• Survivalist group wants to build medieval-style fortress in Idaho
    258 replies, posted
[QUOTE=DanRatherman;39529492]Facepunch mountain fortress must be erected as a rival state in the post-nuclear world.[/QUOTE] Reddit Island has that covered.
anarchy is bad i saw it in movies
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39529434] and anarcho-syndicalist/communist societies in spain didn't murder "their own people". i don't know where you're getting that from.[/QUOTE] no they just murdered people who disagreed with them
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39530681]no they just murdered people who disagreed with them[/QUOTE] source:
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39530690]source:[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain)[/url]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39530690]source:[/QUOTE] erm its pretty well documented that red cataluña had hundreds of thousands of ideological casualties
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39530711][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain)[/url][/QUOTE] this is mostly republican executions, it doesn't go heavily into how widespread anarchist death squads were(although they certainly existed to some extent).
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39530772]this is mostly republican executions, it doesn't go heavily into how widespread anarchist death squads were(although they certainly existed to some extent).[/QUOTE] [quote]and anarcho-syndicalist/communist societies in spain didn't murder "their own people". i don't know where you're getting that from[/quote] so this refutes it then
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39530787]so this refutes it then[/QUOTE] not really. people going around shooting each other is fairly common during civil wars. riots and murder are widespread. that doesn't mean it was well organized or supported by the syndicates. [editline]9th February 2013[/editline] i mean would you blame the new york riots on the american government and use it as an example to show how republicanism was flawed?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39530818]not really. people going around shooting each other is fairly common during civil wars. riots and murder are widespread. that doesn't mean it was well organized or supported by the syndicates.[/quote] but they did go around shooting them for ideological purposes you said they didnt [quote]i mean would you blame the new york riots on the american government and use it as an example to show how republicanism was flawed?[/QUOTE] wtf that's irrelevant to the argument
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39530871]but they did go around shooting them for ideological purposes you said they didnt wtf that's irrelevant to the argument[/QUOTE] no it's not. i'm saying that these societies didn't murder their own people. would you say that a gangster murdering an innocent person shows how the government murders its own people? [editline]9th February 2013[/editline] my question is were these murders supported or carried out by the syndicates or councils that organized the anarchist societies, or was it gangs of people who were murdering people?
To be fair, anarchy isn't about murdering people who disagree with you. Sure this happened but it doesn't mean all anarchists believe it. [editline]9th February 2013[/editline] That's called grouping but I guess 1 bad apple can spoil the bunch
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39530922]no it's not. i'm saying that these societies didn't murder their own people. would you say that a gangster murdering an innocent person shows how the government murders its own people? [editline]9th February 2013[/editline] my question is where these murders supported or carried out by the syndicates or councils that organized the anarchist societies, or was it gangs of people who were murdering people?[/QUOTE] so you are saying "it wasn't the anarchists fault, but only some of them" [editline]9th February 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Arc Nova;39530938]To be fair, anarchy isn't about murdering people who disagree with you. Sure this happened but it doesn't mean all anarchists believe it. [editline]9th February 2013[/editline] That's called grouping but I guess 1 bad apple can spoil the bunch[/QUOTE] no true scotsman
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39530971]so you are saying "it wasn't the anarchists fault, but only some of them" [/QUOTE] no i'm saying that it might be easier to classify these people as criminals rather than people to represent the implementation of anarchism. i mean is it the fault of the ideology when groups of people get together and murder during a civil war/revolution? even though the people might have been anarchists or leftists, they quite possibly weren't operating with the support of the groups who organize society; unless you can find evidence that the syndicates and councils actually did support or carry out these actions.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39530997]no i'm saying that it might be easier to classify these people as criminals rather than people to represent the implementation of anarchism. [/quote] no true scotsman [quote]i mean is it the fault of the ideology when groups of people get together and murder during a civil war/revolution? even though the people might have been anarchists or leftists, they quite possibly weren't operating with the support of the groups who organize society; unless you can find evidence that the syndicates and councils actually did support or carry out these actions.[/QUOTE] its a problem when you realize all real world implementations of it ended up like that
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531146]no true scotsman[/quote] no it's not. do you say that a liberal murdering someone makes liberalism a murderous ideology? [quote]its a problem when you realize all real world implementations of it ended up like that[/QUOTE] yea and all civil wars ended up with people dying. wars generally involve horrendous things happening, it has nothing to do with ideology.
We all have to admit this concept of a medieval town in modern society sounds cool. And the 'no leader' part gives us all the chance to rise up as a badass dictator like Augustus Caesar. Too bad it has no castle. On an optimistic note, maybe when this thing fails and they decide to tear the wall down we can get Roger Waters to perform "The Wall" there.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531183]no it's not. do you say that a liberal murdering someone makes liberalism a murderous ideology?[/quote] no but anarchism is actively pressing for a revolution all implementations of it have been violent [quote]yea and all civil wars ended up with people dying. wars generally involve horrendous things happening, it has nothing to do with ideology.[/QUOTE] right so if we dont blame the anarchists, who then?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531331]no but anarchism is actively pressing for a revolution all implementations of it have been violent[/quote] most modern anarchists press for peaceful revolution primarily. [quote]right so if we dont blame the anarchists, who then?[/QUOTE] blame the people doing the killing?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531562]most modern anarchists press for peaceful revolution primarily.[/quote] how would one come about? [quote]blame the people doing the killing?[/QUOTE] so those specific anarchists?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531670]how would one come about?[/quote] same way the civil rights act was passed, or the same way unions exercise power. you organize activist groups and participate in non-violent non participation and law breaking. [quote]so those specific anarchists?[/QUOTE] sure, i'm saying that anarchism, or even the anarchist society is necessarily to blame. the specific people are to blame.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531686]same way the civil rights act was passed, or the same way unions exercise power. you organize activist groups and participate in non-violent non participation and law breaking.[/quote] so when will the revolution happen? [quote]sure, i'm saying that anarchism, or even the anarchist society is necessarily to blame. the specific people are to blame.[/QUOTE] who were fighting to establish that society
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531698]so when will the revolution happen?[/quote] what makes you think i have the power to determine such a thing? maybe it will happen in our lifetime, maybe it will happen in 200 years, maybe it will never happen. i have no clue. all i can say it that i would support such a revolution. [quote]who were fighting to establish that society[/QUOTE] like i said, you can't blame liberalism for the actions of each liberal out there.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531735]what makes you think i have the power to determine such a thing? maybe it will happen in our lifetime, maybe it will happen in 200 years, maybe it will never happen. i have no clue. all i can say it that i would support such a revolution.[/quote] What will cause it to happen?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531748]What will cause it to happen?[/QUOTE] organization of the lower classes. activism, practical application of socialist or anarchist principles in the economic system(there are currently limited examples). the idea is that eventually people will become motivated to overthrow the ruling class and seize the means of production.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531769]organization of the lower classes. activism, practical application of socialist or anarchist principles in the economic system(there are currently limited examples). the idea is that eventually people will become motivated to overthrow the ruling class and seize the means of production.[/QUOTE] How come they already aren't motivated?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531845]How come they already aren't motivated?[/QUOTE] i don't know. there are hypotheses abound for that and i don't claim to have that knowledge. i just know that they currently aren't for whatever reason.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531856]i don't know. there are hypotheses abound for that and i don't claim to have that knowledge. i just know that they currently aren't for whatever reason.[/QUOTE] Secondly, what makes you think that people can be motivated to create and maintain such a society?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531867]Secondly, what makes you think that people can be motivated to create and maintain such a society?[/QUOTE] because people have been motivated to do it before.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531882]because people have been motivated to do it before.[/QUOTE] How will you motivate everybody?
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