[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49765318]always relevant
[img]http://libertyunyield.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Selfie.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
AHA! you've plainly disregarded all the ways this legislature makes it harder for men to sneak into women's bathrooms:
[QUOTE=Gurant;49760681]I don't get why not all bathrooms can be unisex.[/QUOTE]
Dude, this.
Seriously, fuck having separate bathrooms. Just give me one bathroom entirely full of stalls.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49761176]I'm pretty sure if you've successfully transitioned to the point where you look exactly like your preferred gender then nobody is going to look down your pants to check if you still have your icky parts in place (assuming no surgery was done to change it around) and nobody is going to give half a shit where you leave yours.
This kind of law is clearly directed towards people who claim to be of another gender but still look distinctively like a man or a woman despite their claims, because nobody is going to sit at the entrance of the toilets and check on your ID and check if your vagina or dick is legit just to let you take a leak. Consider it a measure against the hypothetical situation where a guy pretends to be a woman just to get a pervy look at chicks in the bathroom, and if that situation doesn't exist and is just made up by paranoid politicians then good job, there is even less to worry about because this law will hurt literally nobody.[/QUOTE]
What about high schools? I had a trans man in one of my high school classes and nobody realized it until we learned he was registered as "Megan" or something. Yet despite how convincing he looked, he'd still be forced to use the woman's bathroom based on those sorts of laws. Same thing could easily happen in gyms, clubs, or at work.
All those laws do is make it easier to ostracize transgenders and delegitimize their efforts. It certainly doesn't stop creepy perverts from entering the other sex's bathroom any more than current laws do.
[QUOTE=ZestyLemons;49766610]Dude, this.
Seriously, fuck having separate bathrooms. Just give me one bathroom entirely full of stalls.[/QUOTE]
eh one trough is still fine too
it prevents lazy shits from pissing all over the seats
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;49766903]eh one trough is still fine too
it prevents lazy shits from pissing all over the seats[/QUOTE]
Every story I hear about women's bathrooms is that that won't stop anything.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;49760936]tbh if you get uncomfortable with who is in the bathroom with you, thats 100% [B]your[/B] problem and [B]you[/B] need to get over it yourself. if you think otherwise, youre wrong. plain and simple.[/QUOTE]
meaning trans people can just suck it up, right, because i dont see how being trans magically means they're a superspecial innocent cupcake and everyone should be more concerned that they feel comfortable above everyone else being comfortable despite being such a tiny minority
i dunno i guess maybe i'd be more sympathetic if it weren't for the constant "its MY way or the high way!" bullshit. just go in a stall? no, i want to be in the other bathroom. have my own bathroom that would be cleaner and safer and more comfortable to my feelings? no, i want to be in the other bathroom. no effort or consideration towards any compromise with trans issues whatsoever, and yet its supposed to be some big gigantic surprise when people keep starting to not give a shit and not even bother trying to make a compromise
maybe we wouldnt have such sweeping bills just outright banning this shit if it wasnt for the RESISTANCE IS FUTILE NO COMPROMISE NO QUARTER mindset of this movement
[QUOTE=Bazsil;49767236]meaning trans people can just suck it up, right, because i dont see how being trans magically means they're a superspecial innocent cupcake and everyone should be more concerned that they feel comfortable above everyone else being comfortable despite being such a tiny minority[/quote]
We actually dont know the size of the trans minority due to people still being in the closet about it. As for us being "superspecial innocent cupcakes"... i dont even know what to say. The size of a minority should not factor into the acceptance of that minority anways.
[Quote]
i dunno i guess maybe i'd be more sympathetic if it weren't for the constant "its MY way or the high way!" bullshit. just go in a stall? no, i want to be in the other bathroom. have my own bathroom that would be cleaner and safer and more comfortable to my feelings? no, i want to be in the other bathroom. no effort or consideration towards any compromise with trans issues whatsoever, and yet its supposed to be some big gigantic surprise when people keep starting to not give a shit and not even bother trying to make a compromise[/quote]
All i could gather from this tangled paragraph of text is that you think we're making a big deal over nothing. If you thought about the situation for more then a microsecond you'd realize that trans people using the bathroom of their assigned sex is the worst possible option due to the inherent danger involved in it. If you think someone who is visibly female should use the mens room or someone who is visibly male should use the womens room then you lack any form of understanding in regards to the topic of discussion.
[quote]
maybe we wouldnt have such sweeping bills just outright banning this shit if it wasnt for the RESISTANCE IS FUTILE NO COMPROMISE NO QUARTER mindset of this movement[/QUOTE]
Did you actually think this post through at all?
And there's literally been "TRANS BATHROOM" proposals where it has like an actual trans sign on it. No-one's gonna use that.
And also single-use "all-genders" washrooms, but these make sense+are good, but not common.
[QUOTE=Bazsil;49767236]meaning trans people can just suck it up, right, because i dont see how being trans magically means they're a superspecial innocent cupcake and everyone should be more concerned that they feel comfortable above everyone else being comfortable despite being such a tiny minority
i dunno i guess maybe i'd be more sympathetic if it weren't for the constant "its MY way or the high way!" bullshit. just go in a stall? no, i want to be in the other bathroom. have my own bathroom that would be cleaner and safer and more comfortable to my feelings? no, i want to be in the other bathroom. no effort or consideration towards any compromise with trans issues whatsoever, and yet its supposed to be some big gigantic surprise when people keep starting to not give a shit and not even bother trying to make a compromise
maybe we wouldnt have such sweeping bills just outright banning this shit if it wasnt for the RESISTANCE IS FUTILE NO COMPROMISE NO QUARTER mindset of this movement[/QUOTE]
i find it difficult to believe your condemnation of hostility from the trans community is honest seeing as you find being hostile to the trans community to be the best possible response
[QUOTE=emly;49767348]And there's literally been "TRANS BATHROOM" proposals where it has like an actual trans sign on it. No-one's gonna use that.
And also single-use "all-genders" washrooms, but these make sense+are good, but not common.[/QUOTE]
Personally I prefer the options that dont publicly out transgender people (AKA just letting us use the bathroom of our identified gender or unisex bathrooms )
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49767963]Wouldn't that public out you as soon as you walk into a bathroom of the sex you don't look like[/QUOTE]
Exactly my point? Im mtf trans and at this point i pass pretty easily. By forcing me to use the mens room you'd put me in a situation where its p. obvious to anyone that im trans.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49767963]Wouldn't that public out you as soon as you walk into a bathroom of the sex you don't look like[/QUOTE]
as has been said numerous times by now
[I]yes, that is exactly the point[/I]
this may surprise you but MTF women don't tend to walk around with five o'clock shadow and hairy shoulders, and FTM dudes don't paint their nails and wear frocks. they're no more interested in looking like the opposite gender than the average man or woman would be
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49768289]If you're mtf trans, you would then go in the woman's room though.
Aren't we talking about people not transitioned?[/QUOTE]
They can still dress like their preferred gender.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49768289]If you're mtf trans, you would then go in the woman's room though.
Aren't we talking about people not transitioned?[/QUOTE]
I see what you're getting at now. Honestly the only reason to deny pretransition people who present themselves as their identified gender is arbitrary taboo in regards to human genitalia. Of course the only way you'd see a trans person dick/vagina in the bathroom is if you where peeking over the stalls. At which point there are other issues that should probably be addressed, such as why you're peaking over the stalls
Why are gendered bathrooms even a thing in the first place? co-ed bathrooms prove that they're not really an issue.
[QUOTE=phygon;49768561]Why are gendered bathrooms even a thing in the first place? co-ed bathrooms prove that they're not really an issue.[/QUOTE]
Western Culture has a very big fear that someone will see a penis or a vagina that is not their own and will be ignited with lustful rage.
[editline]18th February 2016[/editline]
Also I can't find them, but there were multiple instances of people defending various kinds of bathroom bills that made the proponents sound like they were a) rather repressed/into some freaky stuff b) worried that everyone else was too
Honestly i cant think of a demographic less likely to start flashing their genitalia at people then transgender people
[QUOTE=GmanIsJoker;49760552]And whose privacy exactly is this supposed to protect? Do these lawmakers not care about the way this might make transgender people feel?
The reason that transgender people use bathrooms corresponding to their [i]gender[/i] is because they want to be recognized as such. What this is basically doing is telling transgender people that the feelings that they have, of not feeling comfortable with their biological sex, are not legitimate. I am very surprised at the fact that we are still having these kinds of discussions...[/QUOTE]
What about non transgender people being uncomfortable with this it's not like there's one side to this argument. It's one that can't be won.
[QUOTE=apierce1289;49768818]What about non transgender people being uncomfortable with this[/QUOTE]
What about the people that were uncomfortable when black folk were allowed to use the good water fountains?
[QUOTE=apierce1289;49768818]What about non transgender people being uncomfortable with this it's not like there's one side to this argument. It's one that can't be won.[/QUOTE]
Can you explain what the source of this discomfort is? I know what it is but i want you to explain it
[QUOTE=apierce1289;49768818]What about non transgender people being uncomfortable with this it's not like there's one side to this argument. It's one that can't be won.[/QUOTE]
What exactly would make you uncomfortable? It seems to me you'd have to invade their privacy to be offended, even in a changing room let alone a washroom
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49767328]We actually dont know the size of the trans minority due to people still being in the closet about it. As for us being "superspecial innocent cupcakes"... i dont even know what to say. The size of a minority should not factor into the acceptance of that minority anways.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, this IS special pandering. Though it's not good that a lot of people would be made uncomfortable, the fact is they WOULD. Why is the comfort of the trans community more important than any other community? This issue is very complex and solutions will not be simple- compromises have to be made (I.E. gender neutral bathrooms).
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;49768859]To be fair, this IS special pandering. Though it's not good that a lot of people would be made uncomfortable, the fact is they WOULD. Why is the comfort of the trans community more important than any other community? This issue is very complex and solutions will not be simple- compromises have to be made (I.E. gender neutral bathrooms).[/QUOTE]
Because it's of literally no consequence to you
It matters greatly to them. Not at all to you. Why shouldn't they be accommodated
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49768870]Because it's of literally no consequence to you
It matters greatly to them. Not at all to you. Why shouldn't they be accommodated[/QUOTE]
What if I said it DID matter greatly to me
It doesn't, but to some people it really, REALLY does. And that's why this issue isn't black and white.
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;49768877]What if I said it DID matter greatly to me
It doesn't, but to some people it really, REALLY does. And that's why this issue isn't black and white.[/QUOTE]
Are they going through a physical, mental, and emotional process that is incredibly intense? No?
Then why does it matter greatly?
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;49768859]To be fair, this IS special pandering. Though it's not good that a lot of people would be made uncomfortable, the fact is they WOULD. Why is the comfort of the trans community more important than any other community? This issue is very complex and solutions will not be simple- compromises have to be made (I.E. gender neutral bathrooms).[/QUOTE]
Expecting every institution and business to install gender neutral bathrooms is ludicrous. So is forcing a trans person to use the bathroom of their assigned sex despite their outward apearance. What should we do if theres no neutral bathroom? Pee outside?
Letting trans people use the restroom of their identified gender is the solution with the least amount of potential problems and is thus, in my opinion, the best solution to the problem.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49760941]I remember a trans thread a while ago about crossdressers. It was full of hate from transpeople. I would honestly not be surprised if this "cis-scum" stuff was genuine.[/QUOTE]
It really is, as someone going to uni it's INCREDIBLY rife. Literal hate towards people who aren't in their group- you get the whole "allies" and "enemies" (anyone who does not support you), and even if you're on their side you're told that you're part of the problem and basically that you are a bad, bad person who can't have opinions and should be put down at every possible convenience because of your ~privilege~ (which funnily enough ENTIRELY ELIMINATES SAID PRIVILEGE)
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49768886]Are they going through a physical, mental, and emotional process that is incredibly intense? No?
Then why does it matter greatly?[/QUOTE]
Because people are strange sensitive creatures
can you really not understand that other people might hold different ideals to you and that the idea that someone with a penis in the girl's bathroom is very, very distressing to them? Just because it's dumb doesn't mean it should be discounted- each side thinks the other is stupid and ridiculous. Doesn't mean that they should be ignored.
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;49768877]What if I said it DID matter greatly to me
It doesn't, but to some people it really, REALLY does. And that's why this issue isn't black and white.[/QUOTE]
Any potential fear anger or anxiety that you may experience due to a trans persons genitalia is likely mirrored at a far higher degree of severity in that individual. To you seeing a trans persons genitalia at most evokes the taboo western society has in regards to genitalia. To the trans person their mismatched genitalia represents a fundamental flaw in their being.
[editline]18th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;49768909]It really is, as someone going to uni it's INCREDIBLY rife. Literal hate towards people who aren't in their group- you get the whole "allies" and "enemies" (anyone who does not support you), and even if you're on their side you're told that you're part of the problem and basically that you are a bad, bad person who can't have opinions and should be put down at every possible convenience because of your ~privilege~ (which funnily enough ENTIRELY ELIMINATES SAID PRIVILEGE)
[/quote] anecdotes about your experience at uni do not lend your argument any credibility.
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
[quote]
Because people are strange sensitive creatures
can you really not understand that other people might hold different ideals to you and that the idea that someone with a penis in the girl's bathroom is very, very distressing to them? Just because it's dumb doesn't mean it should be discounted- each side thinks the other is stupid and ridiculous. Doesn't mean that they should be ignored.[/QUOTE]
Do you know the size of this supposed group of people who would be so horribly affected by the presense of a trans person genitalia? For all we know that demographic could be smaller then the current estimates of the transgender population, rending your point moot.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49768849]What exactly would make you uncomfortable? It seems to me you'd have to invade their privacy to be offended, even in a changing room let alone a washroom[/QUOTE]
I'm not uncomfortable with it at all I'm just saying there are more than likely people that are so how can you say their feelings don't matter? And on that note that trans feelings are more important? Everyone is equally important this is the great thing about America. That's why I'm saying this is an argument that can't be won easily.
[QUOTE=apierce1289;49769006]I'm not uncomfortable with it at all I'm just saying there are more than likely people that are so how can you say their feelings don't matter? And on that note that trans feelings are more important? Everyone is equally important this is the great thing about America. That's why I'm saying this is an argument that can't be won easily.[/QUOTE]
The difference being that the mild discomfort one may experience from fucking peaking under the stall to see if you have a penis is far less then the emotional discomfort the trans person will experience.
Like ive stated if trans people are not allowed to use the bathroom of their identified gender then where would you have us go? Its foolish to think that everywhere will habe a gender nuetral bathroom and using the bathroom of our assigned sex is actually far more likely to cause an issue then simply letting us use the right bathroom. Where would you jave us go then?
And dont say "this is a difficult argument" because thats a shitty copout response
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