[QUOTE=Melnek;49761708]okay if you're cold set on the semantics of it then i believe ones biological sex should be directly translated into his gender as well, disregarding ones own opinion or identification. is that any better?[/QUOTE]
Well, no, because that opinion is dog shit, but at least it's more up to speed
[QUOTE=emly;49761686]This isn't a hospital, you're not on-duty in this thread, no one is being provided genetically-dependant medical services.[/QUOTE]
that's irrelevant
and to add, i think this incessant campaign to make people refer to you with the proper nouns and attributing to it such immeasurable importance serves to even further alienate you from the society you so desperately wish to be accepted in.
some trans people focus on all the really non-important aspects of their struggle, nouns being the misdirection's flagship. basically they're fighting a really hard fight with an absolutely stupid reward at the end of it all, instead of dedicating resources to healthier means of winning over your rightful spot in society
[QUOTE=Melnek;49761641]some linked sources don't work and most people that were killed seem to be from really shitty corners of the world, which leads me to believe that it has less to do with them being trans and more to do with them just living in areas with a high as fuck murder/homicide rate
wow a single page of .pdf that makes a lot of claims with no actual verifiable statistics, why didn't you just post an infographic .png while you were at it
also the wording is deliberate, because i do not believe linguistics should cater to the mental state of the individual. in a hospital for example, in a situation that requires gender identification of the patient they will label you a male even if you're wearing a wig or take hormone supplements or identify as a female. i feel more comfortable by using nouns that portray the individuals natural gender i.e the ones they were born with.[/QUOTE]
Gender is an innate neurological component and I can assure you that transgender people were born with that innate neurological component perhaps not matching up smoothly with their anatomy or hormone balance (the exact mechanisms of this "brain map" are unknown, but it is there). The "natural gender" you refer to is called biological sex - a collection of anatomical and biophysical traits that more or less tend to hang around together. In that sense, a person can be more or less male or female in the scientific sense. And it's totally medically relevant! The efficacy of a lot of treatments depends on your body chemistry, etc.
I do not mean to offend, but you are erasing a core component of who somebody is by using "nouns that portray the individuals natural gender". It makes you more comfortable? Think about how degrading it must be to a hypothetical Denise that you would call her a man. Please have respect for people. They are not just playing dress up. You say "identify as a female" as if to differentiate fundamentally a trans person's gender identity from your own; you would just say plain gender for yourself, no? But they are equivocal! They are both straight up innate genders, not put-on facades for show or kicks.
It should not matter socially what sex a person is or what sexual characteristics they have; what matters is that you recognize them as the gender they socialize as - that is, the gender they are, if they are openly trans. You would not feel very happy to be forced to act a woman, I imagine. So do not force a trans person to act like they are cis.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;49760690]inefficient and expensive as fuck[/QUOTE]
How is it more expensive? It's just one big room with only stalls instead of two separate rooms with stalls and urinals.
[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;49761751]Gender is an innate neurological component and I can assure you that transgender people were born with that innate neurological component perhaps not matching up smoothly with their anatomy or hormone balance (the exact mechanisms of this "brain map" are unknown, but it is there). The "natural gender" you refer to is called biological sex - a collection of anatomical and biophysical traits that more or less tend to hang around together. In that sense, a person can be more or less male or female in the scientific sense. And it's totally medically relevant! The efficacy of a lot of treatments depends on your body chemistry, etc.
I do not mean to offend, but you are erasing a core component of who somebody is by using "nouns that portray the individuals natural gender". It makes you more comfortable? Think about how degrading it must be to a hypothetical Denise that you would call her a man. Please have respect for people. They are not just playing dress up. You say "identify as a female" as if to differentiate fundamentally a trans person's gender identity from your own; you would just say plain gender for yourself, no? But they are equivocal! They are both straight up innate genders, not put-on facades for show or kicks.
It should not matter socially what sex a person is or what sexual characteristics they have; what matters is that you recognize them as the gender they socialize as - that is, the gender they are, if they are openly trans. You would not feel very happy to be forced to act a woman, I imagine. So do not force a trans person to act like they are cis.[/QUOTE]
i frankly don't see how i'm erasing a core component of who somebody is by referring to the by the noun that i feel more comfortable in, how does that ruin you entirely to the point of self harm? how is that such an insult to your existence that you recoil in hurtfulness?
it's just a word. it is not my fault that people chose to put such incredible power into these nouns as if they are the unequivocal judge of what you are.
this is fundamentally unhealthy. but put aside this and consider the following; if gender as you say is such a fluid concept, then why put such importance into exactly WHAT gender you identify as? according to you, it doesn't really matter in the end because nothing is set in stone, and a person is by nature never fully a man or fully woman, they may indeed possess enough similar characteristics of the same kind to scientifically be "more" male than female. so where does this utter revolt stem from when people "misgender" you?
if however that isn't the main concern, if what truly matter is what the person is feeling, then i may just as easily claim that i have felt like a unicorn since early childhood and then as i matured started to demand from every person who addressed me to refer to me as a horse and got severely depressed when these demands weren't met. i would be quickly put into a mental asylum. i realize i may be belittling trans peoples current blight with that analogy but that's just because i believe that they are focusing entirely on the wrong things, on extraneous and contentious things instead of combating the heart of their problem, which is them just being weird to society.
You're worried about wierdness but would openly call someone presenting as female "he", in a social situation?
[QUOTE=emly;49761871]You're worried about wierdness but would openly call someone presenting as female "he", in a social situation?[/QUOTE]
i'm not worried about weirdness at all, and yes, but never to their face because apparently this sends them into mental turmoil and i don't believe that my personal feelings on the matter should be heard in a social situation not pertaining to the matter itself, but if it was, then i would probably still refer to them as he only for genuineness's sake
[QUOTE=GmanIsJoker;49760552]And whose privacy exactly is this supposed to protect? Do these lawmakers not care about the way this might make transgender people feel?
The reason that transgender people use bathrooms corresponding to their [i]gender[/i] is because they want to be recognized as such. What this is basically doing is telling transgender people that the feelings that they have, of not feeling comfortable with their biological sex, are not legitimate. I am very surprised at the fact that we are still having these kinds of discussions...[/QUOTE]
butt think of the children! kids as young as 13 might be exposed to male genetalia! (nobody showers at schools though so like 90% of their argument is thrown out)
Aren't schools usually just trying to keep people from being "Sexually Attracted" to things? And then aren't a good deal of trans people gay?
[QUOTE=QuinnithXD;49761991]And then aren't a good deal of trans people gay?[/QUOTE]
Then should we put gay students in the bathrooms with the opposite of their gender? Because by that logic, we should.
[editline]18th February 2016[/editline]
Bisexuals will have to go pee somewhere in the bushes
Restrooms are separated by sex, not sex at birth or gender. Should they be separated at all, maybe not. There is no obvious solution imo.
[QUOTE=Melnek;49761854]i frankly don't see how i'm erasing a core component of who somebody is by referring to the by the noun that i feel more comfortable in, how does that ruin you entirely to the point of self harm? how is that such an insult to your existence that you recoil in hurtfulness? [/quote]
Well, considering that you are literally using pronouns with the wrong gender marking, you are willfully ignoring a trans person's gender and thus erasing it. Remember that it is not ever a single instance of being misgendered for any trans person, by the way - there are multiple occasions in any trans person's life where they are referred to with the incorrect terms. I think it's weird how you're going off frigging genitals to know whether you should call Chuck a he or a she. And why does it make you feel more comfortable to do so? What is wrong with the alternative of showing respect to people and recognizing their gender?
[quote]it's just a word. it is not my fault that people chose to put such incredible power into these nouns as if they are the unequivocal judge of what you are. [/quote]
Language is how we identify things and put them into categories. Of course words are important, and of course they have an impact. Like, would I be justified in calling black people 'nigger'? Because it's just a word... Seriously though, who would have thought that people would prefer that they get to decide what they call themselves, amirite?
Do you not realize the significance of language? Like, that's how we communicate and express ourselves.
[quote]this is fundamentally unhealthy. but put aside this and consider the following; if gender as you say is such a fluid concept, then why put such importance into exactly WHAT gender you identify as? according to you, it doesn't really matter in the end because nothing is set in stone, and a person is by nature never fully a man or fully woman, they may indeed possess enough similar characteristics of the same kind to scientifically be "more" male than female. so where does this utter revolt stem from when people "misgender" you? [/quote]
Gender is only fluid for those people who are, well, genderfluid or similar, but that is perhaps too specific a topic for now. My point is that it is a deeply rooted phenomenon in the patterning of the brain or something equivalent - it is neurological, for sure, to say the least. I never said anyone was "by nature never fully a man or fully woman" - you are probably referencing the way I was talking about sexual characteristics. I meant no implication of gender; I used "male" and "female" in the biological sense of gamete types, and by extension the sexual characteristics those are generally associated with. What I meant was that, potentially, not all sex characteristics (chromosomes, sexual tissue, whatever) within an arbitrary person actually align with the gamete type "meant" to be produced. So sex is fuzzy around the edges a little bit, most clearly exemplified by intersex people.
Gender, though. Gender is, again, not the biological concept of sex. It is a deeply personal, deeply rooted neurological phenomenon. You know your gender, don't you? You're sure of it. So are trans people! What I mean to say is, it's not your position to decide whether someone is a guy or a girl or whatever. It's theirs.
[quote]if however that isn't the main concern, if what truly matter is what the person is feeling, then i may just as easily claim that i have felt like a unicorn since early childhood and then as i matured started to demand from every person who addressed me to refer to me as a horse and got severely depressed when these demands weren't met. i would be quickly put into a mental asylum. i realize i may be belittling trans peoples current blight with that analogy but that's just because i believe that they are focusing entirely on the wrong things, on extraneous and contentious things instead of combating the heart of their problem, which is them just being weird to society.[/QUOTE]
A neurological condition =/= saying you're a unicorn, sorry. Like, wow, don't put such a deliberately false whimsy on the same tier of legitimacy as being trans. It is a [i]process[/i] to come out and transition, and you are almost directly stating that it is the same as saying you're an attack helicopter all of a sudden. Come on. But please tell me the bigger picture that trans people are missing out on. I am sure that the trans community here will be glad to hear your wisdom.
snip
[QUOTE=Svinnik;49760690]inefficient and expensive as fuck[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=matt000024;49761272]bathrooms are based around sex not gender due to the efficiency of the men's urinal.[/QUOTE]
Did you even think about this for a second? Gendered bathrooms are technically no more than unisex bathrooms with arbitrary restrictions on who can use them.
If bathroom A is full while B is not, A type people will start piling up no matter where urinals are. Any efficiency gained with urinals is lost with restrictions multifold. Remove the restrictions and the whole system runs better, a solution that's virtually free.
Funny thing is that unisex bathrooms are the norm here in most places, and where they aren't nobody cares much which you take.
And this prophecized rampage of perversion some supporters seem to believe it; yes it's real. Now that people can poop in the same bowls regardless of unrelated biological features, it's just impossible to fit in any public bathrooms because they're full of people fucking! Who knew it was the only thing that held back our primal hormonal instincts?
What the fuck are people in US doing in the toilets? Sounds like you're used to multiple people using the same toilet bowl at a time, in which case I can understand if mixing genders gets too intimate for you.
"They would peek at people using urinals" This is about exactly as antisocial as peeking over the stall wall, and the person doing it would be in trouble regardless of sex.
Nobody smart enough actually wants to talk about this stuff when it always turns into this shitstorm.
My girlfriend's dorm has unisex bathrooms and when I was looking for a bathroom I was completely unsure of whether or not I was about to walk into the women's room.
yeah but I think that this is a stupid law I think transgender people should have whatever bathrooms makes them more comfortable.
Even if you think that bathrooms should be separated based on genitals you gotta admit it's ridiculous for this to be a law. Like what's wrong with schools having their own bathroom policies?
[QUOTE=RichyZ;49762278]idk about europe but it's not uncommon to see at least 1 stall in every public restroom be fucking disgusting
i.e. someone shitting on the seat itself or piss/shit on the walls is a common occurrence
it's like people regress into cavemen upon crossing the threshold into the stall, then regain their modernity once they get out of it[/QUOTE]
fucked up stalls are a universal thing. the first alien species we encounter that has developed shitters will probably have the same problem. fuckers just refuse to aim or clean up after themselves.
my old university recently installed unisex toilets in the on-campus nightclub/ performance venue. being alumni i got to keep up with the news on it, and it was met with an outcry of "but girlllsssss!!!" from basically all the right-wing part societies, known assholes of the campus and one or two really noisy people not even affiliated with the university. almost all of the staff and student body don't give a fuck about them. and these are toilets where the people using them are generally half mortal, there's a bouncer who hangs around outside the entrance to catch anybody trying to start shit in there, but otherwise everyone seems to agree they are a vast improvement.
the stalls are much less fucked up, it's almost as if people are actually concerned about appearances now potential fucks share the same toilets.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;49762278]idk about europe but it's not uncommon to see at least 1 stall in every public restroom be fucking disgusting
i.e. someone shitting on the seat itself or piss/shit on the walls is a common occurrence
it's like people regress into cavemen upon crossing the threshold into the stall, then regain their modernity once they get out of it[/QUOTE]
Don't remember seeing anything like that in my life here. Worst stuff must've been piss on floor and vomit in sink, and that's been with free to use mall toilets. I've read that public toilets here are much, much scarcer than in US, and almost always only for customers or pay to use.
Regarding this debate: the decision to implement unisex toilets should be a no-brainer, mostly because it would only solve problems at no cost to privacy. (you don't see people's privates when using public toilets, do you? Exception being a the urinal a dick in the corner of your eye, but you're also using the urinal in that case so what harm is there even.)
Public showers are much trickier because there is not even an option to privacy, so you can't solve that by making it all unisex because that'd be a much, much bigger leap in social norms for people to adjust to.
For transgenders the issue is largely avoided because they often aren't comfortable to hang about naked in front of anybody.
Pre-emptively I'll defeat the "sexual tension" argument: what are non-hetero sexualities?
From here looks like there's no other option than expensively make shower rooms completely private, aside from the choice to decide to mature as a culture and accept that people are different and that segregation causes more issues than it solves.
Mind you that bathing communally regardless of gender has been the norm throughout history in many places, up until recent decades. Here it still is, in saunas particularly, and I see it as a positive unifying thing that we should encourage.
Back when I worked at a supermarket many years ago, my coworkers had a horror story about a woman who asked to use the staff toilet. She ended up covering everything in shit. The toilet, the floor, the door, the walls. Some shit even got on the ceiling, apparently. By the time they found out, the woman had already left. The poor guy who had to clean it up quit his job the next day.
Really pressing down on those tough issues ain't ya, South Dakota?
Nevermind that increasing unemployment rate you gotta take care of them nasty old trannies minding their own business. Good on ya, mates!
Fuck off.
I'm sorry but I don't get how people think split bathrooms are a dumb idea. I'd rather just let trans people use whatever bathroom they want rather than making all bathrooms unisex.
[QUOTE=Levithan;49760584]The Cis are at it again I see.
They truly are the world's Biggest Disappointment.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Terrible posts" - postal))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
What a retarded thing to say
[editline]18th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=fudge blood;49760993]no way in fuck am I sharing a bathroom with men, guys have no idea how to fucking pee in the toilets and it's absolutely disgusting. (And this is coming from someone who has cleaned men's restrooms before, no offense...)[/QUOTE]
Coming from someone whose cleaned guys bathroom? Please I'd rather wipe the peepee off the seat than deal with the fucking bloody tampons women like to stick in various places in public bathrooms
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;49760936]tbh if you get uncomfortable with who is in the bathroom with you, thats 100% [B]your[/B] problem and [B]you[/B] need to get over it yourself. if you think otherwise, youre wrong. plain and simple.[/QUOTE]
can the same not be said, then, for transgender people wanting to go to a certain bathroom?
[QUOTE=Cone;49761238][I]which is exactly why transpeople should be able to use the bathroom befitting their gender[/I]. FTM dudes with beards and testosterone supplements are not going to fit in with women doing their makeup or chatting in the bathroom, and might even get in serious trouble for it.[/QUOTE]
always relevant
[img]http://libertyunyield.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Selfie.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Melnek;49761854]i frankly don't see how i'm erasing a core component of who somebody is by referring to the by the noun that i feel more comfortable in, how does that ruin you entirely to the point of self harm? how is that such an insult to your existence that you recoil in hurtfulness? [/quote]
Imagine for a moment that everyone suddenly started referring to you as a woman despite you knowing that you were male.
[quote]
it's just a word. it is not my fault that people chose to put such incredible power into these nouns as if they are the unequivocal judge of what you are. [/quote]
By this logic i could call you a kike and then scorn you for taking offense because its "just a word".
[quote]
this is fundamentally unhealthy. but put aside this and consider the following; if gender as you say is such a fluid concept, then why put such importance into exactly WHAT gender you identify as?[/quote]
Gender as a social concept (ex. the expectations society places upon genders) is fluid. Gender as it relates to what you identify as is firmly grounded in biology (in the case of trans people recent studies show that trans people have brains similar to their identified gender) and cannot be changed.
[quote]
according to you, it doesn't really matter in the end because nothing is set in stone, and a person is by nature never fully a man or fully woman, they may indeed possess enough similar characteristics of the same kind to scientifically be "more" male than female.[/quote]
Identifying people by their biology is foolish. Is it really that fucking hard to use the pronouns the person preferes? What do you lose by doing so?
[quote]
so where does this utter revolt stem from when people "misgender" you? [/quote]
Because its bloody insulting and serves to illustrate that the person misgendering has no courtesy whatsoever. You would not go around calling men "ma'am" and women "mister". Why is it okay for you to do that with trans people?
[quote]
if however that isn't the main concern, if what truly matter is what the person is feeling, then i may just as easily claim that i have felt like a unicorn since early childhood and then as i matured started to demand from every person who addressed me to refer to me as a horse and got severely depressed when these demands weren't met.[/quote]
And here we finally get to the classic "hurr I identify as a train hurr" argument. Identifying as a unicorn has no basis in biology. Identifying as a gender incongruous with your biological sex does.
[quote]
i would be quickly put into a mental asylum. i realize i may be belittling trans peoples current blight with that analogy but that's just because i believe that they are focusing entirely on the wrong things, on extraneous and contentious things instead of combating the heart of their problem, which is them just being weird to society.[/QUOTE]
And how should we go about combatting our issues then? You apparently have such great insight into trans issues ([sp] except you really don't[/sp]). So what should we do?
[QUOTE=Hanso;49765074]I'm sorry but I don't get how people think split bathrooms are a dumb idea. I'd rather just let trans people use whatever bathroom they want rather than making all bathrooms unisex.[/QUOTE]
I don't get how people think unisex bathrooms are a dumb idea.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49766278]So what should we do?[/QUOTE]
Kind of doubting they meant solving "being weird to society" by, say, [I]fixing[/I] society or it fixing it self somehow, and perhaps just maybe we should just stop being trans+everything would be easier for everyone. :v
Hell another thing to bring up in general is how the fuck are trans people going to start raping people in the bathrooms? Most of us are quite uncomfortable with our genitals and at least in the case of mtf trans people who have started HRT have no libido to speak of and are completely infertile.
What are we going to fucking do exactly?
[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;49761529]Mister Sandman is not a dense person, I don't think you mean explicitly to insult her (correct me if I should use another pronoun), but regardless the tone seems slightly condescending; it is clear that you mean there is no specific law barring anyone from going into a particular bathroom. But there are other charges that can be laid given whatever arbitrary circumstances, and in this specific situation, South Dakotan high school students can be suspended or expelled for not following the school's rules. So yeah, there is no specific legislation stating that men are to go to the men's washroom and women to the women's, we can all see that clearly; but people can still be netted for the situational circumstances of a bathroom visit, and it is unfair.[/QUOTE]
ok the second half of that post is all find and dandy but please explain the white knighting at first, like was that entirely necessary and did it sound as bad in your head as it looks on the page?
I fucked up with the law, but being suspended/expelled is -not- because of "breaking the law" (however this law would make it but again, my bad)
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