[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49204181]Bro if you for one moment think that someone who wants a national Muslim database is presidential material at all then you should hang your head in shame and leave this thread. It makes no difference if Trump wants to do all of these other 'great things', a candidate who displays prejudice or racism DOES NOT deserve to be President of this country.
[editline]28th November 2015[/editline]
We don't need another bumbling idiot acting as the figurehead of the one of the most powerful countries on this planet.[/QUOTE]
Then stop voting for people who are corrupt just based if they have an R or a D next to their name. You giving us swing voters garbage to play with. Swing voters are the ones who determine elections.
Swing voters vote based on the person, not who they are affiliated with (or ideology). If Sanders isnt the candidate, swing voters will be voting for Trump.
[QUOTE=JohhnyCarson;49204931]Then stop voting for people who are corrupt just based if they have an R or a D next to their name. You giving us swing voters garbage to play with. Swing voters are the ones who determine elections.
Swing voters vote based on the person, not who they are affiliated with (or ideology). If Sanders isnt the candidate, swing voters will be voting for Trump.[/QUOTE]
if swing voters can swing all the way from bernie to trump if he's not the candidate then it just shows how fucked up our country is
what is this a fucking middle school popularity contest?
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;49204904]It's not that he's the lesser of two evils, you're literally saying "Yeah Bernie has good ideas but he'll never get them done so he's terrible, Trump on the other hand has terrible ideas but some are good and even though the GOP hates his guts anyway I'm sure he'll get all kinds of Congressional support".[/QUOTE]
I never said bernie had good ideas. I think his ideas are terrible because of the fact that theyre pie in the sky. I also never said trump will get tons of congress support. Im simply saying hes better because his ideas make more sense for this country and he has experience as a business man which shows if you actually bother to read his policies.
So yes he is the lesser of two evils. I believe he'll get more done then bernie and if he doesnt ill eat my hat. That is if he actually wins. I feel like hillary is more likely to make it tbh.
Also I should add that bernie has some p bad ideas too like implementing black lives matter ideas into the polixe force like forced diversity and no cameras no funding, which ignores the main problem imo. He also has a shady history of vetoing certain bills which you should look into.
[QUOTE=Jund;49205047]if swing voters can swing all the way from bernie to trump if he's not the candidate then it just shows how fucked up our country is
what is this a fucking middle school popularity contest?[/QUOTE]
Its not swinging if its another point of view incompatible with the other two. As for popularity contest? Sure seems so.
[QUOTE=UtraWalrus;49205136]I never said bernie had good ideas. I think his ideas are terrible because of the fact that theyre pie in the sky. I also never said trump will get tons of congress support. Im simply saying hes better because his ideas make more sense for this country and he has experience as a business man which shows if you actually bother to read his policies.
So yes he is the lesser of two evils. I believe he'll get more done then bernie and if he doesnt ill eat my hat. That is if he actually wins. I feel like hillary is more likely to make it tbh.[/QUOTE]
Trump is a racist sociopath who has had businesses, under his control, declare bankruptcy on four separate occasions. He is a terrible businessman, to make matters worse, the interference of business in politics is 90% of the problems we have in this country.
Meanwhile Sanders proposes policies that are supported by science and he proposes the avenues necessary to fund them.
The notion that "getting things done" is somehow good is sad. Getting things done, when it comes to trump, just means he will attempt to pass awful laws. The US was founded on the principle that it is better to have a government that accomplishes nothing than one that passes bad laws. Read the constitutional convention notes. We were made to be slow.
Words cannot express how bad it would be if trump won.
[QUOTE=UtraWalrus;49205136]I never said bernie had good ideas. I think his ideas are terrible because of the fact that theyre pie in the sky.[/quote]
So is the notion that stripping rights from individuals will result in security (concerning Muslim registration). They couldn't argue the cause for gun-nuts, so like hell you can justify it for religious minorities. "Oh but he will because Muslims are scary!" Well you have the media and hate-mongers to blame for that, what with their whole "LOOK AT ALL THOSE TERRORISTS COMING IN FROM SYRIA!" spiel.
[quote]I also never said trump will get tons of congress support. Im simply saying hes better because his ideas make more sense for this country and he has experience as a business man which shows if you actually bother to read his policies.[/quote]
No, you literally said:
[quote]You should hang your head in shame if you honestly believe Bernie Sanders is going to give free healthcare and college to 350 million americans with congress not getting in the way.[/quote]
If you at the very least believe that not all Americans should have access to healthcare, then you're one of the sort that's more than happy with us being on the same level as those dictatorships over-seas, where the wealthy are the only ones who are well off and they say "fuck the rest, got mine" as the people below them have no access to proper healthcare despite the combined wealth of their nation, and every time you see them on the news, all you can think is "Wow, what an incredibly backwards and shitty country, their government can't even take care of their own!".
But the main point is that saying a president sucks because Congress will oppose them because "You're party X and we're majority party Y so fuck you" is a dumb reason to vote for a colossal self-important jack-ass like Trump, especially when your candidate won't fair any better for the same reason.
And what an excellent businessman he must be, starting with a paltry loan of $1 million back in the 70's (which isn't shit today, but with inflation would be equivalent to about $6 million) and inheriting the rest, while four of his own businesses filed for Ch. 11 so they could get out of paying back their bank loans. What an excellent sleaze-ball whom we can trust with fixing the economy.
[quote]So yes he is the lesser of two evils. [b]I believe he'll get more done then bernie and if he doesnt ill eat my hat.[/b] That is if he actually wins. I feel like hillary is more likely to make it tbh.[/quote]
:toxx:
Also, to assume he'll "get more done than Bernie", you're meaning what, exactly? More done than Bernie would as president? We won't know that for sure until Bernie's served as president, and if Bernie wins the vote for president, then Bernie will have already gotten more done for his presidential term than Trump has.
Also, "getting more done" does not equate to "doing what's right". Remember all those times Obama used executive orders to "get stuff done" because Congress wouldn't work with him/he wouldn't work with Congress (however you want to phrase it) and people are hating him for that? Let's see how Trump fairs with a Congress who'll loathe him no matter who's in majority.
[quote]Also I should add that bernie has some p bad ideas too like implementing black lives matter ideas into the polixe force like forced diversity and no cameras no funding, which ignores the main problem imo. He also has a shady history of vetoing certain bills which you should look into.[/QUOTE]
And out of curiosity, what IS the main problem, and how would YOU fix it?
And what "certain bills"? If I should look into them, you should provide information regarding these specific bills, as I cannot make an educated guess on what you mean without sorting through the thousands of bills he's likely voted against (voting against bills in a Congressional session is not the same level of authority as Veto, BTW, as he is but one of many Senators and Representatives).
I still find it hilarious that this man is running to become president
[QUOTE=UtraWalrus;49204153]You guys realize the reporter Donald Trump made fun of was someone who interviewed him 12 times before and they knew eachother on a first name basis right?
Have you even stopped for a moment and think that maybe Trump was, you know, making a joke that no one cared about until the media latched on it, blew it out of proportion, in order to make Trump seem like a bad guy?
Nah of course not. This joke was a disgusting insult to the whole disabled community. I mean were talking about the next hitler after all!
Wait what? Republicans are mad at Obama cracking sassy black jokes at the white house? They need to chill ok presidents are people too![/QUOTE]
The problem is why would I ever vote for someone who makes a complete dick-hole out of himself on a weekly basis to lead and be a representation of my country
Look man Im a conservative so some things were just going to flat out disagree on. Ill adress the rest of your points when i get home but as far as BLM goes and the police issues here it is.
Police do need to be reformed. But blacks commit more crimes per capita then whites dispite only being 13 percent of the population (correct me if im wronf i cant look up stats right now.)
The main problem isnt a racist police force, its the fact that a lot of black families are destroyed so kids grow up without a respect for authority. Ive seen it and ive been it. (I grew up in detriot and had drug addict parents who died when i was 10). The black community needs to rebuild their families and stop blaming racism when cops kill more whites per year then blacks.
How you go about this i have no idea. But i think religion and conservatism helps. Thats just how i see it though, i can understand if facepunch didagrees with that.
Ill get back to you when i get home.
I'm cautiously okay with trump staying ahead. Does anybody NOT think he would get destroyed in a general election?
[QUOTE=GunFox;49205249]Trump is a racist sociopath who has had businesses, under his control, declare bankruptcy on four separate occasions. He is a terrible businessman, to make matters worse, the interference of business in politics is 90% of the problems we have in this country.
Meanwhile Sanders proposes policies that are supported by science and he proposes the avenues necessary to fund them.
The notion that "getting things done" is somehow good is sad. Getting things done, when it comes to trump, just means he will attempt to pass awful laws. The US was founded on the principle that it is better to have a government that accomplishes nothing than one that passes bad laws. Read the constitutional convention notes. We were made to be slow.
Words cannot express how bad it would be if trump won.[/QUOTE]
i guess some people vote for donald "i will make mexico pay for that wall" trump because he spews the same rhetoric they enjoy having around the thanksgiving dinner table about how the muslims and mexicans and blacks are ruining the country, like donald "small loan of one million dollars" trump is actually a hardworking bootstraps american businessman who will make america great again, completely unlike the rest of the "republican political elite" with their [I]senatorships[/I] and other such trifles (and apparently making america great again is something that all of the other candidates are completely uninterested in)
apparently being a mediocre businessman after being born into a multimillionare family is more important than having any experience in politics. or perhaps it lets highschool dropouts pretend like they have a shot at becoming president. because hey, if donald "more training militarily than a lot of the guys that go into the military" trump, a racist draft dodger who had four bankruptcies despite having the family legacy money to hire the best accountants, lawyers, architects, etc. can make it, who can't?
then having donald "i beat china all the time" trump, a bumbling idiot with the tact of a newborn shitting itself who can't even keep his mouth shut long enough to not lose several multimillion dollar endorsement deals, as the leader of the most internationally influential country in the world is fine
[editline]28th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=UtraWalrus;49205504]Look man Im a conservative so some things were just going to flat out disagree on. Ill adress the rest of your points when i get home but as far as BLM goes and the police issues here it is.
Police do need to be reformed. But blacks commit more crimes per capita then whites dispite only being 13 percent of the population (correct me if im wronf i cant look up stats right now.)
The main problem isnt a racist police force, its the fact that a lot of black families are destroyed so kids grow up without a respect for authority. Ive seen it and ive been it. (I grew up in detriot and had drug addict parents who died when i was 10). The black community needs to rebuild their families and stop blaming racism when cops kill more whites per year then blacks.
How you go about this i have no idea. But i think religion and conservatism helps. Thats just how i see it though, i can understand if facepunch didagrees with that.
Ill get back to you when i get home.[/QUOTE]
why do you only point out per capita for your first statistic? is it because cops kill roughly twice the number of whites than blacks despite there being about 6 times as many whites to blacks in the US?
while your personal situation is unfortunate, it shouldn't be any reason to flock to any particular person or ideology without objective thought because you feel like they saved you. that line of thinking has never ended well
[QUOTE=UtraWalrus;49205504]Look man Im a conservative so some things were just going to flat out disagree on. Ill adress the rest of your points when i get home but as far as BLM goes and the police issues here it is.[/quote]
Oh, boy!
[quote]Police do need to be reformed. But blacks commit more crimes per capita then whites dispite only being 13 percent of the population (correct me if im wronf i cant look up stats right now.)[/quote]
Do you have any inclination as to why that may be? According to this:
[quote] Ive seen it and ive been it. (I grew up in detriot and had drug addict parents who died when i was 10).[/quote]
You've witnessed it first-hand, so if anybody knows exactly what the source of the problem is, it should be you.
[quote]The main problem isnt a racist police force, its the fact that a lot of black families are destroyed so kids grow up without a respect for authority.[/quote]
Why are these families destroyed? For what purpose do they go to such extremes?
[quote]The black community needs to rebuild their families and stop blaming racism when cops kill more whites per year then blacks. [/quote]
It's not that they're dying, it's how they're dying. Trevon Martin is a controversial one, but there've been several instances of genuine police brutality that's been captured first-hand, so to think that it's just a "black problem" is ignorant. The main issue being brought to light is the brutality being exercised in certain situations that certainly do not call for violence. Cameras on cops would, with any luck, if not curb the violence then at least be a standing testament to what actually went down, which can be used as evidence in court when allegations of police brutality are brought up.
"But what if they try to flag cops for every little thing?!"
If it's truly little then it won't hold up in court.
"But you're treating all cops like criminals!"
They put GPS trackers on all the trucks where I work AFTER they fired the two guys they knew were going on joy-rides, do they not have a right to know where their employees are going, or are they just treating us all like criminals for the sake of it? After all, the GPS allowed them to see that one of our new hires was a thief by verifying that he didn't go where he said he was going, and instead went to the scrap yard and LO AND BEHOLD, all the rolls of copper tubing from that truck were GONE when he got back, would you believe it?
This is the good that police cameras do:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tpAZObNZfI[/media]
"BUT LOOK!" you might say, "IT'S THE YOUNG TURKS! THEY HAVE A BIAS!"
Regardless, watch the video of the incident they're speaking of, and tell me that the level of force used was justifiable against a homeless man who had only a knife in his hand, was a fair distance away from officers, and wasn't acting aggressively (he did not charge the officers). They had a bean-bag shotgun to use against him and they decided to use live rounds first, FFS.
[quote]How you go about this i have no idea.[/quote]
And yet you seem certain that Trump has the answer.
[quote]But i think religion and conservatism helps. Thats just how i see it though, i can understand if facepunch didagrees with that.[/quote]
I've seen the good and bad sides of both, which is likely the cause for the disagreement. (when you have to argue with your little brother and one of his dip-shit friends, explaining to them that saying "gays are sub-human" is not at all alright, and they fight you to the death saying there's nothing wrong with saying that, and they're both Christian Conservatives...)
[quote]Ill get back to you when i get home.[/QUOTE]
I can't wait.
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;49202185]Well, when you make fun of a person with a disability. You knock some of your supporters back into the sane realm of reality.
Goddamn fuckhead.[/QUOTE]
Someone should beat him up so he can see what it's like being disabled.
[QUOTE=coldroll5;49205729]Someone should beat him up so he can see what it's like being disabled.[/QUOTE]
Violence isn't the answer.
Whew okay here it goes.
Yes I have seen it first hand and yes I told you the source of the problem. Black families are destroyed. Because daddy wants to gang bang and sell drugs so when he gets arrested the kids grow up without a father figure in life. My dad tried to murder my mom over heroin and ended up getting 14 years in prison, killed himself while in it. Same goes for a bunch of other families. My friends dad developed brain damage from crack, my other friends mother constantly dates guys who only fuck their family life even more. Its constant in shitty neighborhoods where the majority is black. Kids grow up in this environment and because kids were never disciplined by a proper parent figure they hate their teachers and cops. No respect for authority. Cop pulls my friend over for 500$ of weed in the car and my friend spits in his face. This is what ends up getting blacks killed and incarcerated. This is why 90% of kids in Detroit cant read or write, because they hate their teachers and refuse to cooperate. I did the same because my father never set me straight, and i gave into the peer pressure of my friends whose family didn't do the same for them.
[url]http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/detroit-public-schools-93-not-proficient-reading-96-not-proficient[/url]'
Also why are you choosing to ignore the part where I said I think police do need a reform? Yeah man. There's a whole lot of bullshit cases and police out there. But racism isn't the problem. Its a police problem. You can find tons of stories of cops treating whites like shit too. But you constantly hear about blacks getting killed because thats the narrative thats pushed by the media, and instead of fixing police and fixing families, they turn it into a issue of racism. ITS NOT A RACIST ISSUE. Everybody got shit on in the ghetto. Fix police please. But Bernie Sanders idea of incorporating Black Lives Matter's ideas are not going to do shit, because non of the ideas address why blacks commit so many crimes in the first place. Because ITS THE FAMILY THAT IS PRODUCING THESE TROUBLED KIDS.
No I'm not certain Trump has the answer. Jesus dude. Stop putting words in my mouth. I just like him a whole lot better than Bernie. That's it. His gun policy is better, his immigration plan is better, his tax plan is better, he wants to incorporate progressive tax despite being a republican, he supports women's health, he wants to build more factories and slowly cut ties with China, he wants to get on better relations with Russia, he wants to do something about ISIS. I just like him better then Bernie. I think he'll do more. Period.
I'm sorry your little brother hates gays. That sucks. Religion is not a perfect answer I agree, which is why I said I wasn't entirely sure how to solve this police issue. But despite helping me religion also helped my best friend and shes honestly the sweetest girl you could ever meet, but 5 years ago she was cussing out teachers, breaking property, and getting into fights. Religion changed her. I realize this is an anecdote and not representative of everyone but damn dude it saved her life and mine. So I like it, despite this forum being mostly athiest.
I do believe all Americans should have access to health care dude. I'm 5,000$ in debt just from a panic attack a had a month ago. And that's easy. There's people 400,000$ in debt which is nightmarish. But free healthcare and free college just isn't feasible even with tax, military cuts, budget cuts. Its still going to cost a lot of money because we have 320 million plus people. Its a pie in the sky idea and although I wish it wasn't thats the reality America is in. I'm far from being which so idk why you are insinuating I'm all like "haha got mine suckers!" i grew up in a poor neighborhood and family man...
Again I like his ideas more and that's why im voting for him because I rather have ideas that have a chance of becoming true then ideas I see as an impossibility in our current country.
Ill look into those bankruptcies. I remember reading that filing for bankruptcies was a natural part of business and most rich people do it, plus considering Trump owns 130+ whatever companies I also figured that those were just business as usual. So if Donald Trump really is a proven sleaze-ball that fucked people over then you got me there man. My bad.
Yes you are true on that. We won't know until his president. But we also won't know how things will go if Trump is president either so what's your point?
Fair enough though. I do agree that congress won't be happy with Trump either but I'm positive they will be more infavor of trumps conservative policies then Bernies 15$ min wage, free healthcare, and college.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sqoq-lAGO8[/url]
Audit the Fed
Brady Bill
Price–Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act
Instant-runoff voting
Votes for the Nuclear Iran Deal
Against Intervening with ISIS
And a couple of others dealing with education that a disagree with but I suppose its not completely bad.
Btw man I'm not trying to come across as hostile, I get it. You disagree. But you need to understand that I don't think Trump is an amazing choice, I just think hes better then Bernie. That's it.
[QUOTE=DropDeadTed;49204743]To be honest I'm not sure what would happen if it came down to Trump vs. Bernie. They're both terrible candidates and I don't want to cast a vote knowing that it's for a candidate that will fuck the country.[/QUOTE]
Just wondering as an Aussie, how will Bernie fuck up the country?
Sorry forgot to update this post, I just read the one above, thanks for the insight.
Hahahaha
If you yanks think Trump is the solution and not Sanders
Let me tell you one thing
Go and live in some lost African shithole. Or if that sounds too harsh, then choose a LATAM shithole and go live there.
Because there's no fucking way you can deserve to live in a country like the US if you choose to vote Trump or Carson or any of the other lunatics that are included in the Republican Party.
Really, you're just voting guys who want basically nothing but more for those who already have a lot and don't give a flying fuck about the future?
Thanks, but no.
I think trump has a good chance to recover from this, the elections are nearly a year out
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;49206596]Hahahaha
If you yanks think Trump is the solution and not Sanders
Let me tell you one thing
Go and live in some lost African shithole. Or if that sounds too harsh, then choose a LATAM shithole and go live there.
Because there's no fucking way you can deserve to live in a country like the US if you choose to vote Trump or Carson or any of the other lunatics that are included in the Republican Party.
Really, you're just voting guys who want basically nothing but more for those who already have a lot and don't give a flying fuck about the future?
Thanks, but no.[/QUOTE]
Some americans feel differently, the USA is a pretty different world than Argentinia
[QUOTE=Complifusedv2;49205440]I still find it hilarious that this man is running to become president[/QUOTE]
It's even more hilarious when you look back at his match in Wrestlemania.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49206607]I think trump has a good chance to recover from this, the elections are nearly a year out
Some americans feel differently, the USA is a pretty different world than Argentinia[/QUOTE]
Of course. And more so. And that's why you should try to take care of that world and not fuck it up.
You wanna end with complete douchebags in government? You guys once made the mistake with Bush by choosing him again just because he went to war, appealing completely to emotion and not reason. Like, approval rate sky rocketed to 90% post 9-11 and then went straight into the ground after people slowly realized what fucked up douchebag he was. Leave the repetition of mistakes to poor populations like the north of Argentina and such.
Don't make the same mistake twice.
[QUOTE=Badballer;49206386]Just wondering as an Aussie, how will Bernie fuck up the country?
Sorry forgot to update this post, I just read the one above, thanks for the insight.[/QUOTE]
He wants to increase the minimum wage to 15$ an hour. San Francisco has had a minimum wage increase and it resulted in a loss of a ton of business as well as high housing price.
[url]http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/07/07/we-are-seeing-the-effects-of-the-minimum-wage-rise-in-san-francisco/[/url]
But tbf there's people who will disagree with this. So I suggest you check out both sides if you care enough.
He also wants free health care and college like most Scandinavian countries but the American population is 320 million plus (turns out I was wrong in my previous post, I was sure it was 350 million so that's my bad) compared to Sweden's 9.5 million, and our population is on a steady increase projected to be over 400 million by 2050. So critics of Bernie suggest that his idea of Scandinavian welfare applying to America futile and won't work. Keeping in mind that Congress was rough on Obama care.
Then there is the immigration problem. Which is really bad here in America. 11 million illegals and our system for dealing with them is so bad that sometimes when we capture some of them we end up just letting them go back on the streets.
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politics/immigrants-crime/[/url]
Bernie advocates for letting them into our country in an easy, better, and more official way. While Trump wants to build wall, deport, and have rougher restrictions on whose allowed in. It depends on what side of the political fence you're on.
Also as I was typing all this I noticed your edit. Oh well. Here's some more information and a fix on that population stat.
[QUOTE]He wants to increase the minimum wage to 15$ an hour. San Francisco has had a minimum wage increase and it resulted in a loss of a ton of business as well as high housing price[/QUOTE]
I believe both sides of the political aisle have an ineffective approach. Whats a third approach thats effective and doesnt have as many downsides as the other options?
Serious question.
[QUOTE=JohhnyCarson;49206725]I believe both sides of the political aisle have an ineffective approach. Whats a third approach thats effective and doesnt have as many downsides as the other options?
Serious question.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I would agree. Raising the minimum wage has been shown to do jack shit when it comes to helping about out of poverty.
[url]http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/01/raising-the-minimum-wage-will-not-reduce-poverty#_ftn1[/url]
But there are some people who suggest the answer lies within giving people a higher tax credit return.
Like this.
[url]https://www.epionline.org/studies/r109/[/url]
Second paragraph from the bottom.
So maybe that's the third approach, but honestly man idk. The first thing I thought of was to have a better education system, but I'm not to educated on that topic (heh).
My school had a week of entrepreneur learning, a period of math class where we learned to manage money, and an economics class. but it didn't seem to do any good.
Raising doesnt help but no minimum wage leads to abuse. So both are no go.
I would say better public transportation. Serious. How much does gas, insurance, maintenance and all that up monthly?
Get rid of that and people will have more in their pocket. Additional spending money.
Plus mobility allows for a wider range of job opportunities.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;49206596]Hahahaha
If you yanks think Trump is the solution and not Sanders
Let me tell you one thing
Go and live in some lost African shithole. Or if that sounds too harsh, then choose a LATAM shithole and go live there.
Because there's no fucking way you can deserve to live in a country like the US if you choose to vote Trump or Carson or any of the other lunatics that are included in the Republican Party.
Really, you're just voting guys who want basically nothing but more for those who already have a lot and don't give a flying fuck about the future?
Thanks, but no.[/QUOTE]
Dont be mad because Trump has a monopoly on dank memes and Argentina cant compete.
[QUOTE=UtraWalrus;49206018]Whew okay here it goes.
Yes I have seen it first hand and yes I told you the source of the problem. Black families are destroyed. Because daddy wants to gang bang and sell drugs so when he gets arrested the kids grow up without a father figure in life. My dad tried to murder my mom over heroin and ended up getting 14 years in prison, killed himself while in it. Same goes for a bunch of other families. My friends dad developed brain damage from crack, my other friends mother constantly dates guys who only fuck their family life even more. Its constant in shitty neighborhoods where the majority is black. Kids grow up in this environment and because kids were never disciplined by a proper parent figure they hate their teachers and cops. No respect for authority. Cop pulls my friend over for 500$ of weed in the car and my friend spits in his face. This is what ends up getting blacks killed and incarcerated. This is why 90% of kids in Detroit cant read or write, because they hate their teachers and refuse to cooperate. I did the same because my father never set me straight, and i gave into the peer pressure of my friends whose family didn't do the same for them.
[url]http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/detroit-public-schools-93-not-proficient-reading-96-not-proficient[/url]'[/quote]
The same thing happens in white communities. One of my co-workers recently took custody of two nephews (on top of the 7 children he already had) because their mother (the daughter of a dealership baron) decided she'd rather party and stay on meth than go to rehab and keep her kids. Her family is conservative and claims to be religious, despite none of them stepping forward to take care of the nephews (except for the grandmother, but she was too old) and despite her mother's advice (which was HER mother's advice) was to "marry a man with money". This is a family with money, believe me, but it's also a family with issues. The girl's family hasn't even gotten involved so far as to put her in rehab theirselves, but when she finally DID go to rehab and she got out, she was given a brand-new car (WTF, you just got out of rehab, you didn't graduate college or anything like that), which she proceeded to tear apart with her bare hands because she got tweaked-out again and thought her new car was bugged. This girl's father (the dealership baron) once had a doctor tell him that eating steak (or meat in general) was the same as shooting up with heroin, and has been a hard-core vegan ever since. Naturally they try to keep this shit under-wraps because Mr. Dealership has a reputation to uphold, so they've not only essentially dis-owned their tweaked-out daughter (without really dis-owning her because they keep giving her money whenever she asks), but they've pretty much removed all ties with their step-daughter, the wife of the co-worker who took the two nephews in so they wouldn't be taken by the state.
So after this example, compounded with the examples you've provided, why is it that people keep pursuing these avenues when they know what the out-come will be? The answer would be ignorance, which is a ways different from simply not knowing
[quote]Also why are you choosing to ignore the part where I said I think police do need a reform? Yeah man. There's a whole lot of bullshit cases and police out there. But racism isn't the problem. Its a police problem. You can find tons of stories of cops treating whites like shit too. But you constantly hear about blacks getting killed because thats the narrative thats pushed by the media, and instead of fixing police and fixing families, they turn it into a issue of racism. ITS NOT A RACIST ISSUE. Everybody got shit on in the ghetto. Fix police please. But Bernie Sanders idea of incorporating Black Lives Matter's ideas are not going to do shit, because non of the ideas address why blacks commit so many crimes in the first place. Because ITS THE FAMILY THAT IS PRODUCING THESE TROUBLED KIDS.[/quote]
Where did I ignore that? I pointed out that police needed to be held accountable and provided an argument that supports that, regardless of race, and BLM is bringing attention to the notion that police need to be held accountable. If the argument is in support of yours then why would you assume I'm ignoring you?
[quote]No I'm not certain Trump has the answer.[/quote]
So you're gonna vote for a guy with no experience in managing a Federal budget, no experience in diplomacy, and who talks himself up to appear that he's more knowledgeable/qualified than he really is (to the point that he's assuredly talking out of his ass, if not border-line insane). That's you're right I guess.
[quote]Jesus dude. Stop putting words in my mouth. I just like him a whole lot better than Bernie. That's it.[/quote]
Let's find out why together!
[quote]His gun policy is better[/quote]
[url=http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Donald_Trump_Gun_Control.htm]Even though he wanted an assault weapon ban?[/url]
Oh, except he [url=https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/second-amendment-rights]waffled a bit[/url]:
[quote][b]GUN AND MAGAZINE BANS[/b]. Gun and magazine bans are a total failure. That’s been proven every time it’s been tried. Opponents of gun rights try to come up with scary sounding phrases like “assault weapons”, “military-style weapons” and “high capacity magazines” to confuse people. What they’re really talking about are popular semi-automatic rifles and standard magazines that are owned by tens of millions of Americans. Law-abiding people should be allowed to own the firearm of their choice. The government has no business dictating what types of firearms good, honest people are allowed to own.[/quote]
So first he says assault weapons are bad, then claims that an "assault weapon" is some scary made-up thing when it's just another semi-automatic rifle, good to see it only took him 15 years to come around on that one.
[quote]his immigration plan is better[/quote]
Ah yes, his immigration plan, where he doesn't even know why most of them cross over here illegally anyway (he just thinks it's all drugs, rapists, criminals, but there's a few good ones, he just doesn't know or care why they're coming here if they're not up to no good (it's because the cartels are dicks and despite out-sourcing of jobs to Mexico there's not enough good-paying jobs and they can't afford visas, never mind that if people on THIS side of the border didn't hire them there would be little to no reason for them to come here)) and so thinks the best thing would be to force a neighboring country and trade partner (of whom he reaps the benefits, more on that later) to build a colossal wall which they surely maintain and monitor with good vigilance, just like they handle the border today. :thatwasfunnyright:
[quote]his tax plan is better, he wants to incorporate progressive tax despite being a republican[/quote]
A progressive tax that seems to slash taxes across the board.
[quote]Meanwhile, the proposal would also be a boon for the wealthiest Americans like Trump -- the top bracket includes individuals making $150,001 and more and couples making $300,001 and more -- who would pay an income tax rate of 25%. That's a dramatic cut from the current top rate of close to 40%.[/quote]
So he wants to cut taxes across the board, yet he wants to destroy ISIS. The American War Machine isn't a cheap thing, so where does he plan on pulling through with those plans? How does he plan to maintain border security when there'll be that much less Federal revenue?
Also,
[quote]The real estate magnate has surged to the top of the polls by touting a populist tone, lamenting that wealthy people like himself should pay more. [/quote]
[quote]He also declined to say how much taxes he currently pays, only saying, "I fight like hell to pay as little as possible."[/quote]
Talking out of his ass in order to remain popular, typical Trump.
Not to mention that the Tax Foundation did a summary of his tax plan, sounds good on paper, but it adds over $10 trillion to the deficit over the course of 10 years.
[quote=][b]Conclusion:[/b] Donald Trump’s tax plan would enact a number of tax reforms that would both lower marginal tax rates on workers and significantly reduce the cost of capital. These changes in the incentives to work and invest would greatly increase the U.S. economy’s size in the long run, leading to higher incomes for taxpayers at all income levels. The plan would also be a large tax cut, which would increase the federal government’s deficit by over $10 trillion, both on a static and dynamic basis.[/quote]
[quote]he supports women's health, he wants to build more factories and slowly cut ties with China, he wants to get on better relations with Russia, he wants to do something about ISIS. I just like him better then Bernie.[/quote]
But Bernie also wants to do all of those things...
And how does Trump expect to pay to do something about ISIS in accordance with his [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/09/us/politics/donald-trump-likens-his-schooling-to-military-service-in-book.html?_r=0]tactical brilliance bestowed upon him through school[/url] after cutting all that tax revenue out of the picture? Maybe we can get Mexico to pay for that, too.
[quote]I think he'll do more. Period.[/quote]
[quote]I'm sorry your little brother hates gays. That sucks. Religion is not a perfect answer I agree, which is why I said I wasn't entirely sure how to solve this police issue.[/quote]
It's not your fault that he went from an irresponsible young adult who drank and drove often and rolled at least two vehicles as a result to a somewhat more reserved and settled young adult who now has a theology-driven hatred for his fellow man. :v:
Religion does, however, empower many people, for better or worse.
[quote]But despite helping me religion also helped my best friend and shes honestly the sweetest girl you could ever meet, but 5 years ago she was cussing out teachers, breaking property, and getting into fights. Religion changed her. I realize this is an anecdote and not representative of everyone but damn dude it saved her life and mine. So I like it, despite this forum being mostly athiest.[/quote]
Atheism for me is less not understanding the belief in the super-natural, but more of me not understanding the obsession with the super-natural when that which is natural is far more fascinating, inspiring, and enlightening.
[quote]I do believe all Americans should have access to health care dude. I'm 5,000$ in debt just from a panic attack a had a month ago. And that's easy. There's people 400,000$ in debt which is nightmarish. But free healthcare and free college just isn't feasible even with tax, military cuts, budget cuts. Its still going to cost a lot of money because we have 350 million plus people. Its a pie in the sky idea and although I wish it wasn't thats the reality America is in. I'm far from being which so idk why you are insinuating I'm all like "haha got mine suckers!" i grew up in a poor neighborhood and family man...[/quote]
Free college is something provided by many countries throughout the world, including many of the European nations. If the wealthiest country in the world (that would be us) can't afford to do it, but can afford to pay out billions in corporate subsidies ever year, then something is surely fucked, and it's not Bernie's ideas.
In case you don't know what a subsidy entails:
[quote]a sum of money granted by the government or a public body to assist an industry or business [b]so that the price of a commodity or service may remain low or competitive[/b].[/quote]
[quote]Again I like his ideas more and that's why im voting for him because I rather have ideas that have a chance of becoming true then ideas I see as an impossibility in our current country.[/quote]
So you're just rooting for the team that you think is gonna win, eh? We already discussed how Trump is disliked by both Republicans and Democrats, and a good number of other people, so in the same light that you don't think Bernie would get anything done, neither would Trump, so that makes his ideas, no matter how good they may sound to you, just as unrealistic as Bernie's.
[quote]Ill look into those bankruptcies. I remember reading that filing for bankruptcies was a natural part of business and most rich people do it, plus considering Trump owns 130+ whatever companies I also figured that those were just business as usual. So if Donald Trump really is a proven sleaze-ball that fucked people over then you got me there man. My bad.[/quote]
*businesses, not companies.
Also, there's [url=http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/31/news/companies/donald-trump-bankruptcy/]this[/url] for your consideration.
(yeah I know, "ewww, CNN!", but they make a fair point here)
There's also something to be said, I think, about a guy who seems so heavily invested in an enterprise whose business model is literally "Hey, come throw money at us! You [I]might[/I] walk out with more, whaddya say?" :v:
[quote]Yes you are true on that. We won't know until his president. But we also won't know how things will go if Trump is president either so what's your point?
Fair enough though. I do agree that congress won't be happy with Trump either but I'm positive they will be more infavor of trumps conservative policies then Bernies 15$ min wage, free healthcare, and college.[/quote]
*single-payer, not free.
[quote][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sqoq-lAGO8[/url]
Audit the Fed[/quote]
[url]http://debatingchambers.com/132_does-the-modified-audit-the-fed-amendment-of-bernie-sanders-do-the-job[/url]
According to this, his changes were actually pretty good, and got the bill passed where-as it failed two votes before. Compromises on some parts, but still got the job done.
[quote]Brady Bill[/quote]
[url]http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1991/roll083.xml#N[/url]
239-186 sounds like a close vote to me.
[quote=http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/13/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-voted-against-brady/]In July, when we first looked into the issue, Sanders’ campaign manager Jeff Weaver told us that Sanders voted against the bill because he believed a national waiting period was a federal overreach and because he was answering to his constituents.
"He wasn't opposed to states having (waiting periods) if they wanted to. The Republicans wanted to repeal waiting periods in states that had them, and Bernie voted that down," Weaver said. "He said he would be against waiting periods, and he kept his word to the people of Vermont."[/quote]
[quote]Price–Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act[/quote]
[url]http://www.greenmountaindaily.com/2014/02/02/can-bernie-end-nuclears-cost-shift-to-the-public-purse/[/url]
Seems to me that he was tired of the nuclear industry getting a free ride from American tax-payers without being held liable.
[quote]Instant-runoff voting[/quote]
[quote]Votes for the Nuclear Iran Deal[/quote]
I fail to see what's bad about this, unless you bring up the whole "IRAN WILL STILL MAKE A NUKE MARK MY WORDS!" argument. Especially since most people that I've heard make this argument in-person argue that the first thing they'll do is nuke Israel. :tinfoil:
What they fail to realize is that they can't nuke Israel, nor can they just sell off the nuke to someone else, because with as much scrutiny as Iran is under right now, someone could receive an atomic [I]wedgie[/I] in Israel and Iran would get the blame for it, there's no way they won't become the center of attention should a nuclear attack happen anywhere. If they go ahead with making a warhead, then they've only fucked themselves, as this deal was quite possibly their last chance to not get the ever-loving shit sanctioned out of them at the least, or militarily intervened at the worst.
Negotiations are the preferred method for dealing with foreign countries, not saber-rattling.
[quote]Against Intervening with ISIS[/quote]
[url]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/10/12/bernie_sanders_on_isis_this_is_a_war_for_the_soul_of_islam.html[/url]
[quote=Bernie Sanders]But, Candy, this is not just an American problem. This is an international crisis. This is a regional crisis. And I think the people of America are getting sick and tired of the world and the region, Saudi Arabia and the other countries saying hey, we don't have to do anything about it. The American taxpayer, the American soldiers will do all the work for us.[/quote]
Seems fair to me, he's not saying we [I]shouldn't[/I] do anything about it, rather that we shouldn't be doing it [I]alone[/I], which seems in stark contrast to Obama, who refuses to cooperate with Russia on its air raids against ISIS it would seem.
[quote]Btw man I'm not trying to come across as hostile, I get it. You disagree. But you need to understand that I don't think Trump is an amazing choice, I just think hes better then Bernie. That's it.[/QUOTE]
I'm not trying to come off as hostile either. I was just legitimately curious as to why anyone would pick Trump, and so requested the rationale on it while filling in the holes in what you knew about him. Being informed is key!
[QUOTE=UtraWalrus;49206711]He wants to increase the minimum wage to 15$ an hour. San Francisco has had a minimum wage increase and it resulted in a loss of a ton of business as well as high housing price.
[url]http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/07/07/we-are-seeing-the-effects-of-the-minimum-wage-rise-in-san-francisco/[/url]
But tbf there's people who will disagree with this. So I suggest you check out both sides if you care enough.[/QUOTE]
My main gripe with that argument is that the housing market here in Clovis, NM is also fucked, but it's not because of a high minimum wage (which is $7.35 here, and you're hard-pressed to find a job that pays more than $10/hour), it's because the real-estate market has become addicted to that fat Military Housing Allowance titty (we have a base for Air Force SpecOps, and they're expanding, and with expansion means more gub'ment titty money). If wages go up and housing rates go up, it's because somebody decided "Hey, I'm gonna milk the fuck out of this!"
Fuck, I make $12 an hour, and I can't afford a house that isn't:
1) Located south of 14th street. (this is the bad part of town, basically EVERYTHING south of 14th street, but ESPECIALLY anywhere south of 7th. Houses here typically only run $30-40K for a reason. How bad is it? Friend of mine was working on his car on 10th street, went inside for half an hour, came back outside and the radiator was completely missing from his car with not a drop of coolant anywhere, it's basically Tweaker Central)
2) Falling apart. (a 5-bedroom 2-story house for only $10K? What's the worst that could-*pictures*-O-oh...)
[QUOTE=UtraWalrus;49206711]He wants to increase the minimum wage to 15$ an hour. San Francisco has had a minimum wage increase and it resulted in a loss of a ton of business as well as high housing price.
[url]http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/07/07/we-are-seeing-the-effects-of-the-minimum-wage-rise-in-san-francisco/[/url]
But tbf there's people who will disagree with this. So I suggest you check out both sides if you care enough.
He also wants free health care and college like most Scandinavian countries but the American population is 320 million plus (turns out I was wrong in my previous post, I was sure it was 350 million so that's my bad) compared to Sweden's 9.5 million, and our population is on a steady increase projected to be over 400 million by 2050. So critics of Bernie suggest that his idea of Scandinavian welfare applying to America futile and won't work. Keeping in mind that Congress was rough on Obama care.
Then there is the immigration problem. Which is really bad here in America. 11 million illegals and our system for dealing with them is so bad that sometimes when we capture some of them we end up just letting them go back on the streets.
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politics/immigrants-crime/[/url]
Bernie advocates for letting them into our country in an easy, better, and more official way. While Trump wants to build wall, deport, and have rougher restrictions on whose allowed in. It depends on what side of the political fence you're on.
Also as I was typing all this I noticed your edit. Oh well. Here's some more information and a fix on that population stat.[/QUOTE]
Do you feel like they're both way too extreme and a middle ground would be most effective?
I like a lot of Bernie's ideas, but his economic policy is horrible.
If the minimum wage disappeared as a whole, jobs making the bare minimum might drop a little bit but overall, those jobs pay $7.50 because that's how much the employees are worth as well as factors from supply versus demand. As long as there is a nonzero amount of competition, there's not going to be a race to the bottom if companies were no longer forced to pay $7.50.
One of the main things that bugs me is that his solution to people finding tax loopholes is to close them. It's attacking the symptoms rather than the source. It encourages business to just leave the country as a whole because it's too expensive to operate here, and nobody outside of America is going to have any incentive to expand into the country. Plus if we leave the damn 75,000 page tax code in place then they're just going to find more loopholes.
As for free college, look at the public school system and what a fucking disaster it's become. People pay $20,000 a year to go to private schools just to get a decent education. Also when people get something for free, they're going to be less likely to value it. There's going to be a nice surge of partiers taking up seats from people who actually want to be there.
If you want to model the country after Scandinavia, then look around your house and get back to me on how many Scandinavian products you have.
For the record, I don't like Trump either. If Rand Paul doesn't get the republican nomination, I really don't know who I'm going to vote for.
[QUOTE=halofreak472;49207741]I like a lot of Bernie's ideas, but his economic policy is horrible.
If the minimum wage disappeared as a whole, jobs making the bare minimum might drop a little bit but overall, those jobs pay $7.50 because that's how much the employees are worth as well as factors from supply versus demand. As long as there is a nonzero amount of competition, there's not going to be a race to the bottom if companies were no longer forced to pay $7.50.[/quote]
They already pay less than minimum wage for servers and waiters/waitresses in the US (~$2.15 an hour here in New Mexico!) because they're expected to make up the rest in tips, and look at what they decided they'd rather pay people to assemble electronics (compare what they pay for the companies over-seas that do it to what they'd pay someone here), which would've been a perfectly good-paying factory job here. Hell, even Wal-Mart used to hire full-time employees with benefits, paid good wages, etc. while Sam Walton was in charge, and he still made ridiculous bank. Then his kids took over, down-sized the fuck out of everyone, cut hours, etc. That we even have a minimum wage is an indicator that they would love to pay us less, but they can't. If they're not going to pay the current minimum wage, then there needs to be some sort of guarantee that people won't be stuck in the same "I work 3 jobs and barely scrape by" situation they're currently in.
[quote]One of the main things that bugs me is that his solution to people finding tax loopholes is to close them. It's attacking the symptoms rather than the source. It encourages business to just leave the country as a whole because it's too expensive to operate here, and nobody outside of America is going to have any incentive to expand into the country. Plus if we leave the damn 75,000 page tax code in place then they're just going to find more loopholes.[/quote]
Eisenhower taxed them up to 90%, I don't recall seeing anything about businesses leaving the country in droves due to it being "too expensive to operate".
As for closing the loopholes, how else would you address them? Just throw the whole thing out and re-write it, or maybe just throw out and replace huge chunks of it? Either way you're getting rid of at least some of the current loop-holes, even if you're potentially replacing them with new ones.
[quote]As for free college, look at the public school system and what a fucking disaster it's become. People pay $20,000 a year to go to private schools just to get a decent education. Also when people get something for free, they're going to be less likely to value it. There's going to be a nice surge of partiers taking up seats from people who actually want to be there.[/quote]
[url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/university-of-illinois-top-party-school_55bf88b9e4b0d4f33a0355f2]Looking at a list of party schools[/url] while also referencing their tuition costs ($10.9K if you're going to Charleston, and that's if you're in-state!), if people paying money didn't make those people appreciate the value of the education they were supposed to be receiving (if that's even how it works), then I don't know what will, and you don't either.
[quote]If you want to model the country after Scandinavia, then look around your house and get back to me on how many Scandinavian products you have.[/quote]
Scandinavia has failed as a country because they don't have anything I would personally care to buy, oh no. It's all my fault, god dammit.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;49206625]the majority opinion across the world is "if the us votes for trump that population is full of fucking retards", european countries with similar cultures to ours also tend to be filled with people who think this[/QUOTE]
You just pulled that shit out of your ass. Projecting your opinions onto millions of people you have never met or interacted with, you have no clue.
Given the significant growth in right wing parties among the youth in many european countries, my money is there is far more favorable opinions of Trump than you would like to think.
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