Spain's Communist Village Is Making The Rest Of The World Look Bad - Polidicks

[QUOTE=catbarf;43154732]Your society is identifying behaviors that it perceives as damaging and punishes people who transgress, with the only option being to either conform or leave altogether. How is it any different?[/QUOTE] because in our case, it doesn't punish people who transgress. [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=deadoon;43154742]And your system doesn't have the threat of "conform to the publics will or face the consequences"?[/QUOTE] no.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43154730]stop right there. no it doesn't. crime is any activity that the state does not want you to participate in.[/QUOTE] Which could be for any reason, which is why we have what people consider good laws and what people consider bad laws. The state does not need to regulate morals, that's not a presupposition inherent to the idea of laws.

[QUOTE=Tmaxx;43154738]you guys in here are [I]so fucking mad.[/I] specifically mom's little anarchist yawmwen. Take a breather fellas.[/QUOTE] how are we so mad? we're having a nice discussion it's good to hear both sides of the argument. sure some people are making pretty childish posts but they're generally being ignored. what are you contributing exactly mommies little whitenoise poster?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43154745]because in our case, it doesn't punish people who transgress.[/QUOTE] If I harm your society, you don't punish? No, seems like you just redefine it as 'oppression' and then suddenly punishment is just fine.

I'm concerned that none of you are trying to address the root cause of violent behavior and instead trying to react as it goes along. It starts with the parents. The brain is a sponge; if it interprets that violence is ever okay then it will seek to rationalize violence any way it can.

[QUOTE=catbarf;43154755]If I harm your society, you don't punish? No, seems like you just redefine it as 'oppression' and then suddenly punishment is just fine.[/QUOTE] stopping someone from killing you isn't punishing them, it's stopping them

[QUOTE=catbarf;43154750]Which could be for any reason, which is why we have what people consider good laws and what people consider bad laws. The state does not need to regulate morals, that's not a presupposition inherent to the idea of laws.[/QUOTE] no but the idea of laws is that it is a top-down system that uses an authoritarian institution(police and courts) to enforce those laws. it just so happens that when you have a system created where imperfect people have control of the system they write laws based on their own morality.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154751]how are we so mad? we're having a nice discussion it's good to hear both sides of the argument. sure some people are making pretty childish posts but they're generally being ignored. what are you contributing exactly mommies little whitenoise poster?[/QUOTE] sweet fuck i didn't realize this was 16 pages long. I was reading the heated argument on the first couple pages and thought that was it sorry.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154737]he literally said to go live in the woods[/QUOTE] He said if it suits you more than to go live in the woods. Nowhere did I see a threat or anything implying that he was forcing this upon anyone. You aren't being banished to the underworld for your beliefs, and how your post was worded made it sound like society just 'disposes' of your kind on a whim, which isn't the case at all.

[QUOTE=catbarf;43154755]If I harm your society, you don't punish? No, seems like you just redefine it as 'oppression' and then suddenly punishment is just fine.[/QUOTE] no, because punitive measure are not taken. nothing is done to punish.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43154745]because in our case, it doesn't punish people who transgress. [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] no.[/QUOTE] So if we don't conform to the will of we can't fuck 11 year olds there is no punishment, even if they don't resist? Or how about if the majority was convinced that eating meat was wrong, is there going to be no punishment for eating meat, despite the public not liking you for it? What if you walked around naked all day and people didn't want to see you naked? Exile you for being different? [QUOTE=yawmwen;43154778]no, because punitive measure are not taken. nothing is done to punish.[/QUOTE] SO nothing we do is punishable, isn't that contradictory to what you just said earlier?

[QUOTE=ahmedsalaam69;43154761]I'm concerned that none of you are trying to address the root cause of violent behavior and instead trying to react as it goes along. It starts with the parents. The brain is a sponge; if it interprets that violence is ever okay then it will seek to rationalize violence any way it can.[/QUOTE] i agree that largely the problems of our society are caused by it, as i said way earlier i think, people are products of their environment and their upbringing, which is why this idea of 'well as soon as people stop saying i can't im gonna mruder rape and arson!' is silly, because we envision a society where oppression is refused in all forms, which is also why yawmwen was pointing out that anarchism is nothing without feminism (and LGBT rights, and all that kind of stuff)

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43154707]i think you are just being difficult now. either way, you agree that violence is morally justified when used to end violence. so then you get into the legal system, which is a series of [b]threats[/b] made against a person. if you do not follow the law, whether the law is moral or not, you run the risk of being subjected to force. why would it not be ok to dismantle(through force, if necessary) the institutions that threaten you with violence on a daily basis?[/QUOTE] That's not being difficult, that's thinking of the overall consequences one can have on someone's life. For people you directly affect whether its through relationship or oppression/force, you leave an effect and a mark. To understate this effect by stating that every person is on their own only leaves this effect to run rampant and wild. The legal system is there to provide threats of force and oppression based upon both the will of the local community and based upon what the state, its representatives believe and those people who elected in the representative. If a system is not working, then you should use peaceful methods first to change and make the rule of law more lenient or stricter. Not scribble all over everything and say its wrong and that it doesn't represent you, because no shit, you're not adding your voice into it. You can go ahead and feed the spiral of silence, but that is your own decision. Do not drag people who throw their voices in with you because you feel obfuscated from society, because your goals are to obfuscate society itself. How is that any better? Violence and force beget violence and force.

[QUOTE=deadoon;43154782]So if we don't conform to the will of we can't fuck 11 year olds there is no punishment, even if they don't resist? Or how about if the majority was convinced that eating meat was wrong, is there going to be no punishment for eating meat, despite the public not liking you for it? What if you walked around naked all day and people didn't want to see you naked? Exile you for being different?[/QUOTE] that's rape. if the majority stops you from eating meat then that's wrong they're oppressing you, why would their be a punishment for eating meat? and again, why would you be exiled for being naked? that's oppression, i personally have no problem with nudism

[QUOTE=deadoon;43154782]So if we don't conform to the will of we can't fuck 11 year olds there is no punishment, even if they don't resist?[/quote] idk how pedophilia would be handled in an anarchist society. it's such an aberration(even in today's society) that the situation would need to be handled delicately and uniquely as they came to the attention of the community. [quote]Or how about if the majority was convinced that eating meat was wrong, is there going to be no punishment for eating meat, despite the public not liking you for it?[/quote] there will probably be social pressure to conform, but not actual institutional punishment. [quote]What if you walked around naked all day and people didn't want to see you naked? Exile you for being different?[/QUOTE] again, social pressure, but no punishment.

[QUOTE=snapshot32;43154772]He said if it suits you more than to go live in the woods. Nowhere did I see a threat or anything implying that he was forcing this upon anyone. You aren't being banished to the underworld for your beliefs, and how your post was worded made it sound like society just 'disposes' of your kind on a whim, which isn't the case at all.[/QUOTE] where did i imply it was a threat or anything like that? i'm saying that's how our society is, you either conform or you basically have to go live in the woods

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154797]that's rape. if the majority stops you from eating meat then that's wrong they're oppressing you, why would their be a punishment for eating meat? and again, why would you be exiled for being naked? that's oppression, i personally have no problem with nudism[/QUOTE] But they aren't resisting and do not deny it. If the majority of the population avoided you for being different isn't that oppressing you? or is segregation and such perfectly acceptable?

[QUOTE=deadoon;43154782] SO nothing we do is punishable, isn't that contradictory to what you just said earlier?[/QUOTE] it isn't contradictory. anti-social behavior would be handled through mediation and restorative justice primarily. in the case of actual "oppression"(people subjecting others to violence), violent methods would be acceptable to use in the midst of the action to stop the oppression.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154812]where did i imply it was a threat or anything like that? i'm saying that's how our society is, you either conform or you basically have to go live in the woods[/QUOTE] I think he missed the symbolic nature of your point. It's just a figure of speech and he's taking it far too literally.

[QUOTE=deadoon;43154814]But they aren't resisting and do not deny it. If the majority of the population avoided you for being different isn't that oppressing you? or is segregation and such perfectly acceptable?[/QUOTE] so if you don't hang out with people you don't like you consider that segregation?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43154778]no, because punitive measure are not taken. nothing is done to punish.[/QUOTE] So if I kill someone and nobody is there to stop me, there are no punitive measures? I'm free? The society does nothing, because I already got away with it? No consequences? No effects? Nothing that could even potentially be interpreted as a punishment? I can stab someone to death in the middle of the night, take everything in his possession and hide it for my own use, mooch as much as I want off the community while contributing nothing in return, and that's A-OK?

[QUOTE=deadoon;43154814]But they aren't resisting and do not deny it. If the majority of the population avoided you for being different isn't that oppressing you? or is segregation and such perfectly acceptable?[/QUOTE] yea if people are using their own sovereignty to avoid you that is acceptable. we all have the right to choose not to associate with other people. how would that be oppressive?

[QUOTE=catbarf;43154825]So if I kill someone and nobody is there to stop me, there are no punitive measures? I'm free? The society does nothing, because I already got away with it? No consequences? No effects? Nothing that could even potentially be interpreted as a punishment?[/QUOTE] punishment is pointless. look at the recidivism of your country (and mine too). noones saying that nothing would be done, only that there wouldn't be punishment (at least in the usual sense of the word, i'm sure you'll just say any response is a punishment)

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154822]so if you don't hang out with people you don't like you consider that segregation?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=yawmwen;43154828]yea if people are using their own sovereignty to avoid you that is acceptable. we all have the right to choose not to associate with other people. how would that be oppressive?[/QUOTE] If nobody accepted you but merely merely acknowledged your existence in the most minimal form, don't you have less influence than they do in votes as you are the outcast in all but title?

[QUOTE=catbarf;43154825]So if I kill someone and nobody is there to stop me, there are no punitive measures? I'm free? The society does nothing, because I already got away with it? No consequences? No effects? Nothing that could even potentially be interpreted as a punishment?[/QUOTE] you will probably be banished. you might be executed as well. it depends on the society. neither of those measures are punitive, though. they aren't designed to "punish" anyone, only to ensure the continued safety of the community. it isn't that people would banish you so you could "think about your actions", it would be people banishing you so you are no longer a risk to their safety.

[QUOTE=catbarf;43154825]So if I kill someone and nobody is there to stop me, there are no punitive measures? I'm free? The society does nothing, because I already got away with it? No consequences? No effects? Nothing that could even potentially be interpreted as a punishment? I can stab someone to death in the middle of the night, take everything in his possession and hide it for my own use, mooch as much as I want off the community while contributing nothing in return, and that's A-OK?[/QUOTE] in a society without possessions why would you kill for them? mooching isn't being a part of a voluntary society

[QUOTE=catbarf;43154825]So if I kill someone and nobody is there to stop me, there are no punitive measures? I'm free? The society does nothing, because I already got away with it? No consequences? No effects? Nothing that could even potentially be interpreted as a punishment? I can stab someone to death in the middle of the night, take everything in his possession and hide it for my own use, mooch as much as I want off the community while contributing nothing in return, and that's A-OK?[/QUOTE] That stems from plain mental illness. If you take actions like that then you have a serious lack of empathy. It's a symptom of a greater issue, not a problem in itself. I understand it's easy to get emotionally attached in a situation like that, but if you are strong enough to view things as they are then it will benefit society in the long term. Leading by example is one of the best ways to influence other people.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43154844]in a society without possessions why would you kill for them? mooching isn't being a part of a voluntary society[/QUOTE] So is there a punishment for mooching or are they just allowed to continue, with intermittent pauses for conversing with them and trying to make them stop?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43154842]you will probably be banished. you might be executed as well. it depends on the society. neither of those measures are punitive, though. they aren't designed to "punish" anyone, only to ensure the continued safety of the community. it isn't that people would banish you so you could "think about your actions", it would be people banishing you so you are no longer a risk to their safety.[/QUOTE] I'm going to be honest, it just sounds like you want to start over.

[QUOTE=deadoon;43154840]If nobody accepted you but merely merely acknowledged your existence in the most minimal form, don't you have less influence than they do in votes as you are the outcast in all but title?[/QUOTE] well yea that's social alienation. instead of being a hypothetical in some anarchist society, it is a problem that is institutionalized by the state and capitalism in the present.