• Justice Department says it will end use of private prisons
    88 replies, posted
Ever since I learned about them in my college courses I hoped that they would be done away with so that the justice system could start fixing itself. One step at a time I guess
[QUOTE=.Isak.;50908536] The only way to incentivize private prisons to rehabilitate is for the government to inspect them and give them grants based on their recidivism rate. And at that point, you just have the government paying a private company to run a prison like the government would already run them, except now you're incentivizing them to just barely hit the mark to get the grant and not go any further. It's inherently broken - and if they aren't doing any better than government-run prisons, why bother with it? You're paying a company to run a prison for you, paying them to focus away from the profit incentive - why not just run it yourself?[/QUOTE] This is a dumb idea because there are many schools of thought on recidivism and no one can fully control it. It would be like No Child Left Behind for prisons.
this is great right up until the republican congress passes a law saying private prisons have to be in the bid process even though we know theyre completely inaccurate about their numbers or a republican takes the WH in a few years time. what it takes is an act of congress or a Scotus hearing to say this is bad and wrong
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50908483]Privately owned and run prisons aren't inherently any worse than state run prisons. That's determined by how they are operated. Prisons are like any other service. The government has two choices. They can create their own system, or they can contract it out to the private sector with the requirements and stipulations that they want, and pay them to do all of the work and take all of the risk.[/QUOTE] A prison should never be for profit. How is that profit generated? By insuring a certain amount of inmates come in. Ensuring that you can cut costs on their food, health, and living conditions. How does that generate a better prison system? What that turns prisons into is barebone affairs that cram as many people as possible into the smallest area possible and feed them the worst garbage they can. Did you know most inmates leave prison and their health is in shambles because their diet in prison is fucking garbage? Private prisons cut down on everything that a state prison wouldn't, making the stay in prison worse, and thusly less effective at getting criminals to work in the normal world.
[QUOTE=gastyne;50908502]I think you are missing the biggest issue with private prisons. They are like any other service, yes. But a prison should absolutely not be. It's a for profit company that benefits from having more prisoners so they bribe politicians to enforce more strict laws to bring more people to prison. They have an incentive to get as mane people as possible behind bars.[/QUOTE] Where has this happened? Do you have proof of this happening? [QUOTE=srobins;50908504]But.. We're posting in a thread where the Justice Department is literally declaring that private prisons are worse than government-run prisons. I don't understand how you can say private prisons aren't inherently worse when literally all of the evidence (and just common sense based on the incentivizing of imprisonment) points to that being wrong.[/QUOTE] You're mistaking my point. My point isn't that there is nothing wrong with the current private prison system. What I'm saying is that there is nothing inherently bad about a private prison. They can be managed and run correctly, or they can be run badly. Being private doesn't mean that it's automatically incapable of being as good or better than a public one. [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50908520]The primary issue being that private prisons are, first and foremost concerned about maximizing profit, which almost unfailingly results in less effective, less h7mane, and more dangerous prison environments. While I'm all for the idea of a cost efficient prison system, we cannot forget that the ultimate role of the prison system is to rehabilitate and release prisoners, molding former criminals into productive members of society. This is epically mismanaged by private prisons, not the least of which is because they have no incentive to rehabilitate. The bigger the prison population, the more money private prisons make, and thus it is in their own best interests to only provide the bare minimum, and with little oversight, to comply with regulations.[/QUOTE] I don't disagree, but they aren't incapable of being great. I think that one issue is loose regulations on them. People want to use a private prison system, but don't want to regulate them to high standards because it will cost more. Public prisons are always going to be of higher quality for the same money because you've cut out the middle man. Private ones CAN be just as good, if not better, but it's going to be more expensive and nobody wants to pay that much.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50908619]Where has this happened? Do you have proof of this happening? You're mistaking my point. My point isn't that there is nothing wrong with the current private prison system. What I'm saying is that there is nothing inherently bad about a private prison. They can be managed and run correctly, or they can be run badly. Being private doesn't mean that it's automatically incapable of being as good or better than a public one. I don't disagree, but they aren't incapable of being great. I think that one issue is loose regulations on them. People want to use a private prison system, but don't want to regulate them to high standards because it will cost more. Public prisons are always going to be of higher quality for the same money because you've cut out the middle man. Private ones CAN be just as good, if not better, but it's going to be more expensive and nobody wants to pay that much.[/QUOTE] Do you have any proof of them being better? or is that just a "well maybe they could be better" because no private prison in the US is really a "good" prison.
Why do I see this as not really changing anything, except maybe who is getting the money.
Probably for the best. I'm not against the idea of private prisons but the execution seems to have gone poorly, very poorly. About time for the government to take them over, in my eyes. No reason to keep them going if they can't meet the standards the rest of us set.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50908619]You're mistaking my point. My point isn't that there is nothing wrong with the current private prison system. What I'm saying is that there is nothing inherently bad about a private prison. They can be managed and run correctly, or they can be run badly. Being private doesn't mean that it's automatically incapable of being as good or better than a public one.[/QUOTE] Oh, I see what you mean. I agree that theoretically it is possible for private prisons to operate ethically and in the best interests of inmates, I just think that as a general rule, most of them will not because of the incentive to keep people imprisoned and to keep them coming back as repeat offenders. Like you say, to bring a private prison up to the same standard of care that a public prison would provide, it would cost quite a bit more money, and you'd still be fighting with prisons that provide only the bare minimum care required to meet regulations. I just don't see the point in bothering with private prisons when it seems agreeable that public prisons overall are just better. [editline]18th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=RayvenQ;50908642]Why do I see this as not really changing anything, except maybe who is getting the money.[/QUOTE] I had a similar thought, but overall I think this is a better direction for the prison system. Private prisons have an incentive to keep people in and keep them coming back. Public prisons arguably have an incentive to get people out and keep them from coming back, because less prisoners to take care of means less money spent. If anything I would be concerned about prisons becoming too lenient in order to minimize costs expended on prisoners, but hopefully recidivism would be a deterrent for that.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;50908572]This is a dumb idea because there are many schools of thought on recidivism and no one can fully control it. It would be like No Child Left Behind for prisons.[/QUOTE] That's what we currently have with private prisons, though. I was criticizing it. Government-run prisons are the only acceptable option.
Only 12% of prisoners are held in private prisons. Thats a significantly smaller number than what people hyped these private prisons to hold. Slightly disappointed to be honest
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50908626]Do you have any proof of them being better? or is that just a "well maybe they could be better" because no private prison in the US is really a "good" prison.[/QUOTE] It's a "There is no reason why private prisons can't be just as good or better than public ones". The government is the one providing the contract. There is no reason why they can't include higher quality benchmarks to be met in terms of inmate treatment, benefits, and overall quality of rehabilitation. It's more expensive, but you are always going to pay more when someone else is taking all of the risk. [QUOTE=RenegadeCop;50908787]Theoreticals are meaningless because they never take in greed and corruption, which will always happen when humans are involved.[/QUOTE] Well agreeing that this is a good move because private prison implementation in the US is horrible wouldn't exactly be a real interesting discussion since we all agree on that anyways.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;50908892]Only 12% of prisoners are held in private prisons. Thats a significantly smaller number than what people hyped these private prisons to hold. Slightly disappointed to be honest[/QUOTE] This is only federal private prisons, not state ones. It's 19.1% for federal prisoners - there are fewer federal prisoners, so the number of state prisoners not in private prisons drags the percentage down a lot. Having nearly a fifth of federal prisoners held in for-profit private prisons that barely meet federal standards is gross [editline]18th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50908894]It's a "There is no reason why private prisons can't be just as good or better than public ones". The government is the one providing the contract. There is no reason why they can't include higher quality benchmarks to be met in terms of inmate treatment, benefits, and overall quality of rehabilitation. It's more expensive, but you are always going to pay more when someone else is taking all of the risk. Well agreeing that this is a good move because private prison implementation in the US is horrible wouldn't exactly be a real interesting discussion since we all agree on that anyways.[/QUOTE] If you're always going to pay more, aren't private prisons objectively worse? You're arguing that you can theoretically get the same product as government prisons, but you're saying it will always be more expensive and still claiming they're equal. Expense is a big part of the equation - government wants to cut expenses. If a private prison is as equally as good as a government one but costs an extra thousand dollars a year to run, it's not as good.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;50908912]If you're always going to pay more, aren't private prisons objectively worse? You're arguing that you can theoretically get the same product as government prisons, but you're saying it will always be more expensive and still claiming they're equal. Expense is a big part of the equation - government wants to cut expenses. If a private prison is as equally as good as a government one but costs an extra thousand dollars a year to run, it's not as good.[/QUOTE] Not necessarily. You have to also factor in risk and responsibility. If something happens, it's the owner gets sued, no matter if it's the government or a company. Some places feel that having someone else take all of the responsibility and risk is worth the extra money. And this doesn't take into account all of the bullshit just trying to get anything done in a government organization. It's worth the extra money for some places.
Holy shit, is this real? I can't believe this is actually happening.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;50908892]Only 12% of prisoners are held in private prisons. Thats a significantly smaller number than what people hyped these private prisons to hold. Slightly disappointed to be honest[/QUOTE] that's approximately 266,000 people dude
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50908483]Privately owned and run prisons aren't inherently any worse than state run prisons. [/QUOTE] The Justice Department disagrees.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;50909249]The Justice Department disagrees.[/QUOTE] Thank you for missing the entire conversation that followed.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50908985]Not necessarily. You have to also factor in risk and responsibility. If something happens, it's the owner gets sued, no matter if it's the government or a company. Some places feel that having someone else take all of the responsibility and risk is worth the extra money. And this doesn't take into account all of the bullshit just trying to get anything done in a government organization. It's worth the extra money for some places.[/QUOTE] I just don't really understand what you're arguing. Do you feel that we should keep private prisons, just regulate them harder? Why bother when the costs are admittedly much higher, and you have to deal with the fact that private prisons are just going to do the bare minimum to meet regulations? I understand the theoretical side of what you're saying, I just don't really understand to what end you're pushing it.
Regulating private prisons harder is the whole problem Silence. They're paid per inmate. So, they maximize this. They cram in 1000 prisoners in a prison built for 700 or less. They cut costs on food by buying in bulk from shitty sources. They hire guards who are often poorly trained and poorly equpped to deal with it. Regulating these prisons harder means they're no longer "For Profit". Meaning, why even bother having them?
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;50909262]Thank you for missing the entire conversation that followed.[/QUOTE] I didn't miss anything other than you desperately trying to prove what everyone else already knows: that private prisons are, inherently, not as capable as government prisons. The entire argument for a private prison is that it can do the states job cheaper. If it can't do the states job at all, much less do it for cheaper, than that in my view makes them inherently worse. You've done nothing to explain why the DoJ's report is wrong or why I should be happy about private prisons whatsoever.
[QUOTE=Judas;50909179]that's approximately 266,000 people dude[/QUOTE] It's like 22,500 people, dude
[QUOTE=Code3Response;50909472]It's like 22,500 people, dude[/QUOTE] There are more than 20,000 [I]just in Louisiana,[/I] dude. [quote]The growth of the private detention industry has long been a subject of scrutiny. A recent eight-part series in the New Orleans Times-Picayune chronicled how more than half of Louisiana’s 40,000 inmates are housed in prisons run by sheriffs or private companies as part of a broader financial incentive scheme. The detention business goes beyond just criminal prisoners.[/quote] There are nearly 130,000 people incarcerated in private prisons in the US (as of 2010, anyway. Can't find more recent figures). [quote]128,195: Number of state and federal prisoners housed in private facilities as of December 2010[/quote] [url]https://www.propublica.org/article/by-the-numbers-the-u.s.s-growing-for-profit-detention-industry[/url]
[QUOTE=Code3Response;50909472]It's like 22,500 people, dude[/QUOTE] [img]https://puu.sh/qG8Fh/c4fde1af14.png[/img] [url]http://sentencingproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Too-Good-to-be-True-Private-Prisons-in-America.pdf[/url] [editline]18th August 2016[/editline] Fucking BDA ninja
This is similar to when gay marriage was passed, I knew nothing about it going through legislation until it was passed. I guess just one more reason to ignore media?
Straight from the article says 22,660
[QUOTE=Revenge282;50909520][img]https://puu.sh/qG8Fh/c4fde1af14.png[/img] [url]http://sentencingproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Too-Good-to-be-True-Private-Prisons-in-America.pdf[/url] [editline]18th August 2016[/editline] Fucking BDA ninja[/QUOTE] While it's true that there are a number of prisoners still held in private [B]state[/B] prisons, Code3Response is correct in that the estimated figure for [B]federal[/B] private prisoners is 22,660, and that constitutes roughly 12% of federal prisoners. [QUOTE=OP]According to the inspector general’s report, private prisons housed roughly 22,660 federal inmates as of December 2015. That represents about 12 percent of the Bureau of Prisons total inmate population, according to the report. In her memo, Yates wrote that the Bureau of Prisons began contracting with privately run institutions about a decade ago in the wake of exploding prison populations, and by 2013, as the federal prison population reached its peak, nearly 30,000 inmates were housed in privately operated facilities. But in 2013, Yates wrote, the prison population began to decline because of efforts to adjust sentencing guidelines, sometimes retroactively, and to change the way low-level drug offenders are charged. She said the drop in federal inmates gave officials the opportunity to reevaluate the use of private prisons.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Code3Response;50909603]Straight from the article says 22,660[/QUOTE] That is only counting the federal prisons. [editline]18th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=1legmidget;50909709]While it's true that there are a number of prisoners still held in private [B]state[/B] prisons, Code3Response is correct in that the estimated figure for [B]federal[/B] private prisoners is 22,660, and that constitutes roughly 12% of federal prisoners.[/QUOTE] Ye, seems like it was just a miscommunication. Is the DoJ only closing the [I]federal[/I] private prison contracts, though, or is it referring to [I]all[/I] private prisons? I'm a little unclear on that.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50909716]That is only counting the federal prisons. [editline]18th August 2016[/editline] Ye, seems like it was just a miscommunication. Is the DoJ only closing the [I]federal[/I] private prison contracts, though, or is it referring to [I]all[/I] private prisons? I'm a little unclear on that.[/QUOTE] I assume it's only federal. States handle their own private prisons and they wouldn't be able to bear the brunt of every single one closing down. If that's the case then this hardly changes anything.
[QUOTE=-nesto-;50909788]I assume it's only federal. States handle their own private prisons and they wouldn't be able to bear the brunt of every single one closing down. If that's the case then this hardly changes anything.[/QUOTE] At least the Fed is setting the example for other states to follow, and their data is out there. I imagine keeping private prisons running will be a very unpopular issue to campaign on and it's only a matter of time before the rest are shut down. Regardless this is still progress.
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