• Justice Department says it will end use of private prisons
    88 replies, posted
Feds setting an example unfortunately means fuckall. States do their own thing or else we wouldn't have whats going on in Washington and Colorado or the red states that are fighting same-sex marriage. Shutting them down does nothing but create more problems. Privatized prisons are a reaction to increased incarceration and the expenses that came with it. You wanna shut down the private prison complex? You can start by ending the war on drugs instead of doing feel good bullshit that ignores the heart of the problem.
how does shutting them down create more problems? they're worse than normal prisons in every way, and even putting them in prisons with minimum federal regulations would be an improvement [editline]19th August 2016[/editline] by the fact private prisons exist they actively create problems, problems that would no longer exist if they were all replaced with normal prisons
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50910173]how does shutting them down create more problems? they're worse than normal prisons in every way, and even putting them in prisons with minimum federal regulations would be an improvement[/QUOTE] Because its just going to strain all the other prisons. They're not going to build new prisons to replace these ones
[QUOTE=Code3Response;50910184]Because its just going to strain all the other prisons. They're not going to build new prisons to replace these ones[/QUOTE] except that's stupid? they made a report explicitly citing problems with private prisons due to poor conditions in them. if they plan on transferring the prisoners to places with better conditions they're not going to shove them in overcrowded prisons where conditions would be worse shutting down private prisons and putting them into federal prisons will be an improvement regardless, because they will be moved into a system which is not incentivized by profit in the way a private prison is retaining private prisons and ending the drug war still doesn't fix the problem that private prisons pose
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50910265]except that's stupid? they made a report explicitly citing problems with private prisons due to poor conditions in them. if they plan on transferring the prisoners to places with better conditions they're not going to shove them in overcrowded prisons where conditions would be worse[/QUOTE] Be prepared to be let down by bureaucracy
[QUOTE=Code3Response;50910184]Because its just going to strain all the other prisons. They're not going to build new prisons to replace these ones[/QUOTE] It's a little early to say, but it kind of looks like we're on a [URL="https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/population_statistics.jsp#old_pops"]decline[/URL] in terms of prison populations. It may not be an issue.
Anyone who thinks privite prisons is a good idea, check out the documentary "kids for ca$h" Shows you why they're a terrible fucking idea
[QUOTE=-nesto-;50909788]I assume it's only federal. States handle their own private prisons and they wouldn't be able to bear the brunt of every single one closing down. If that's the case then this hardly changes anything.[/QUOTE] Not all at once, certainly, though with a multi-year timeline and a certain amount of federal funding it would definitely be possible. [editline]18th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=-nesto-;50909937]Feds setting an example unfortunately means fuckall. States do their own thing or else we wouldn't have whats going on in Washington and Colorado or the red states that are fighting same-sex marriage. Shutting them down does nothing but create more problems. Privatized prisons are a reaction to increased incarceration and the expenses that came with it. You wanna shut down the private prison complex? You can start by ending the war on drugs instead of doing feel good bullshit that ignores the heart of the problem.[/QUOTE] Shutting down privatized prisons is hardly "feel good bullshit." It's a matter of fact that they are less effective, more dangerous, and less humane-- as just determined by the Department of Justice itself. Ending the "War on Drugs" is critically important, to be sure, but ending both federal and state private prisons, and replacing them with a more modern, rehabilitative prison system is no less so. [editline]18th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=fruxodaily;50910414]Anyone who thinks privite prisons is a good idea, check out the documentary "kids for ca$h" Shows you why they're a terrible fucking idea[/QUOTE] Watched this yesterday, actually. It's absolutely disgusting.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50910438] Shutting down privatized prisons is hardly "feel good bullshit."[/QUOTE] It is(again, assuming this is federal only because I doubt the DoJ has a say in what the States do). You can shut down the small fraction of federal PPs and distribute them among other federal facilities no problem. At the federal level its nothing. But talking about PPs at the state level, you get rid of the shitty system by getting rid of the shitty system of dealing with repeat, non-violent offenders. Private prisons are a problem but they aren't [I]the[/I] problem. Shutting down state PPs will burden the already crowded prison system and increase cost that the tax payer will have to cover. You're creating a problem to fix a problem.
[QUOTE=-nesto-;50910577]It is(again, assuming this is federal only because I doubt the DoJ has a say in what the States do). You can shut down the small fraction of federal PPs and distribute them among other federal facilities no problem. At the federal level its nothing. But talking about PPs at the state level, you get rid of the shitty system by getting rid of the shitty system of dealing with repeat, non-violent offenders. Private prisons are a problem but they aren't [I]the[/I] problem. Shutting down state PPs will burden the already crowded prison system and increase cost that the tax payer will have to cover. You're creating a problem to fix a problem.[/QUOTE] I never said they were [B]the[/B] problem. Just like you, I said there [B]part[/B] of the problem. You're arguing about nothing. Yes, we need to end the war on drugs. We also need to end private prison systems. Obviously, when we do, we need to make sure we allow for a transitionary period rather than shutting them down all at once, to avoid the issue of further overcrowding prisons. Though, with reforms to nonviolent offense laws, overcrowding may no longer be a problem to begin with.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50910639]You're arguing about nothing.[/QUOTE] Nah, what I'm saying is, trying to remedy the reaction to a problem while ignoring the problem is just more feel good bullshit from this administration. It's like banning pistol grips and the other retarded shit they pull to end gun violence. Nothing will change just because the DoJ ends PP at the federal level.
holy shit, thank fucking god edit: I'd like to believe that over time the DOJ is gonna slowly clamp down more and more on private prisons until they're all dead, so as to avoid damaging the economy by suddenly ending an entire industry :v:
[QUOTE=-nesto-;50910728]Nah, what I'm saying is, trying to remedy the reaction to a problem while ignoring the problem is just more feel good bullshit from this administration. It's like banning pistol grips and the other retarded shit they pull to end gun violence. Nothing will change just because the DoJ ends PP at the federal level.[/QUOTE] It's a good first step, but you're right it doesn't nearly go far enough yet. Kind of seems like a small part of a [I]much[/I] larger issue. The way policing is handled (mainly in urban areas it seems) seems fucked 6 ways from Sunday, and it does not make law enforcement officers' job any easier. I'm just going by general observation here, but it seems to me that the worst departments force their officers to follow policies which focus entirely on the quantity of policing, rather than the quality. I think a lot of their community related troubles would be solved if those departments didn't put officers under so much pressure to fulfill ridiculous quotas which don't make any sense. As it stands now in some areas, some departments seem to have an incentive to arrest or issue citations to as many people as possible, regardless of if they have done anything wrong. Hell some departments seem to outright be running rackets in certain areas like Ferguson. That kind of shit really needs to be shut down hard. To sum it up, I don't think too much is going to change in the way of overcrowded prisons with non-violent offenders until the DOJ starts taking a good look at department policies and management. Some departments seem to get away with training their officers to police so aggressively that they end up preying upon the communities they are supposed to be protecting. I don't think many officers on an individual level want to be part of an abusive system, but they may not have much choice if their management demands them to perform in such a way. It also doesn't help that police officers in general seem to be in short supply from what I hear. I can see why, due the dangerous nature of the job combined with an overwhelmingly negative public perception caused by the overzealous actions of certain departments and officers. I always thought the "few bad apples" argument was completely bullshit, but now I think it's starting to become more apparent that the entire system is flawed, rather than the individual. I wonder how many officers have to break from department policy and risk reprimands in order to do what they know is right.
Something people are missing out on - CCA's shares went down almost 10 points overnight, a 35% drop. Their shareholders are jumping ship. CCA owns private prisons in 19 states and DC. A stock tumble that large will hurt their margins significantly, meaning they'll either have to eat less profit (making more shareholders jump ship), or they'll have to cut back on prison expenses that are already underfunded to the point of intentionally being at the absolute bare minimum standard of acceptability. The DOJ doing this means that the biggest private prison companies, like CCA, will have a very difficult time staying up to code [i]even in private state prisons[/i]. If they consistently do worse than public state prisons, states will follow the DOJ's lead and end their contracts. This could easily be a domino effect that kills off private prisons simply through economic pressure, even if the DOJ doesn't specifically go after state-level private prisons.
I'd be okay with private prisons if they functioned like they intended: replacing the work gangs with work inside the prison where the prisoners get paid a wage and learn relevant workforce skills with the goal of self-sustainability while rehabilitating prisoners. That didn't happen. Maybe we can still do that but it will always be undermined by the second class citizen status felons have after they get out, most of them minorities, so even if they have the tools to succeed it won't matter. They're entering a world stacked against them and it was done so deliberately, which is honestly tied with the [I]insurmountable[/I] amount of laws that came about as part of the "war on drugs." Even if this goes perfectly and our prison system is pristine in a couple of years our criminal justice system is still rotten to the core, so there is still plenty of room for improvement.
the biggest problem with private prisons is that they're directly incentivised to produce profit first rather than to administrate justice first it is for that reason they will always be failures and it's one of the prime examples of where market solutions can't be applied to a problem like idiots in America are keen on promoting
[QUOTE=.Isak.;50912480]Something people are missing out on - CCA's shares went down almost 10 points overnight, a 35% drop. Their shareholders are jumping ship. CCA owns private prisons in 19 states and DC. A stock tumble that large will hurt their margins significantly, meaning they'll either have to eat less profit (making more shareholders jump ship), or they'll have to cut back on prison expenses that are already underfunded to the point of intentionally being at the absolute bare minimum standard of acceptability. The DOJ doing this means that the biggest private prison companies, like CCA, will have a very difficult time staying up to code [i]even in private state prisons[/i]. If they consistently do worse than public state prisons, states will follow the DOJ's lead and end their contracts. This could easily be a domino effect that kills off private prisons simply through economic pressure, even if the DOJ doesn't specifically go after state-level private prisons.[/QUOTE] Stock price has literally no direct effect on revenues. Actually the opposite, the price predicts the value of the firm going forward. The loss in profit is already priced in. It's no surprise really. About a third of their business just got wiped out, and the share value reflects that. But the mere drop in price doesn't affect their state operations. Sure, some states will follow the federal lead but others will just bitch and moan. It's politics.
This is fucking great. Nobody should be profiting from people committing crimes.
[QUOTE=matt000024;50917236]This is fucking great. Nobody should be profiting from people committing crimes.[/QUOTE] Aren't a lot of police departments in America private too? Probably explains why all the prisons are crowded with drug users.
[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;50917272]Aren't a lot of police departments in America private too? Probably explains why all the prisons are crowded with drug users.[/QUOTE] I don't think there is such a thing as a private police department in America. I'm pretty sure they're all run by the counties.
[QUOTE=srobins;50917275]I don't think there is such a thing as a private police department in America. I'm pretty sure they're all run by the counties.[/QUOTE] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police_in_the_United_States[/url]
[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;50917272]Aren't a lot of police departments in America private too[/QUOTE] No. Security doesnt count so dont even try. They are not the police.
[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;50917295][url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police_in_the_United_States[/url][/QUOTE] [quote]Private security firms patrol industrial facilities, commercial establishments, office buildings, transportation facilities, recreational complexes, shopping districts, residential neighborhoods, military complexes, power plants, and prisons.[5][/quote] Security guards?
[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;50917272]Aren't a lot of police departments in America private too? Probably explains why all the prisons are crowded with drug users.[/QUOTE] There aren't any private police departments. It might just seem that way because they're heavily incentivised into practices that result in the state using them to leech money from the lowest economic segments and send it back up the ladder. It's terrible, but it's government-sanctioned theft. It's not private industry. That the bail bonds industry exists on top of all this is a tragic, heartbreaking scenario, but add on to that the fact that every single step of the way when dealing with the cops or going to jail involves you paying money (trust me I've been arrested, basically all that happened was the IRL equivalent of internet paywalls), and that this practice is perfectly accepted by everyone as normal, is totally weird to me. It should not be. I just don't see how any part of criminal justice should ever be farmed out to private industry. None of it makes any sense. There should be no opportunity to make any money whatsoever in any part of the system, period. Any opportunity to make profit off of the jailing of citizens is immoral. Once you're in the system you start to see really ridiculous, blatantly obvious examples of how the system is simply set up to skim money from poor people who use drugs. In my hearing to see whether my bond would remain the same, I had to sit and wait through all the other people, and there was this guy who was there for assaulting someone who already had a restraining order against the guy for assaulting him. I was there for pot. My bond was $20,000. The guy who was there for hurting people with a history of hurting people? His bond was $3,000. I know bonds and jails and stuff are separate from the topic of this thread being about private prisons, but I feel that it's related because I have a problem with anyone making a buck of the hardship of nonviolent offenders at any step along the way.
Private prisons would rather have nonviolent offenders than violent ones, anyways. Nonviolent drug offenders are way less likely to start a fight than someone with a history of beating the shit out of people. If there's a fight in prison, the victim's medical bills have to be covered, too - which is a disincentive to house violent criminals, since they're far more likely to cost more than nonviolent inmates. The lowest-risk prisoners that will turn the highest potential profits are young, impoverished, nonviolent drug offenders and petty criminals. Private prisons have an incentive to get rid of violent inmates as quick as possible to avoid extra healthcare expenses, and the healthcare they purchase to provide for prisoners is literally as dirt-cheap as possible. The government has an incentive to permanently rehabilitate prisoners and reduce recidivism far more than a private prison does. They don't make profit. Government prisons are a money sink. Every prisoner that gets into jail and never comes back is money saved. The entire concept of a free market for prisons is a joke - having a market on humans [i]who have no choice to leave[/i] means that their labor will become a commodity where there is no disincentive for treating them like dirt. It's the same shit as slavery. In a normal labor market, you can [i]quit your job and go find a new one[/i] if you're treated like shit. In a prison labor market, you don't have that, which prevents a free labor market from working at all.
The biggest issue with private prisons is that they create a demand for prisoners. All other issues aside, that's the biggest fattest one.
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