[QUOTE=apierce1289;49769672]I'm not trying to prove it disprove anything. I'm saying that there's no sure way to fix this issue and no way to please everyone.[/QUOTE]
Literally all that you've accomplished is stating facts that im fairly certain we all know.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49769714]Literally all that you've accomplished is stating facts that im fairly certain we all know.[/QUOTE]
I'm just bored thought I'd jump into the discussion. My ADHD meds have worn off for the day. It was nice chatting sorry for the confusion. I confused myself for a bit too... Now time for some carrot cake :excited:
The best solution with the least amount of problems is just letting us use the bathroom we want to the other ones have huge problems like:
-Its ridiculous to think that every business owner would be able to install a unisex bathroom.
- It would cause far more upheaval if we were to adopt unisex bathrooms at a national level.
-Banning us from the bathroom of our identified gender simple forces us and others into the even more awkward and potentially dangerous situation of forcing us to use the bathroom of our assigned sex.
-saying you cant use the bathroom of your identified gender until "you look the part" means that we'd have to somehow define how female or male someone looks which simply enables discrimination rather then eliminating it.
In the end the only problem simply letting us use the correct bathrooms has is that it might offend someone if that person is specifically looking to be offended.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49768949]
anecdotes about your experience at uni do not lend your argument any credibility.
[/QUOTE]
Are you just going to keep shitposting or what? I didn't say that it lent my argument any credibility, I was responding to ANOTHER poster.
And just FYI it does feel really shit when all everyone tells you is how privileged you are when in fact you actually get put down for being who you are by peers, professors, guest speakers, litearlly the entire community all while being told they are so "progressive" for doing so. The "progressive" (seen as good by everyone, and will be seen as good by history) movement is really shitting on people who just are OK with being who they are- especially if they are white/male.
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;49769886]Are you just going to keep shitposting or what? I didn't say that it lent my argument any credibility, I was responding to ANOTHER poster.
And just FYI it does feel really shit when all everyone tells you is how privileged you are when in fact you actually get put down for being who you are by peers, professors, guest speakers, litearlly the entire community all while being told they are so "progressive" for doing so. The "progressive" (seen as good by everyone, and will be seen as good by history) movement is really shitting on people who just are OK with being who they are- especially if they are white/male.[/QUOTE]
no it isn't
i'm a white male
no one has ever made me feel bad for that except for extreme idiots which happen to try and make you feel bad about anything.
Nothing about accepting trans people hurts you, or affects you. Keep trying to name a situation where you're actually affected by it.
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;49769886]Are you just going to keep shitposting or what? I didn't say that it lent my argument any credibility, I was responding to ANOTHER poster.
And just FYI it does feel really shit when all everyone tells you is how privileged you are when in fact you actually get put down for being who you are by peers, professors, guest speakers, litearlly the entire community all while being told they are so "progressive" for doing so. The "progressive" (seen as good by everyone, and will be seen as good by history) movement is really shitting on people who just are OK with being who they are- especially if they are white/male.[/QUOTE]
Oh sorry didn't see the context you posted that in. Sorry if I offended you in any way. Also I myself am vehemently opposed to the whole cis-scum nonsense. In my experience those assholes make up the minority of the transgender demographic though.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49769984]Oh sorry didn't see the context you posted that in. Sorry if I offended you in any way. Also I myself am vehemently opposed to the whole cis-scum nonsense. In my experience those assholes make up the minority of the transgender demographic though.[/QUOTE]
You really don't need to be sorry if you offended me, offending people is pretty unavoidable (and imo not really a problem). Personally I've had my opinion on everything from gender issues to political theory disregarded because of my gender, might just be my school though.
not to mention that the way my professors talk about things is pretty poisonous to my demographic whenever possible (lel microagressions)
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49769914]no it isn't
i'm a white male
no one has ever made me feel bad for that except for extreme idiots which happen to try and make you feel bad about anything.
Nothing about accepting trans people hurts you, or affects you. Keep trying to name a situation where you're actually affected by it.[/QUOTE]
ok cool I'm glad your experiences determine mine
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;49770572]You really don't need to be sorry if you offended me, offending people is pretty unavoidable (and imo not really a problem). Personally I've had my opinion on everything from gender issues to political theory disregarded because of my gender, might just be my school though.
not to mention that the way my professors talk about things is pretty poisonous to my demographic whenever possible (lel microagressions)
ok cool I'm glad your experiences determine mine[/QUOTE]
My experiences, too, for the most part. In fact, it's the experiences of the majority of white men.
Your experiences dont determine that of the whole.
Looking at this from a purely logical perspective, bathrooms were designed back when gender was binary. As such, the bathrooms were designed so that specific amenities were available to all the sexes. Pee troughs, urinals, stalls, tampon dispensers, etc
It is now a fact that some people consider their logical gender to not equal their physical sex.
The majority of people do consider their logical gender to be equal to their physical sex.
You can have hormone replacements and surgery but your physical sex will never change. It's a biological fact, so it is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
Which leaves the logical construct gender to be the determining factor in which bathroom a person should use. Now one of the issues is that some people have started to consider themselves both or none or some sort of mix of liking specific things at specific times. This makes it virtually impossible to categorize who uses which bathroom based on logical gender.
If we look at what people use the bathroom for, it's either pissing, shitting, washing hands or perhaps checking your hair. Now the only advantage that males have with their bathrooms is that they generally have urinals they can quickly use. There is absolutely no function of the bathroom that requires segregation apart from some sort of idea that men want to have a cheeky glance at women on the bog. I'm sure there are some people out there that do, but they are a minority.
The most logical solution is to have shared bathrooms with secure stalls. If running a night club, maybe have a stall section and a urinal section. This means men can get out quickly if they just need to take a piss.
I don't think we should mandate that all toilets be replaced to conform to this, but any new toilet should be mandated to have 1 shared space that is secure. Then run awareness campaigns about the new bathrooms.
It might take a while to phase them in, but no progress will ever be made trying to shoe horn in transgender toilets everywhere
The amount of effort put into the transgender shit is frustrating.
Take your shit and get the fuck out.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;49766314]I don't get how people think unisex bathrooms are a dumb idea.[/QUOTE]
Because it puts people at risk of being attacked. And no, I don't mean by trans people. If you think no one is going to take advantage of all bathrooms being unisex you're delusional. I am for letting trans people use whatever bathrooms they want, but not for all bathrooms to be unisex.
[QUOTE=find me;49771147]The amount of effort put into the transgender shit is frustrating.
Take your shit and get the fuck out.[/QUOTE]
Its almost like people put effort into things that define them as a person or something
I'm a bit reserved to the idea of completely changing the way everything works (making all bathrooms unisex) solely because an unbelievably small minority of people are different.
Need i point out again that we dont actually have a concrete size for the number of trans people?
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=PelPix123;49771513]yes, making transgender people feel like garbage is shit, but we're such a small and unimportant minority that infringing on everyone else's rights to privacy for us 0.0001% would be absolutely insane
[/quote] how exactly are we violating peoples privacy????
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
[quote]
i feel kind of alone as a trans person that doesn't support trans bathroom access[/quote]
Thats because being against bathroom access runs counter to a lot of the commcommon beliefs in the trans community. Not to mention that forcing a socially transitioned trans people either into the bathroom of their assigned sex or a unisex one would effectively out that person as trans.
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
[Quote]
there's also the complicating fact that this bill only really affects non-passing trans people. passing trans people are unaffected because there's no way to tell[/quote]
It quite easily has an effect on trans people who pass. Lets say you go to a coffee house twice a week for a year. You befriend the owner and add them on Facebook. On facebook they discover you are trans and have a negative reaction. This person would then quite easily be able to take legal action against you because you technically broke the law. That is but one of a myriad of potential problems that could arise.
This law serves no purpose other then to enable discrimination
[Quote]
I just don't see why there can't be a third bathroom. I see people object but the reasons are never sound. It's just about "validation" and I'm left asking myself [I]when being trans became about other people validating you and not about being comfortable with your body.[/I][/QUOTE]
Expecting every facility or business to install a third bathroom is ludicrous. What do we do in the situations where the owner doesnt have the space to install a third bathroom?
Furthermore a third gender neutral bathroom would still face the problem of outting people who ise it as trans
[QUOTE=PelPix123;49771585]I never said that I was defending the implementation of the bill, just that I don't think proper bathroom access should be a guaranteed right. I disagree with the converse of the bill, not agree with the bill. Generally, constrained to two bathrooms, I'd rather non-passing trans people use their birth sex's bathroom and passing trans people use their gender's bathroom. That's the simplest way to split it.[/QUOTE]
But then how do we define who is passing or not?
[QUOTE=Hanso;49771467]Because it puts people at risk of being attacked. And no, I don't mean by trans people. If you think no one is going to take advantage of all bathrooms being unisex you're delusional. I am for letting trans people use whatever bathrooms they want, but not for all bathrooms to be unisex.[/QUOTE]
If you think bathrooms being gendered solves attacks, [I]you're[/I] delusional. Gendered bathrooms is entirely arbitrary at this day and age.
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=PelPix123;49771593]Generally, we're infringing on the privacy of cis members of our sex. A lot of women use the women's bathroom to get away from men and people that look like men. I just use the men's bathroom when I look like a man to avoid disturbing other women, especially people that I know are rape victims that might have a panic attack from my presence and can't really help it.
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
The easiest way is to just use the bathroom you prefer until people are uncomfortable and then switch. If people are never uncomfortable, just keep going. If they never express their discomfort, then it's not your problem.[/QUOTE]
Even when people do express their discomfort, its not your problem/responsibility.
My privacy isn't infringed at all. If I see a non-passing transman walk into a men's room, I might notice it for being "odd," but I wouldn't give a shit. Especially since, for all I know, they very well might not be trans at all, and instead just a non-conventional looking man.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;49771837]If you think bathrooms being gendered solves attacks, [I]you're[/I] delusional. Gendered bathrooms is entirely arbitrary at this day and age.
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
Even when people do express their discomfort, its not your problem.
My privacy isn't infringed at all. If I see a non-passing transman walk into a men's room, I might notice it for being "odd," but I wouldn't give a shit. Especially since, for all I know, they very well might not be trans at all, and instead just a non-conventional looking man.[/QUOTE]
Of course it doesn't resolve ALL attacks but it certainly helps dissuade them. They're far from being arbitrary.
[QUOTE=GmanIsJoker;49760552]And whose privacy exactly is this supposed to protect? Do these lawmakers not care about the way this might make transgender people feel?
The reason that transgender people use bathrooms corresponding to their [i]gender[/i] is because they want to be recognized as such. What this is basically doing is telling transgender people that the feelings that they have, of not feeling comfortable with their biological sex, are not legitimate. I am very surprised at the fact that we are still having these kinds of discussions...[/QUOTE]
Who gives a toss, those who are transgender have used their original sex's bathroom for years so surely they can use it those few months on HRT till they can get SRS.
Hell if anything seeing as you make it look like such a big flipping deal where one takes a crap, then they can look forward to it as an approval from the rest of the world. "Congrats, you sticked to it, now claim your price"
Everyone's all up in the business of "oh no think of the transgender!!!" but nobody seems to give a crap about the rest of the world, who needs time to understand that one of their friends/classmates are about to entirely re-do their life and will include their persona, gender, entire day to change.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;49771837]If you think bathrooms being gendered solves attacks, [I]you're[/I] delusional. Gendered bathrooms is entirely arbitrary at this day and age.[/QUOTE]
the change to unisex would discomfort far more than it would benefit so i don't see the reason to campaign for such a drastic change. why can't we focus on improving the current system instead of completely replacing it
[QUOTE=Dissolution;49771927]the change to unisex would discomfort far more than it would benefit so i don't see the reason to campaign for such a drastic change. why can't we focus on improving the current system instead of completely replacing it[/QUOTE]
this is true, I'd honestly prefer to keep them segregated because I really don't want to see a woman do her business.
[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;49771941]this is true, I'd honestly prefer to keep them segregated because I really don't want to see a woman do her business.[/QUOTE]
oh please. you already see men doing their business. what's the fucking difference
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49771949]oh please. you already see men doing their business. what's the fucking difference[/QUOTE]
Unless you have a shit/piss fetish, there's no reason to see anyone doing their business.
When it comes to bathrooms and such I like to use something of A "Driver/Car/Service station" approach.
Which is to say who a person is is mostly unrelated to the configuration of their body, a person can be a woman even if they have a mans/womans/robots/trygorians body. However they still need to maintain their body current appropriately. Much like how a driver can be anyone but the car they have still needs to go to the service station every so often.
Just because the service station for your car happens to be in another city doesn't mean you live there, just because your car was made in another country does not mean you are from another country.
And to put a fine point on it, I really don't think where you take a shit should really affect how you see yourself, if how you define yourself is based on how you shit I think you should think about how you express yourself.
Trans people want to be accepted for who they think they are and I get that, I really do but just taking a step back for a moment, I REALLY don't think the toilet makes for a good soapbox to stand on to shout your cause.
How the fuck you see someone do their business through a stall?
[QUOTE=thisguy123;49772103]When it comes to bathrooms and such I like to use something of A "Driver/Car/Service station" approach.
Which is to say who a person is is mostly unrelated to the configuration of their body, a person can be a woman even if they have a mans/womans/robots/trygorians body. However they still need to maintain their body current appropriately. Much like how a driver can be anyone but the car they have still needs to go to the service station every so often.
Just because the service station for your car happens to be in another city doesn't mean you live there, just because your car was made in another country does not mean you are from another country.
And to put a fine point on it, I really don't think where you take a shit should really affect how you see yourself, if how you define yourself is based on how you shit I think you should think about how you express yourself.
Trans people want to be accepted for who they think they are and I get that, I really do but just taking a step back for a moment, I REALLY don't think the toilet makes for a good soapbox to stand on to shout your cause.[/QUOTE]
:what:
this is the most nonsensical argument I've ever seen
as said before like ten times in this very thread, the only difference between the gendered bathrooms is the presence/absence of urinals and tampon dispensers
it's not like in the women's bathroom there's specialized equipment that can ONLY accept vaginas (and transmen can get packers that allow them to urinate standing up too) (or just use the stalls)
[QUOTE=the_killer24;49772164]:what:
this is the most nonsensical argument I've ever seen
as said before like ten times in this very thread, the only difference between the gendered bathrooms is the presence/absence of urinals and tampon dispensers
it's not like in the women's bathroom there's specialized equipment that can ONLY accept vaginas (and transmen can get packers that allow them to urinate standing up too) (or just use the stalls)[/QUOTE]
I think I must've gone off an a tangent and made what I meant to say look like something else...
What I meant to say is that everybody has to take a shit but where you do it should have no bearing on who you are. You used a man's bathroom but say you're a woman? Fine, sure, I believe you but don't make an issue out of bathrooms is what I mean to say, it's not a place for politics or anything like that, bathrooms are literally full of shit.
It should not really be a factor in how people choose to define themselves, who you are is mostly about how you interact with other people, not where you choose to take a dump.
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Combine 177;49772112]How the fuck you see someone do their business through a stall?[/QUOTE]
Have you seen the void of empty space that can show up on some badly maintained stall doors? You can sometimes fit you hand through them.
Here's my advice, use the disabled toilets where possible, much nicer... why can't we have more of those. Big and roomy, nice sturdy door to lock the world out, typically the cleanest....
[QUOTE=Levithan;49760584]The Cis are at it again I see.
They truly are the world's Biggest Disappointment.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Terrible posts" - postal))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
-snip-
[QUOTE=thisguy123;49772206]
What I meant to say is that everybody has to take a shit but where you do it should have no bearing on who you are. You used a man's bathroom but say you're a woman? Fine, sure, I believe you but don't make an issue out of bathrooms is what I mean to say, it's not a place for politics or anything like that, bathrooms are literally full of shit. [/QUOTE]
the only people making this an issue are assholes and politicians
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
why would a woman use a man's bathroom in a nonemergency situation in the first place
I think the ideal rule is to have no rules. Bathroom signs should be considered indicative and where you go is still up to you. Cis men should be able to go in to a women's restroom if they so desire, and vice versa, and trans people can go wherever they feel is best for them.
I guarantee you if this was the case people would almost universally go to the normal bathrooms just based on societal shit and at the same time all the trans people or parents or whoever the fuck that might have a reason can still go to the bathroom they want to.
[QUOTE=thisguy123;49772206]
Here's my advice, use the disabled toilets where possible, much nicer... why can't we have more of those. Big and roomy, nice sturdy door to lock the world out, typically the cleanest....[/QUOTE]
Don't do this, I've had a friend use the handicap stall while someone in a wheelchair had to use the restroom.
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