forced to use a bathroom that they don't feel comfortable in if it's "not important"?
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