Spain's Communist Village Is Making The Rest Of The World Look Bad - Polidicks

[QUOTE=deadoon;43154402]So what happens if the opposition is greater than the voluntary society? Or this voluntary society happens to be in an area in which there is a claim by a much larger entity? Heck, I don't see why anarchism in the sense of what Yawmwen is saying is too much different than a direct democracy with a veto or filibuster system of "this group doesn't agree with the majority so no action can proceed", everyone votes on decisions, but anyone can stop it within reason. If say 60% want something the other 40% do not want and the 40% is unwilling to budge about it what does the 60% do? Nothing because the minority doesn't like something? What if they are against it for the wrong reasons, like misinformation, a misunderstanding or simply they do not believe it is the correct way forward? See; nuclear energy.[/QUOTE] if people don't want a voluntary society then it wont exist and people will be oppressed

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154415]murder and arson are forms of oppression. man are you serious? this is your argument? lol[/QUOTE] So is changing society into this. You need that force to remove the 'oppression' and get your non-oppression based government.

[QUOTE=Swilly;43154422]But remember, crime is not a thing in this society![/QUOTE] imagine not being passive aggressive and sarcastic with every post and actually responding like an adult

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154415]murder and arson are forms of oppression. man are you serious? this is your argument? lol[/QUOTE] But he isn't a member of the society. How do you deal with that? As if they were one of your own? but then it isn't voluntary then.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154427]if people don't want a voluntary society then it wont exist and people will be oppressed[/QUOTE] I kinda just wanna punch you both, they say they want a democratic society and that means they're oppressing themselves.

[QUOTE=Swilly;43154432]So is changing society into this. You need that force to remove the 'oppression' and get your non-oppression based government.[/QUOTE] like i said, force is a legitimate response to oppression [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=deadoon;43154436]But he isn't a member of the society. How do you deal with that? As if they were one of your own? but then it isn't voluntary then.[/QUOTE] force is a legitimate response to oppression, arson, murder, rape, all that kinda shit are oppressive acts [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;43154437]I kinda just wanna punch you both, they say they want a democratic society and that means they're oppressing themselves.[/QUOTE] they're oppressing the people that do

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154435]imagine not being passive aggressive and sarcastic with every post and actually responding like an adult[/QUOTE] I've been civil this whole thread and I honestly think this form of society sounds great. What I don't like is the fact that its the only proper society, that somehow others are just completely wrong, obsolete or worse than this. That's a black and white situation which goes completely against anything like equality so it speaks to a very two faced mode of thinking. Life isn't black and white, its grey puked everywhere. You'll probably admit to this and then submit to a system that is incredibly described as black and white by people who idolize it in black and white. Do you see my problem now?

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154438]like i said, force is a legitimate response to oppression [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] force is a legitimate response to oppression, arson, murder, rape, all that kinda shit are oppressive acts[/QUOTE] So it is ok to use force against someone who uses force. I know that, but who determines when it is ok to use force? The community? Then they are setting up rules of conduct, which are little different than laws. [QUOTE][editline]12th December 2013[/editline] they're oppressing the people that do[/QUOTE] Oh so it is OK to oppress people if they aren't following your voluntary rules. Wait, then anyone which doesn't follow them is fair game?

[QUOTE=Swilly;43154464]I've been civil this whole thread and I honestly think this form of society sounds great. What I don't like is the fact that its the only proper society, that somehow others are just completely wrong, obsolete or worse than this. That's a black and white situation which goes completely against anything like equality so it speaks to a very two faced mode of thinking. Life isn't black and white, its grey puked everywhere. You'll probably admit to this and then submit to a system that is incredibly described as black and white by people who idolize it in black and white. Do you see my problem now?[/QUOTE] you have a weird idea of civil. no i don't see your problem because i don't know what you're saying

[QUOTE=Swilly;43154432]So is changing society into this. You need that force to remove the 'oppression' and get your non-oppression based government.[/QUOTE] i got a question for you? is violence ever an acceptable response to anything?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43154477]i got a question for you? is violence ever an acceptable response to anything?[/QUOTE] Ideally no, it never is. Pragmatically? I can't answer that.

[QUOTE=deadoon;43154471]So it is ok to use force against someone who uses force. I know that, but who determines when it is ok to use force? The community? Then they are setting up rules of conduct, which are little different than laws.[/QUOTE] how many times do i have to say that force is a legitimate response to oppression

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154482]how many times do i have to say that force is a legitimate response to oppression[/QUOTE] But oppression is the use of force.

[QUOTE=Swilly;43154481]Ideally no, it never is. Pragmatically? I can't answer that.[/QUOTE] so self-defense is not allowed? if someone was, say, punching me in the face, it is not morally acceptable for me to use violence against them?

[QUOTE=Swilly;43154481]Ideally no, it never is. Pragmatically? I can't answer that.[/QUOTE] you know why i can't live the way i want to live? because if i try, people will either 1. throw me in prison, 2. throw me in an asylum or 3. murder me. if violence is not acceptable then how come our society is based entirely on it [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;43154484]But oppression is the use of force.[/QUOTE] who's talking in black and white now?

[QUOTE=Swilly;43154484]But oppression is the use of force.[/QUOTE] no, oppression is the exercise of power over other people. force is just one way a person can oppress. you, as a feminist, should know that oppression comes in more forms than just force and that force is not necessarily equal to oppression.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43154510]no, oppression is the exercise of power over other people. force is just one way a person can oppress. you, as a feminist, should know that oppression comes in more forms than just force and that force is not necessarily equal to oppression.[/QUOTE] However the use of that power is a force to bend and contort society. You as a feminist know that force begets power, forcing something means you're applying your power to it. We are using broad specutative terms to argue over a broad and speculative form of management and/or government.

[QUOTE=Swilly;43154531]However the use of that power is a force to bend and contort society. You as a feminist know that force begets power, forcing something means you're applying your power to it.[/QUOTE] of course. so the question remains: is self-defense morally justified?

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154500]you know why i can't live the way i want to live? because if i try, people will either 1. throw me in prison, 2. throw me in an asylum or 3. murder me. if violence is not acceptable then how come our society is based entirely on it [/QUOTE] What the fuck kind of life are you wanting to live? [QUOTE=yawmwen;43154510]no, oppression is the exercise of power over other people. force is just one way a person can oppress. you, as a feminist, should know that oppression comes in more forms than just force and that force is not necessarily equal to oppression.[/QUOTE] Force doesn't need to be physical. You can force someone to do something verbally if their will is weak enough or they see you as a higher authority. Did you physically assault them? No. But you used your own abilities to force them to do something you wanted.

[QUOTE=deadoon;43154538] Force doesn't need to be physical. You can force someone to do something verbally if their will is weak enough or they see you as a higher authority. Did you physically assault them? No. But you used your own abilities to force them to do something you wanted.[/QUOTE] for the purpose of consistency and clarity, when i say "force", i am talking about either physical force or the threat of physical force. it can be enacted against a person, thing, or institution.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43154536]of course. so the question remains: is self-defense morally justified?[/QUOTE] I'd say, yes, if its proven that the use of self-defense was necessary for that person's survival.

[QUOTE=deadoon;43154538]What the fuck kind of life are you wanting to live? [/QUOTE] basically you guys were right i want an anarchist society so i can be a murderer rapist and arsonist. nah but what i mean is, to go against society as it is results in you being thrown in jail or killed, if i don't agree with the things my government does and refuse to pay taxes towards these things, i will be imprisoned, if i don't agree with my governments laws and go against them i will be imprisoned. basically you can't be actually free unless you're willing to live as a hermit in the woods or some shit because we don't have a voluntary society, either be apart of it or suffer

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43154550]for the purpose of consistency and clarity, when i say "force", i am talking about either physical force or the threat of physical force. it can be enacted against a person, thing, or institution.[/QUOTE] Does the threat have any meaning if they do not heed it thus they are causing you to escalate the situation by them refusing to comply? Who is oppressing now? Comply with our will or be punished?

[QUOTE=Swilly;43154556]I'd say, yes, if its proven that the use of self-defense was necessary for that person's survival.[/QUOTE] i don't think to ensure survival is enough, i mean, are you not allowed to defend yourself if they aren't going to kill you? [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=deadoon;43154567]Does the threat have any meaning if they do not heed it thus they are causing you to escalate the situation by them refusing to comply? Who is oppressing now? Comply with our will or be punished?[/QUOTE] force as a result to oppression isn't oppressive. if you enslaved me and i said 'free me or i'll kill you' or i fought you for my freedom, am i oppressing you?

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154574]i don't think to ensure survival is enough, i mean, are you not allowed to defend yourself if they aren't going to kill you?[/QUOTE] There is no need to kill a human being over material items, life is more precious then the idea of protection. [editline]11th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154574] force as a result to oppression isn't oppressive. if you enslaved me and i said 'free me or i'll kill you' or i fought you for my freedom, am i oppressing you?[/QUOTE] But what if I was part of another group and both groups wrong each other and blamed each other for oppressing one another. Is it force or oppression I'm using at that point?

[QUOTE=Swilly;43154556]I'd say, yes, if its proven that the use of self-defense was necessary for that person's survival.[/QUOTE] for survival? what if it is not needed for survival, but to end violence that a person is being subjected to? what if i am being punched in the face? that is hardly a life-threatening situation, but i should still be allowed to use force(violent, if necessary) to end that violence against me.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43154595]for survival? what if it is not needed for survival, but to end violence that a person is being subjected to? what if i am being punched in the face? that is hardly a life-threatening situation, but i should still be allowed to use force(violent, if necessary) to end that violence against me.[/QUOTE] Your life is still in danger, getting punched in the face repeatedly can cause brain damage that later down the road can end your life. You are defending your survival on the planet.

[QUOTE=Swilly;43154583]There is no need to kill a human being over material items, life is more precious then the idea of protection. [editline]11th December 2013[/editline] But what if I was part of another group and both groups wrong each other and blamed each other for oppressing one another. Is it force or oppression I'm using at that point?[/QUOTE] well i mean, we're talking self defense here not necessarily killing so yeah i guess i agree with you. and i don't understand what you're saying here

and that gets into another part of violence. that you should only use the amount of violence necessary to end violence against yourself or another person. self-defense is not self-defense if you are "punishing" someone, it is excessive force.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154607]well i mean, we're talking self defense here not necessarily killing so yeah i guess i agree with you. and i don't understand what you're saying here[/QUOTE] Its actually a question I was posed in International Politics during my first year of Uni. Professor asked me whether it was force or oppression if I challenged someone who I thought was oppressing me who thought I was oppressing them.