Spain's Communist Village Is Making The Rest Of The World Look Bad - Polidicks

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43161894]i'll just leave this here: [URL]http://c4ss.org/content/22792[/URL][/QUOTE] Got to love how he completely ignores Bradford's full support and optimism about the communal nature of the society from the beginning. Because who cares about people's actual written words when we can make assumptions!

[QUOTE=sgman91;43161915]He starts right off with a false assumption. Humans are great hunters, can create tools, and are able to endurance hunt better than anything else.[/QUOTE] humans are terrible hunters, alone. without a gun or a bow, a human is pretty much unable to hunt on their own.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43161955]humans are terrible hunters, alone. without a gun or a bow, a human is pretty much unable to hunt on their own.[/QUOTE] This just plain isn't true and even if it were human can make bows. So, yeah, there's that.

best we can do alone is trapping small game like rabbits. [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;43161961]This just plain isn't true and even if it were human can make bows. So, yeah, there's that.[/QUOTE] did humans make bows from the start? how did we hunt before any of us knew how to make bows lol [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] this is also ignoring that humanity was nearly hunted to extinction very early.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43161955]humans are terrible hunters, alone. without a gun or a bow, a human is pretty much unable to hunt on their own.[/QUOTE] Spears seemed to work pretty well from the stone age onwards. Hell, even before that you could still sharpen a stick. It's not like endurance hunting sustained regions of humanity for tens of thousands of years or anything.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43161965]best we can do alone is trapping small game like rabbits. [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] did humans make bows from the start? how did we hunt before any of us knew how to make bows lol [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] this is also ignoring that humanity was nearly hunted to extinction very early.[/QUOTE] Fishing, spear endurance hunting (running until the prey becomes exhausted), etc. are all very possible for a lone human to do. I'm not arguing that humans don't hunt better together, but the person you quoted seems to think they can't survive alone.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;43161993]Spears seemed to work pretty well from the stone age onwards. It's not like endurance hunting sustained regions of humanity for tens of thousands of years or anything.[/QUOTE] so endurance hunting was done by a lone hunter? [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;43162001]but the person you quoted seems to think they can't survive alone.[/QUOTE] in the wild? they can't. not for any extended period of time, anyways. fucking look at that survivorman show. a guy who is basically trained in survival is basically starving for 7 days.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43162009]so endurance hunting was done by a lone hunter?[/QUOTE] Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. That depends on the regions and specifics about what was being hunted. More to the point, how is that in any way relevant? Hell. Lets get back to my original question. Please explain [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1332089&p=43161349&viewfull=1#post43161349]this.[/url] You must address this or your entire system is fundamentally broken and doomed to failure.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;43162050]Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. That depends on the regions and specifics about what was being hunted. More to the point, how is that in any way relevant? Hell. Lets get back to my original question. Please explain [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1332089&p=43161349&viewfull=1#post43161349]this.[/url] You must address this or your entire system is fundamentally broken and doomed to failure.[/QUOTE] there's nothing to explain there. it's faulty generalization and begging the question. you say humans are greedy and base your argument on it. i say humans are not greedy. [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] " If we now go over to positive evidence, we see that the earliest traces of man, dating from the glacial or the early post-glacial period, afford unmistakable proofs of man having lived even then in societies. Isolated finds of stone implements, even from the old stone age, are very rare; on the contrary, wherever one flint implement is discovered others are sure to be found, in most cases in very large quantities. At a time when men were dwelling in caves, or under occasionally protruding rocks, in company with mammals now extinct, and hardly succeeded in making the roughest sorts of flint hatchets, they already knew the advantages of life in societies. In the valleys of the tributaries of the Dordogne, the surface of the rocks is in some places entirely covered with caves which were inhabited by palæolithic men.4 Sometimes the cave-dwellings are superposed in storeys, and they certainly recall much more the nesting colonies of swallows than the dens of carnivores. As to the flint implements discovered in those caves, to use Lubbock's words, "one may say without exaggeration that they are numberless." The same is true of other palæolithic stations. It also appears from Lartet's investigations that the inhabitants of the Aurignac region in the south of France partook of tribal meals at the burial of their dead. So that men lived in societies, and had germs of a tribal worship, even at that extremely remote epoch. " [url]http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/mutaidch3.html[/url]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43162109]there's nothing to explain there. it's faulty generalization and begging the question. you say humans are greedy and base your argument on it. i say humans are not greedy. [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] " If we now go over to positive evidence, we see that the earliest traces of man, dating from the glacial or the early post-glacial period, afford unmistakable proofs of man having lived even then in societies. Isolated finds of stone implements, even from the old stone age, are very rare; on the contrary, wherever one flint implement is discovered others are sure to be found, in most cases in very large quantities. At a time when men were dwelling in caves, or under occasionally protruding rocks, in company with mammals now extinct, and hardly succeeded in making the roughest sorts of flint hatchets, they already knew the advantages of life in societies. In the valleys of the tributaries of the Dordogne, the surface of the rocks is in some places entirely covered with caves which were inhabited by palæolithic men.4 Sometimes the cave-dwellings are superposed in storeys, and they certainly recall much more the nesting colonies of swallows than the dens of carnivores. As to the flint implements discovered in those caves, to use Lubbock's words, "one may say without exaggeration that they are numberless." The same is true of other palæolithic stations. It also appears from Lartet's investigations that the inhabitants of the Aurignac region in the south of France partook of tribal meals at the burial of their dead. So that men lived in societies, and had germs of a tribal worship, even at that extremely remote epoch. " [url]http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/mutaidch3.html[/url][/QUOTE] Here is the conundrum, if humans are not greedy, why are we greedy? A system that mitigates the damage of human flaws or individuality to make sure that people are provided for within reason allows how greater advancement. If a natural disaster occurs within your commune and you need to get support, that means that there has to be those to support you, a safety net. Your system, does not allow for protection from wide scale devastation. It does not allow for a proper ability to defend yourselves, as waging a battle where the average grunt has equivalent authority to somebody that has studied war will cause excess loss of life. It makes it more difficult to manage large scale operations required to maintain the current infrastructure of the technology of our world, due to the consensus requirements. It makes it difficult for long distance trade, due to lack of a recognized currency. Unless you are going to rely upon a hierarchical system for every one of those points, you have to give up more than you think.

If someone contributes more to a commune, do they still get the same amount of food as before? Or is their extra work rewarded with more food?

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;43162860]If someone contributes more to a commune, do they still get the same amount of food as before? Or is their extra work rewarded with more food?[/QUOTE] you don't "get" a certain amount of food. food is held in common and people take from it what they want or need.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43162893]you don't "get" a certain amount of food. food is held in common and people take from it what they want or need.[/QUOTE] So I want all the food because I'm really hungry. No one is left with food. Now what?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43162893]you don't "get" a certain amount of food. food is held in common and people take from it what they want or need.[/QUOTE] So there is minimal reward for doing more than your fair share of work? Due to everyone getting what you worked for.

Also where does the food come from if no one wants to be a farmer?

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;43162921]So I want all the food because I'm really hungry. No one is left with food. Now what?[/QUOTE] idk we cut you open and extract the food from your stomach [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=KillerJaguar;43162932]Also where does the food come from if no one wants to be a farmer?[/QUOTE] from the capitalist food fairy

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43162947]idk we cut you open and extract the food from your stomach[/QUOTE] So now you're oppressing me for not contributing to society? [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] Like what happens when you don't pay taxes [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] Taxes in this case being food for the society

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;43162954]So now you're oppressing me for not contributing to society? [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] Like what happens when you don't pay taxes [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] Taxes in this case being food for the society[/QUOTE] there are no taxes

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43162990]there are no taxes[/QUOTE] Then where does the food come from?

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;43162995]Then where does the food come from?[/QUOTE] from the people who grow the food

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43163013]from the people who grow the food[/QUOTE] And why should they give their food to people in the commune instead of hoard it for themselves, so that when winter comes they can stay fed.

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;43163028]And why should they give their food to people in the commune instead of hoard it for themselves, so that when winter comes they can stay fed.[/QUOTE] because they can't make their own clothes as well as someone else. because they can't treat their own illnesses.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43163051]because they can't make their own clothes as well as someone else. because they can't treat their own illnesses.[/QUOTE] So I'll trade you some of my food for some of your clothes or medicine instead.

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;43163161]So I'll trade you some of my food for some of your clothes or medicine instead.[/QUOTE] that creates a system where things that are not immediately useful or that have long-term use to a functioning society are ignored in favor of the short term. i.e. something communism is meant to avoid.

[QUOTE=deadoon;43162560]Here is the conundrum, if humans are not greedy, why are we greedy?[/QUOTE] because we live in a society that promotes greediness? accumulation of capital elevates your status, your ability to influence the society, as well as your ability to gain resources. i think such an unequal system is wrong.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43163242]because we live in a society that promotes greediness? accumulation of capital elevates your status, your ability to influence the society, as well as your ability to gain resources. i think such an unequal system is wrong.[/QUOTE] What is the solution?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43163216]that creates a system where things that are not immediately useful or that have long-term use to a functioning society are ignored in favor of the short term. i.e. something communism is meant to avoid.[/QUOTE] You like to make these points, but you never elaborate further to actually make an argument. How? Why? What if I don't want clothes and want an ax instead? Or what if I can just do everything by myself? Why would I need to help others if I can help myself?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43163278]What is the solution?[/QUOTE] cooperation and collaboration instead of greed and competition. [editline]12th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=KillerJaguar;43163286]Why would I need to help others if I can help myself?[/QUOTE] you don't need to do anything. if you can and want to be an island unto yourself then go ahead and do it. no one's stopping you.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43163291]cooperation and collaboration instead of greed and competition.[/QUOTE] The key, fundamental problem you don't seem to understand is: why should people collaborate and cooperate with each other? Why not just steal from each other instead?

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;43163314]The key, fundamental problem you don't seem to understand is: why should people collaborate and cooperate with each other? Why not just steal from each other instead?[/QUOTE] because it doesn't lead to a sustainable society. people will realize quickly that if we just steal from each other then nothing can get done because no one will want to collaborate on anything.