EU Citizenship for sale, $880,000 - See Malta for details - Polidicks

Not even the USA, in their immigrant come here phase, they did not have entirely free access. Waves of immigrants and shit versus just open borders. I support a wave type system rather than an EVERYONE COME HERE ITS A FRENZY.

[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43309719]It's the country's population decision. Some EU countries still have trouble accepting to give completely free access to other EU members (we all know what I'm talking about). Imagine trying to do that for the entire planet. Won't happen.[/QUOTE] Well I just don't think that people should have the authority to place restrictions on freedom of movement. What advantagedoes a person in a country gain by picking and choosing who gets to move there? Why should people already born there have a free pass? Like tests for citizenship. Why don't people already born there take the test in order to stay in the country?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43309711]Well, usually you need a reason to wield such authority. Why should a nation be given the right to prevent people migrating there?[/QUOTE] Like seriously doing this will make Europe go full fascist/nazi again. Whenever a new crisis would happen the europeans would blame it all on the tens of millions of migrants that would come. Shit like Golden Dawn would be sprouting like mushrooms.

[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43309756]Like seriously doing this will make Europe go full fascist/nazi again. Whenever a new crisis would happen the europeans would blame it all on the tens of millions of migrants that would come. Shit like Golden Dawn would be sprouting like mushrooms.[/QUOTE] This isn't the reason why fascism came about in its form. You don't need tens of millions of migrants to justify a fascist state. It's a convenient scapegoat. If you don't have tens of millions of migrants, you can just blame people outside of the country for your failings.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43309751]Well I just don't think that people should have the authority to place restrictions on freedom of movement. What advantagedoes a person in a country gain by picking and choosing who gets to move there? Why should people already born there have a free pass? Like tests for citizenship. Why don't people already born there take the test in order to stay in the country?[/QUOTE] Doesn't matter what advantages a person would have or not. Europeans are very nationalistic by nature, there's no way the stuff you want to happen would end up nicely.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43309751] Like tests for citizenship. Why don't people already born there take the test in order to stay in the country?[/QUOTE] Because where would they go if they fail?

[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43309769]Doesn't matter what advantages a person would have or not. Europeans are very nationalistic by nature, there's no way the stuff you want to happen would end up nicely.[/QUOTE] I'm a European and I don't feel very nationalistic nor do I see Europe as a whole being incredibly nationalistic. The French Europeans and German Europeans actually joined a political and economic union along with the rest of Europe and besides the Yugoslav wars Europe hasn't experienced such a long period of unbroken peace. If Europeans were incredibly nationalistic we would reject the European Union in its entirety. [editline]26th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43309780]Because where would they go if they fail?[/QUOTE] Same place we put all of the immigrants who failed citizenship tests.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43309791]I'm a European and I don't feel very nationalistic nor do I see Europe as a whole being incredibly nationalistic. The French Europeans and German Europeans actually joined a political and economic union along with the rest of Europe and besides the Yugoslav wars Europe hasn't experienced such a long period of unbroken peace. If Europeans were incredibly nationalistic we would reject the European Union in its entirety.[/QUOTE] Oh fuck it, I give up. This argument could go to infinity and still no consensus would be reached :v:

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43309791] [editline]26th December 2013[/editline] Same place we put all of the immigrants who failed citizenship tests.[/QUOTE] Immigrants that fail go back to their home country. If people born 'here' fail, they're already in their home country.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43309820]Immigrants that fail go back to their home country. If people born 'here' fail, they're already in their home country.[/QUOTE] In that case, one could always relocate them to poor or unstable countries. I mean if we treat humans like that, surely it ought to extend that treatment to all humans. Otherwise, we could always just allow people to live where they want to, instead of barring their freedom of movement and residence.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43309861]In that case, one could always relocate them to poor or unstable countries. I mean if we treat humans like that, surely it ought to extend that treatment to all humans. Otherwise, we could always just allow people to live where they want to, instead of barring their freedom of movement and residence.[/QUOTE] I don't think doing it to some justifies doing it to all. Treating some poorly is bad, but it doesn't mean it's fine to treat more poorly. Plus, at least in the US, much that immigrants get tested on in citizenship tests are taught throughout schools as Americans grow up so I would suspect that's why people born here don't need to take such tests; they're taught its information throughout their adolescence.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43309861]In that case, one could always relocate them to poor or unstable countries. I mean if we treat humans like that, surely it ought to extend that treatment to all humans. Otherwise, we could always just allow people to live where they want to, instead of barring their freedom of movement and residence.[/QUOTE] That's some stupid logic. A person that gets born in a country clearly has a family that lived in the country for quite some time, worked and payed taxes. You would just send the person away, separating him from his family if he failed the citizenship test? The fuck

Also open borders are notorious for having under the table people living there without contributing anything. I don't consider EU open borders since it's an entity that requires citizenship.

[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43309897]That's some stupid logic. A person that gets born in a country clearly has a family that lived in the country for quite some time, worked and payed taxes. You would just send the person away, separating him from his family if he failed the citizenship test? The fuck[/QUOTE] Well that's what happens to many a potential immigrant. Why not get rid of citizenship tests so people don't suffer from that? (Especially if they are arbitrary and pretty useless at measuring anything) How would you like it if you were say a Mexican who managed to move to America, got a job and had family there, and then they got deported just because they happened to be born in a particular location?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43309930]Well that's what happens to many a potential immigrant. Why not get rid of citizenship tests so people don't suffer from that? (Especially if they are arbitrary and pretty useless at measuring anything) How would you like it if you were say a Mexican who managed to move to America, got a job and had family there, and then they got deported just because they happened to be born in a particular location?[/QUOTE] Do they have proper paperwork? If no, sorry.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43309909]Also open borders are notorious for having under the table people living there without contributing anything. I don't consider EU open borders since it's an entity that requires citizenship.[/QUOTE] Immigrants usually tend to integrate themselves into the economic system there. Why would immigrants even come if there are no jobs?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43309930]Well that's what happens to many a potential immigrant. Why not get rid of citizenship tests so people don't suffer from that? (Especially if they are arbitrary and pretty useless at measuring anything) How would you like it if you were say a Mexican who managed to move to America, got a job and had family there, and then they got deported just because they happened to be born in a particular location?[/QUOTE] How is it unfair if they don't have the proper documentation? Compared to what you said, if something's not right the whole family that just immigrated gets sent away Not every new member of an already established family having to take a test and gets sent away if he doesn't pass.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43309934]Do they have proper paperwork? If no, sorry.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ionuttzu;43309958]How is it unfair if they don't have the proper documentation?[/QUOTE] Define proper paperwork? What should be required to immigrate?

I'm just basing my view on Immigration off the classic american model. It had both large amounts of waves, and proper paperwork, worked out fantastically. You want a new life in a better place? Cool, there's a line, sorry. [editline]25th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;43309965]Define proper paperwork? What should be required to immigrate?[/QUOTE] Processed and in the system. Ellis island and shit.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43309970]I'm just basing my view on Immigration off the classic american model. It had both large amounts of waves, and proper paperwork, worked out fantastically. You want a new life in a better place? Cool, there's a line, sorry.[/QUOTE] The first American immigrants (and pretty much all of them up into the 19th century) required no paperwork. Then the restrictions on migration got gradually tighter and began to be aimed at certain minorities over time. Why can't they come in?

As far as I know, much if not all "proper documentation" needed to immigration was just things that identify you as you, like birth certificate and such.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43309990]The first American immigrants (and pretty much all of them up into the 19th century) required no paperwork. Then the restrictions on migration got gradually tighter and began to be aimed at certain minorities over time. Why can't they come in?[/QUOTE] The first Americans absolutely had to have proper paperwork to immigrate. They had to set up charters and get involved with the crown.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43309993]As far as I know, much if not all "proper documentation" needed to immigration was just things that identify you as you, like birth certificate and such.[/QUOTE] Unfortunately now, the "legal" route to immigrating is a rather long winded process that can take upwards of several years (and mostly is dependent on having family members in the country or having lots of money).

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43310019]Unfortunately now, the "legal" route to immigrating is a rather long winded process that can take upwards of several years (and mostly is dependent on having family members in the country or having lots of money).[/QUOTE] Or having useful skills and not just wanting to immigrate because the other side looks better.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43310014]The first Americans absolutely had to have proper paperwork to immigrate. They had to set up charters and get involved with the crown.[/QUOTE] Well not quite. From about the mid 17th century onwards moving to America was as easy as buying a place on a ship that was sailing there. The charters only concerned the initial establishment of political boundaries there. Quite a few Americans came across without having to sign any paperwork at all (especially considering that more than half of the population of Europe was generally illiterate at the time).

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43310073]Well not quite. From about the mid 17th century onwards moving to America was as easy as buying a place on a ship that was sailing there. The charters only concerned the initial establishment of political boundaries there. Quite a few Americans came across without having to sign any paperwork at all (especially considering that more than half of the population of Europe was generally illiterate at the time).[/QUOTE] Not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but I don't think just because it was done way 150 years ago means it can or should be used the same way today.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43310073]Well not quite. From about the mid 17th century onwards moving to America was as easy as buying a place on a ship that was sailing there. The charters only concerned the initial establishment of political boundaries there. Quite a few Americans came across without having to sign any paperwork at all (especially considering that more than half of the population of Europe was generally illiterate at the time).[/QUOTE] And they either came as Veterans, servants, or charters. It was mostly sponsored immigration since it was expensive as fuck. [editline]25th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43310093]Not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but I don't think just because it was done way 150 years ago means it can or should be used the same way today.[/QUOTE] Not 150 years ago. More like 300 to be honest.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43310036]Or having useful skills and not just wanting to immigrate because the other side looks better.[/QUOTE] You do know that part of the reason why America is a first world economy is because they can keep hiring (often illegally) Mexican workers at competitive rates right? Unskilled labour is pretty useful to have around. The wonders of industrialization and mechanization means that a large number of jobs really don't need skills, but just raw labour and maybe a few hours of training at the most. Plus a lot of Mexicans already have experience in many industries and trades and the migratory ones tend to also be the "self-made" guys. They start up small businesses, constantly strive to improve themselves and make more money, and help to keep the American giant humming. If the border was as strictly controlled as people wished it to be, America would be socially and economically stagnant plus not to mention loosing even more ground to China than it already is.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43310124]You do know that part of the reason why America is a first world economy is because they can keep hiring (often illegally) Mexican workers at competitive rates right? Unskilled labour is pretty useful to have around. The wonders of industrialization and mechanization means that a large number of jobs really don't need skills, but just raw labour and maybe a few hours of training at the most. Plus a lot of Mexicans already have experience in many industries and trades and the migratory ones tend to also be the "self-made" guys. They start up small businesses, constantly strive to improve themselves and make more money, and help to keep the American giant humming. If the border was as strictly controlled as people wished it to be, America would be socially and economically stagnant plus not to mention loosing even more ground to China than it already is.[/QUOTE] But America doesn't have a large industry sector anymore, it's mostly a service industry now.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43310093]Not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but I don't think just because it was done way 150 years ago means it can or should be used the same way today.[/QUOTE] 150 years ago America was desperately hungry for people to fill all of that unexplored and uninhabited land it had claimed or bought, not to mention labour to fuel industry with and make a transition from an agrarian into an industrial society. Most of the change since then has been restricting certain ethnic groups from migrating, until finally attempting to restrict it to just bringing in family members, famous/rich people, and anybody with a university degree. [editline]26th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43310144]But America doesn't have a large industry sector anymore, it's mostly a service industry now.[/QUOTE] You'd be surprised how much labour service jobs (and the remaining agriculture and industry) sucks up. Mexicans are hired to do everything from cleaning, fruit picking, building, digging, working in call centers, managing eateries and shops, policing forces, translation services, shipping, manufacturing, etc. One of the reasons that fruit picking machinery is being heavily invested into is because of the restrictions on the number of Mexicans who can work in California.