Spain's Communist Village Is Making The Rest Of The World Look Bad - Polidicks

if generosity can be learned why can't we make a society focused on that rather than on greed

maybe it's learned social behavior, but it might be that as a child gets older their empathy naturally develops more and they take up a greater interest in "altruism".

[QUOTE=Juniez;43130648]which the research attributes as a learned social behavior [/QUOTE] Things based on learned behavior patterns are not impossible just because they are based on that: learned behavior patterns.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43130074]would i be a broken record if i posted that emma goldman quote again?[/QUOTE] Am I the only one who really doesn't get why you think of that quote as so final and definitive?

[QUOTE=froztshock;43130786]Am I the only one who really doesn't get why you think of that quote as so final and definitive?[/QUOTE] it is pretty final regarding human nature. you can't really make a definitive claim about human nature when your only observations of humans are in the context of a struggle in capitalism.

I wish the article had gone into more detail about how labor is divided in the village - it seems mostly agricultural, but I would've loved to hear from people besides the mayor.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43130817]it is pretty final regarding human nature. you can't really make a definitive claim about human nature when your only observations of humans are in the context of a struggle in capitalism.[/QUOTE] I s'pose that point is fair enough. Still, I have trouble taking it with certainty when it's a statement created by an anarchist to address the primary criticism leveled at the ideology that she's spent her entire life supporting, without any backing other than some well-said words. You're right though, until we've had a large-scale society based on anarchism we can't say definitively. How do you think that one would go about dealing with the current population in some kind of transition to a communist and/or anarchist state? If we take the current degree of selfishness as a learned behavior, then it must in some way be unlearned to form a working society for the next generation to come into. Or do you believe that a change in context will quickly change human behavior all on its own? Unless things are instead carried out in such a way that small volluntary communes such as this one are created and then spread over time.

[QUOTE=froztshock;43130931]I s'pose that point is fair enough. Still, I have trouble taking it with certainty when it's a statement created by an anarchist to address the primary criticism leveled at the ideology that she's spent her entire life supporting, without any backing other than some well-said words. You're right though, until we've had a large-scale society based on anarchism we can't say definitively. How do you think that one would go about dealing with the current population in some kind of transition to a communist and/or anarchist state? If we take the current degree of selfishness as a learned behavior, then it must in some way be unlearned to form a working society for the next generation to come into. Or do you believe that a change in context will quickly change human behavior all on its own? Unless things are instead carried out in such a way that small volluntary communes such as this one are created and then spread over time.[/QUOTE] i think that it is something that needs to be unlearned, this is the primary reason why we can't "snap our fingers" and get rid of capitalism overnight. the system will devolve back into capitalism. we need to work towards building a system and unlearning our greed so that capitalism will naturally fall away.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43125907]why is growing food not a job?[/QUOTE] It works in smaller communities that a) either are so inneffective in production that they need many people in order to maintain production parity of the food b) in communities that export the majority of what they produce because they have standard effectivity and as such make more agricultural product than they need.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43130503]so this argument is basically "no it can never work" vs "yea it can work" ok cool. but yea maybe you should actually look up wtf the ussr was if you think it fell due to "mismanagement by the autocracy that inevitably arises in a stateless society" [editline]10th December 2013[/editline] here's a hint: the ussr wasn't stateless.[/QUOTE] I like how you ask him about his experiences with being in a Soviet state, and then reject them when they don't agree with your fixed beliefs. You've still yet to make any cogent argument and have yet to refute any points on why it doesn't work.

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;43131080]I like how you ask him about his experiences with being in a Soviet state, and then reject them when they don't agree with your fixed beliefs. You've still yet to make any cogent argument and have yet to refute any points on why it doesn't work.[/QUOTE] he hasn't provided anything to refute. "i lived in a soviet stateless society that fell to autocratic inefficiency" there is nothing here to debate against.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43131093]he hasn't provided anything to refute. "i lived in a soviet stateless society that fell to autocratic inefficiency" there is nothing here to debate against.[/QUOTE] His whole post was pretty much saying how Marxism is a failed system because humans are so goddamn selfish, and how uneducated you are about the things you preach.

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;43131141]His whole post was pretty much saying how Marxism is a failed system because humans are so goddamn selfish, and how uneducated you are about the things you preach.[/QUOTE] and the post was full of uneducated statements that don't make sense.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43131146]and the post was full of uneducated statements that don't make sense.[/QUOTE] Dude. He was on the ground. You were never there.

Human nature is inevitably what somebody wants it to be so they can pretend their idealized version of society can exist. People acting selfish isn't the reason why non-capitalist economies are generally quite awful. Logistically they have proven quite impossible on a large scale.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;43131181]Dude. He was on the ground. You were never there.[/QUOTE] and i'm on the ground in capitalism.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43131201]and i'm on the ground in capitalism.[/QUOTE] The grass is always greener on the other side [editline]10th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;43131146]and the post was full of uneducated statements that don't make sense.[/QUOTE] Care to elaborate?

"Seizure of the means of production by the proletariat leading to mismanagement due to a lack of strong central authority to make decisions and the management inexperience of the workers" idk when this happened in the ussr and it contradicts his later points. "Social programs reliant upon the voluntary contribution of citizens for the benefit of others failed, and when implemented in mandatory fashion expected too much of the people." is that to say that social programs don't work ever? "Attempts to implement state-level distribution of wealth according to the contribution of the worker were bogged down in red-tape and petty politics, leaving hard-working people without even food, let alone the imagined fruits of the Marxist ideal." that isn't marxist. "Hell, the whole reason the Soviet economic system failed (aside from mismanagement by the autocracy that inevitably arises in a stateless society)" so was the soviet union stateless, communist, worker-owned, state-owned, or what? "was the inability of the system to effectively reward individual effort towards the collective in any direct and personal way." you can say the same thing about capitalism. "as it suffers a slow death by bureaucracy in trying to get the state to implement the rewards that Marx promised would someday be a part of the system itself." that isn't a critique against marxism, it's a critique against the ussr. "'but catbarf the soviet union wasn't Marxist' Nope, because Marx's idea of a stateless society was entirely incompatible with the reality of individuals wanting to seize more power for themselves. Hence why just about every such stateless society in history bigger than your average city block has eventually been subjugated through military power or compromised from within by militant factions seizing power." so we should surrender to totalitarianism or authoritarianism because 'might makes right'? "Paris Commune? Conquered. Spanish Revolution? Dominated by the Stalinists themselves. And don't get me started on China." ezln? "Marxist communism is the 'wouldn't it be great' philosophy for people who haven't learned from the past. " capitalism is the 'wouldn't it be great' philosophy for people who haven't learned from the past

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43131286]that isn't marxist.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=yawmwen;43131286]so was the soviet union stateless, communist, worker-owned, state-owned, or what?[/QUOTE] Because a Marxist society is impossible on a national scale. Past a certain number of people, it becomes impossible to maintain equality as people do their best to fuck each other for their own selfish gains. [QUOTE=yawmwen;43131286]you can say the same thing about capitalism.[/QUOTE] In a communist society, you are paid in bread regardless if you're a farmer, door-holder, or doctor. In a capitalist society, you are paid more money (to which you can spend however you like) when you're a doctor as opposed to a job that requires no skills. [QUOTE=yawmwen;43131286]that isn't a critique against marxism, it's a critique against the ussr.[/QUOTE] The USSR is the closest you'll get to a Marxist society on a national scale. Human nature with pervert the Marxist fantasy to fit their selfish needs. [QUOTE=yawmwen;43131286]capitalism is the 'wouldn't it be great' philosophy for people who haven't learned from the past[/QUOTE] How many advances has Marxist communism provided compared to capitalism?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43125983]if it's over 150 people then it doesn't matter if it's 2500 or 2,500,000,000 people participating.[/QUOTE] The edgy has spoken!

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43130503]but yea maybe you should actually look up wtf the ussr was if you think it fell due to "mismanagement by the autocracy that inevitably arises in a stateless society" [editline]10th December 2013[/editline] here's a hint: the ussr wasn't stateless.[/QUOTE] It's like you just stopped reading after two sentences. As I said before: [quote]'but catbarf the soviet union wasn't Marxist' Nope, because Marx's idea of a stateless society was entirely incompatible with the reality of individuals wanting to seize more power for themselves. Hence why just about every such stateless society in history bigger than your average city block has eventually been subjugated through military power or compromised from within by militant factions seizing power. Paris Commune? Conquered. Spanish Revolution? Dominated by the Stalinists themselves. And don't get me started on China.[/quote]

maybe humanity deserves to fail

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43133435]maybe humanity deserves to fail[/QUOTE] edgiest post of the month

[QUOTE=Juniez;43130085]great solution indoctrination [editline]9th December 2013[/editline] even two month olds have bias and selfish tendencies dude[/QUOTE] So because two month olds display some inkling of self-preservation human nature must be inherently capitalistic? Monkeys can form egalitarian commune-like groups. We are obviously it bit further down the line than them when it comes to sociopathic selfish behaviour on a mass scale but I think that human nature is what we collaboratively make it really... [quote][video=youtube;A4UMyTnlaMY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4UMyTnlaMY[/video][/quote]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43130131]says who?[/QUOTE] Greed is a trait found in everything because it is ultimately tied with self-preservation. Plants express it, animals express it, and humans express it. You can suppress it for short periods of time, but it's always going to come back. Since you never responded to my previous argument, how do you think Marxism would work in an area as large as the United States? How would all the resources (which are geographically uneven) be evenly distributed without angering the areas that have more? How would the society survive against an outside attack? How would they respond to people who refuse to work? Who would organize everything? Would there be anything in place to avoid it turning into a dictatorship?

[QUOTE=cucumber;43131574]The edgy has spoken![/QUOTE] when are we going to stop using this word

[QUOTE=Gentonic;43128545]They support terrorist groups[/QUOTE] what do we really live on the same country

[QUOTE=Atlascore;43126153]Everywhere outside of America.[/QUOTE] America does have some of that though, we share the cost of roads, welfare, etc.

[QUOTE=Falchion;43133617]edgiest post of the month[/QUOTE] Just because he has a statement doesn't mean that you have to be a dick you know. you dick. OP, I'd like to say that I've had similar ideas as you, a utopian society where everybody contributes equally to the 'pot' so that EVERY human may advance happily and safely. Take a look at this. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarian_communities[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Community[/url] I've figured that you may try to change the capitalist driven society that dominates the western world and soon will dominate the rest of the world. However at the end of the day the manpower and effort you would need to change this is unspeakable. You'll most likely tire yourself out. So what I suggest is that you don't need to change the whole world. You change YOUR world. You move to somewhere where they operate in a utilitarian manner. While you may think that your failing to bring hope to others, at least you brought hope to yourself, and at the end of the day you've made one more person happier.

[QUOTE=Boba_Fett;43134651]Greed is a trait found in everything because it is ultimately tied with self-preservation. Plants express it, animals express it, and humans express it. You can suppress it for short periods of time, but it's always going to come back. [/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_Aid:_A_Factor_of_Evolution[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene[/url] hey dude this is an incredibly simplistic look at nature and evolution. selfishness is not beneficial to an organism. "Since you never responded to my previous argument, how do you think Marxism would work in an area as large as the United States? How would all the resources (which are geographically uneven) be evenly distributed without angering the areas that have more? How would the society survive against an outside attack? How would they respond to people who refuse to work? Who would organize everything? Would there be anything in place to avoid it turning into a dictatorship? " all these things require decentralization. communism only works in a highly decentralized system because only local communities know how to allocate resources and cooperate effectively. it's the same sorta reasoning behind "state's rights".