European MPs to Israel: Lift Gaza blockade completely - Polidicks

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22897838]Israel doesn't target civilians specifically, the Hamas does. It's preventing them from getting a lot more powerful weapons and rockets from Iran. What about this? [URL]http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-to-unveil-measures-to-ease-gaza-blockade-1.296393[/URL][/QUOTE] Irrelevant. Hamas only has access to non-discriminatory weapons, and are desperate. Israel do, yet still choose to kill civilians. Is it? How could you know that. I highly doubt this, and require a source. And we'll see.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;22898056]Irrelevant. Hamas only has access to non-discriminatory weapons, and are desperate. Israel do, yet still choose to kill civilians. Is it? How could you know that. I highly doubt this, and require a source. And we'll see.[/QUOTE] Israel has an extremely advanced military, with targeting systems and kill civilians. Hamas on the other hand does not have targeting capabilities, which unfortunately leads to civilian deaths. \ [B][URL="http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6143UB20100205"]Hamas regrets civilian deaths, Israel unmoved[/URL][/B]

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;22898056]Irrelevant. Hamas only has access to non-discriminatory weapons, and are desperate. Israel do, yet still choose to kill civilians. Is it? How could you know that. I highly doubt this, and require a source. And we'll see.[/QUOTE] They fire them on Israeli towns that have no military bases near them whatsoever, and they do so with the intent of causing civilian deaths. Two Iranian ships were intercepted by Israel, one was last year and another a year before that I believe. They were under the disguise of humanitarian aid ships too. I could only find articles about one ship but that should be enough to prove my point: [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8341737.stm?lsf[/url] And without the blockade, it would be a lot more than these two ships. Iran would send more ships because it wouldn't be afraid of Israel intercepting them. [QUOTE=starpluck;22898156]Israel has an extremely advanced military, with targeting systems and kill civilians. Hamas on the other hand does not have targeting capabilities, which unfortunately leads to civilian deaths. \ [B][URL="http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6143UB20100205"]Hamas regrets civilian deaths, Israel unmoved[/URL][/B][/QUOTE] And Israel uses these advanced targeting systems to fire only on locations from which rockets were launched.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22898606] And Israel uses these advanced targeting systems to fire only on locations from which rockets were launched.[/QUOTE] Yes, definitely true: [URL="http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870087,00.html"]U.N.: No Hamas Fighters Were in Bombed Gaza School[/URL]

[QUOTE=starpluck;22898655]Yes, definitely true: [URL="http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870087,00.html"]U.N.: No Hamas Fighters Were in Bombed Gaza School[/URL][/QUOTE] Except Israel has satellites and stuff that shows exactly where were rocket launched from, and only these rocket launching sites were bombed. They may have sneaked up on the roof without anyone noticing, I don't know. Just because no one saw them doesn't mean they weren't there.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22898748]Except Israel has satellites and stuff that shows exactly where were rocket launched from, and only these rocket launching sites were bombed. They may have sneaked up on the roof without anyone noticing, I don't know. Just because no one saw them doesn't mean they weren't there.[/QUOTE] Well guess what! No rockets were launched from there, here's basically what you're saying "Israel knows where the rockets are from so they must of been launched from there! Even though UN officials where there at the time who said their weren't, they must be wrong!" [release]UNRWA's Gaza director John Ging adamantly denied that any Palestinian fighters had entered the compound, let alone fired from it at IDF soldiers.[URL="http://www.hrw.org/en/node/81726/section/5#_ftn26"][26][/URL][/release] [release][B]UN officials said they made dozens of increasingly frantic phone calls with IDF officers as the shells got closer, asking them to stop, and the IDF did not warn UNRWA about Hamas activity in or near the compound. "They should tell us if there are militants operating in our compound or in our area," Ging said. "The fact that they don't, we take that as indicative of the fact that there wasn't."[URL="http://www.hrw.org/en/node/81726/section/5#_ftn27"][27][/URL][/B][/release]

Except they have no reason to strike the school if they weren't actually shooting from the school. The bad press from such actions means that they would be extremely unlikely to attack unless they were damn sure where the rockets and mortars were originating from.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22899400]Except they have no reason to strike the school if they weren't actually shooting from the school. The bad press from such actions means that they would be extremely unlikely to attack unless they were damn sure where the rockets and mortars were originating from.[/QUOTE] And they received all the bad press they deserved. Also, enough with that "Israel wouldn't do that, UN must be wrong" attitude, past evidence shows Israel's dishonest stance such as outright denial of white phosphorous, this is not to say that this is why they're wrong, instead the U.N reports and investigations are sufficient.

[QUOTE=starpluck;22899566]And they received all the bad press they deserved. Also, enough with that "Israel wouldn't do that, UN must be wrong" attitude, past evidence shows Israel's dishonest stance such as outright denial of white phosphorous, this is not to say that this is why they're wrong, instead the U.N reports and investigations are sufficient.[/QUOTE] There is one very simple constant for the majority of nations on the planet: They are all exactly like individual humans at their most primitive level, self serving. Which sounds awful, but it's really just the truth of the matter. It has a rather distinct upside though, because they are self serving, they are generally easy to predict or understand. Denial of White Phosphorus plays directly into this theory. Deny it in order to fend off the negative press. It's a self serving tactic. So when you have actions like an assault on a UN run school, you have to apply the same logic you do everywhere else. WHY. What benefit do they gain here? The only way for this to logically work out is for Israel to not have been lying about the origin of the rockets. Like Israel or not, they aren't stupid. They know precisely what happens when you attack a school. The only way such an assault benefits them is if they are legitimately pursuing an enemy force. However the UN, if they wish to remain in the strip, needs to deny the presence of all terrorist activity on their grounds. The UN is made up of people, and as such is subject to the exact same self serving principle as nations. Whether they know about it or not, serving as a launch site looks extremely bad for them. The people involved could be fired and the school may be shut down. The self serving action here is to deny all involvement. Now is it possible that Israel is lying? Of course. There may be cards at play we don't see. But for the moment, with the information we've been provided, Occam's razor would push us towards Israel telling the truth about the rocket launch sites.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22899857]There is one very simple constant for the majority of nations on the planet: They are all exactly like individual humans at their most primitive level, self serving. Which sounds awful, but it's really just the truth of the matter. It has a rather distinct upside though, because they are self serving, they are generally easy to predict or understand. Denial of White Phosphorus plays directly into this theory. Deny it in order to fend off the negative press. It's a self serving tactic. So when you have actions like an assault on a UN run school, you have to apply the same logic you do everywhere else. WHY. What benefit do they gain here? The only way for this to logically work out is for Israel to not have been lying about the origin of the rockets. Like Israel or not, they aren't stupid. They know precisely what happens when you attack a school. The only way such an assault benefits them is if they are legitimately pursuing an enemy force. However the UN, if they wish to remain in the strip, needs to deny the presence of all terrorist activity on their grounds. The UN is made up of people, and as such is subject to the exact same self serving principle as nations. Whether they know about it or not, serving as a launch site looks extremely bad for them. The people involved could be fired and the school may be shut down. The self serving action here is to deny all involvement. Now is it possible that Israel is lying? Of course. There may be cards at play we don't see. But for the moment, with the information we've been provided, Occam's razor would push us towards Israel telling the truth about the rocket launch sites.[/QUOTE] Exactly. Israel isn't lead by Lex fucking Luthor and the soldiers aren't just mindless monsters. In the end of the day, these soldiers are just as human as you are and they find it hard and cruel to shoot an unarmed civilian just like you do. Claiming that they kill innocent civilians "BECAUSE THEY'RE EEEEEVIIILLL" just doesn't take here. They have no actual reason (at least one that is visible) to injure and kill innocent civilians on purpose. Hell, Israel's PR is in the shit anyway, why the hell would they make it worse?

[QUOTE=starpluck;22898869]Well guess what! No rockets were launched from there, here's basically what you're saying "Israel knows where the rockets are from so they must of been launched from there! Even though UN officials where there at the time who said their weren't, they must be wrong!" [release]UNRWA's Gaza director John Ging adamantly denied that any Palestinian fighters had entered the compound, let alone fired from it at IDF soldiers.[URL="http://www.hrw.org/en/node/81726/section/5#_ftn26"][26][/URL][/release] [release][B]UN officials said they made dozens of increasingly frantic phone calls with IDF officers as the shells got closer, asking them to stop, and the IDF did not warn UNRWA about Hamas activity in or near the compound. "They should tell us if there are militants operating in our compound or in our area," Ging said. "The fact that they don't, we take that as indicative of the fact that there wasn't."[URL="http://www.hrw.org/en/node/81726/section/5#_ftn27"][27][/URL][/B][/release][/QUOTE] They didn't even bomb the school, but the area outside of it, so the UN didn't have such an easy time knowing if there were terrorists there or not.

[QUOTE=A Dead Guy;22900192]They have no actual reason (at least one that is visible) to injure and kill innocent civilians on purpose.[/QUOTE] Two main ones, actually. A belief that this is a righteous "revenge" against the Arabic people for all of the injustices committed towards Israel in the past, and a belief that Islam is an abomination against Yahweh and should be eradicated if possible. They aren't doing it because they're evil, they're doing it because the Israeli propaganda machine has been telling them it's the right thing to do. Plus, there's the little fact that humanitarian groups aren't even allowed to come into Gaza to get construction supplies, because that prompts the IDF to ruin their shit.

[QUOTE=WickedIcon;22907129]Two main ones, actually. A belief that this is a righteous "revenge" against the Arabic people for all of the injustices committed towards Israel in the past, and a belief that Islam is an abomination against Yahweh and should be eradicated if possible.[/QUOTE] Listen, I know people from Israel. I was also there for quite a long time. The people you describe here are fanatic religious folks, that, quite frankly, most Israelis hate. There is no "Israeli propaganda machine" brainwashing soldiers into killing innocent civilians. This isn't the fucking soviet union.

[QUOTE=WickedIcon;22907129]Two main ones, actually. A belief that this is a righteous "revenge" against the Arabic people for all of the injustices committed towards Israel in the past, and a belief that Islam is an abomination against Yahweh and should be eradicated if possible. [/QUOTE] So they attack a UN run school? Your logic would result in mosque bombings. It also doesn't fit in with Israel's general policy thus-far. If they believed they were "righteous", as you describe, the attacks would have been infinitely worse. Again, M825A1 smoke shells aren't an effective means of accomplishing anything other than a smoke screen.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22859636]Because Israel doesn't use it specifically against civilians. Civilians are hit by it too, obviously, but that's war.[/QUOTE] the nazis killed jews, but that's war. [editline]08:49PM[/editline] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22898748]Except Israel has satellites and stuff that shows exactly where were rocket launched from, and only these rocket launching sites were bombed. They may have sneaked up on the roof without anyone noticing, I don't know. Just because no one saw them doesn't mean they weren't there.[/QUOTE] right! because the hamas CANNOT possibly do a hit-and-run!

[QUOTE=Uncle_Earl;22907393]the nazis killed jews, but that's war. [/QUOTE] No, that was called genocide.

[QUOTE=Uncle_Earl;22907393]the nazis killed jews, but that's war.[/QUOTE] No it is not. The nazis used an organized plan to exterminate the jews. Israel has no intention of doing so. The civilian casualties were not deliberate. If you have the bigger gun, you will find that it is much harder to aim with it. If the casualties were deliberate, things would have been much worst.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22907441]No, that was called genocide.[/QUOTE] I agree. Genocide doesn't make a war. A country can engage in acts of genocide while remaining peaceful with every country in the world.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22871431]You do realize, that WP isn't considered an offensive weapon? It's not used against terrorists (it's even illegal to use it against enemy personnel). The WP that was used there was used only to obscure, it wasn't used to cause damage or harm or whatever.[/QUOTE] White phosphorous burns upon contact with air, and it burns hard. Yes, it makes smoke, but this is both irritant smoke, useless for concealing, and second, there's no possible way that air dropping white phosphorous would conceal anyone but the enemy, making it completely useless to drop it in said manner. It was used as an offensive agent, there's hundreds of photos, videos and testimonies corroborating that fact. Probably one of the better ones is this photo. [img]http://www.sott.net/image/image/18741/full/White_Phosphorus_001.jpg[/img] When is the State of Israel going to admit to this? [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22871431]I'd be happy to only kill the fuckers with weapons, but they use the innocent civilians as shields and stuff, it's impossible to do so. Tell me, what is Israel supposed to do, that would defend its civilians without what you might call unnecessary civilian suffering?[/QUOTE] These fuckers are people, these fuckers are made of the same blood and bones as your fuckers. These fuckers aren't just fuckers, there are families of these fuckers, there are sons, fathers, brothers, all being violently murdered. And no fucking legislation is going to defend the murder of civilians in any way. You don't bomb UN schools if you plan on avoiding civilian deaths. This war is pathetic, ridiculous and inhumane. Israel should begin looking for peace, a real truce, or just get out of the UN.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;22908096]White phosphorous burns upon contact with air, and it burns hard. Yes, it makes smoke, but this is both irritant smoke, useless for concealing, and second, there's no possible way that air dropping white phosphorous would conceal anyone but the enemy, making it completely useless to drop it in said manner. It was used as an offensive agent, there's hundreds of photos, videos and testimonies corroborating that fact. Probably one of the better ones is this photo. [img]http://www.sott.net/image/image/18741/full/White_Phosphorus_001.jpg[/img] When is the State of Israel going to admit to this? These fuckers are people, these fuckers are made of the same blood and bones as your fuckers. These fuckers aren't just fuckers, there are families of these fuckers, there are sons, fathers, brothers, all being violently murdered. And no fucking legislation is going to defend the murder of civilians in any way. You don't bomb UN schools if you plan on avoiding civilian deaths. This war is pathetic, ridiculous and inhumane. Israel should begin looking for peace, a real truce, or just get out of the UN.[/QUOTE] This has all already been covered and refuted. And he was referring to the armed militants, not the civilians.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;22908096]White phosphorous burns upon contact with air, and it burns hard. Yes, it makes smoke, but this is both irritant smoke, useless for concealing, and second, there's no possible way that air dropping white phosphorous would conceal anyone but the enemy, making it completely useless to drop it in said manner. It was used as an offensive agent, there's hundreds of photos, videos and testimonies corroborating that fact. Probably one of the better ones is this photo. [img]http://www.sott.net/image/image/18741/full/White_Phosphorus_001.jpg[/img] When is the State of Israel going to admit to this?[/QUOTE] The use of white phosphorus was a mistake, and I condemn it. [QUOTE=Big Bang;22908096]These fuckers are people, these fuckers are made of the same blood and bones as your fuckers. These fuckers aren't just fuckers, there are families of these fuckers, there are sons, fathers, brothers, all being violently murdered. And no fucking legislation is going to defend the murder of civilians in any way. You don't bomb UN schools if you plan on avoiding civilian deaths. This war is pathetic, ridiculous and inhumane. Israel should begin looking for peace, a real truce, or just get out of the UN.[/QUOTE] OH, so Israel should just take it as Hamas fires from UN buildings? How can you avoid civilian deaths completely in a tight, urban environment? Why did Hamas start firing rockets at Israel in the first place? (may I remind you that they started firing them even before the blockade was established)? And how the hell are you supposed to reach a long-term truce, a true peace, with an organization that doesn't even recognize you? Also, thanks for ignoring all the previous posts.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22899857]There is one very simple constant for the majority of nations on the planet: They are all exactly like individual humans at their most primitive level, self serving. Which sounds awful, but it's really just the truth of the matter. It has a rather distinct upside though, because they are self serving, they are generally easy to predict or understand. Denial of White Phosphorus plays directly into this theory. Deny it in order to fend off the negative press. It's a self serving tactic. So when you have actions like an assault on a UN run school, you have to apply the same logic you do everywhere else. WHY. What benefit do they gain here? The only way for this to logically work out is for Israel to not have been lying about the origin of the rockets. Like Israel or not, they aren't stupid. They know precisely what happens when you attack a school. The only way such an assault benefits them is if they are legitimately pursuing an enemy force. However the UN, if they wish to remain in the strip, needs to deny the presence of all terrorist activity on their grounds. The UN is made up of people, and as such is subject to the exact same self serving principle as nations. Whether they know about it or not, serving as a launch site looks extremely bad for them. The people involved could be fired and the school may be shut down. The self serving action here is to deny all involvement. Now is it possible that Israel is lying? Of course. There may be cards at play we don't see. But for the moment, with the information we've been provided, Occam's razor would push us towards Israel telling the truth about the rocket launch sites.[/QUOTE] Not quite. Strategically I can't see what point there would be to launch smoke screen when it doesn't cover the advancement of any units. Now, it isn't illegal to use against military targets, despite it being highly incendiary, it is, however, illegal to use in a civilian area such as the school in Bayt Lahiya. What would the point be then? If there was an actual threat located at the school, which I find highly doubtful, wouldn't it make more sense to fire something else, or you know, move in with infantry? Why fire WP? One could argue, that WP has an extremely demoralizing effect on the civilian populace, which Israel would have a great interest in, or it could serve to pressure Hamas.

[QUOTE=Glorbo;22908249] OH, so Israel should just take it as Hamas fires from UN buildings? How can you avoid civilian deaths completely in a tight, urban environment? Why did Hamas start firing rockets at Israel in the first place? (may I remind you that they started firing them even before the blockade was established)? And how the hell are you supposed to reach a long-term truce, a true peace, with an organization that doesn't even recognize you? Also, thanks for ignoring all the previous posts.[/QUOTE] Easy, by not using non guided incendiary ammunition on a heavily populated area. The use of such high ordinance dumb ammunition is covered in one convention, dunno if Vienna. The United States did not for example throw bombs on the Battle of Mogadishu. The problem with this war is that the violence is mutual, and Palestine is losing. If either side does not stop, it's going to end with the genocide of either side. And I don't think it's really adequate for a Jewish nation to advocate for genocide. Israel is the one that should be responsible for leaving this stupid holy war aside and giving the first step upon peace. On the topic of international recognition, you should look up the amount of states that recognize Palestine. Palestine doesn't even vote in the UN, and Israel does not recognize Palestine. It's all mutual.

[QUOTE=Taishu;22909496]Not quite. Strategically I can't see what point there would be to launch smoke screen when it doesn't cover the advancement of any units. Now, it isn't illegal to use against military targets, despite it being highly incendiary, it is, however, illegal to use in a civilian area such as the school in Bayt Lahiya. What would the point be then? If there was an actual threat located at the school, which I find highly doubtful, wouldn't it make more sense to fire something else, or you know, move in with infantry? Why fire WP? One could argue, that WP has an extremely demoralizing effect on the civilian populace, which Israel would have a great interest in, or it could serve to pressure Hamas.[/QUOTE] The school in Beit Lahiya was admitted to be a mistake I believe. Missing with artillery due to improper data relayed to the launch team is incredibly common. Given that the same shells used for smoke are also marking shells, it's entirely possible that an artillery strike was being lined up and the marking shell was called down onto the wrong location. There was heavy fighting near the school. Further accidental deaths in the school were caused by a tank missing its target (or simply shooting through accidentally) and hitting the school. It would also make sense that artillery was being sighted in. If it was a quick smoke or a barrage intended to cause chaos, each would have certain patterns. But the shell that hit the school was by itself.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22910467]The school in Beit Lahiya was admitted to be a mistake I believe. [/QUOTE] It seems like the IDF is extraordinarily susceptible to "mistakes".

Its not a mistake if you bomb those areas and ban the journalists in there.

Is cool that international burocracy can't do shit against Israel. There is a justice in the world sometimes. Rule of the modern world №1: these, who are defeated, always right no matter what they did. Hamas firing rockets, using civillians as a living shield (more often just to take more casualties), it's all okay. They are just FIGHTING FOR FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY! But when Israel strikes back, European governments go all like BAWWW, STOP KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE. I'm glad that my country is neutral at this point. Our people mainly support Israel, we all know what it is.

I wonder if BurnEmDown has served his 2 years in the Military yet.

[QUOTE=doonbugie;22918892]I wonder if BurnEmDown has served his 2 years in the Military yet.[/QUOTE] Nope, and that's 3 years. I'll soon be enlisted though, then it's terrorist killing time! :clint:

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22919112]Nope, and that's 3 years. I'll soon be enlisted though, then it's terrorist killing time! :clint:[/QUOTE] You're so excited aren't you. My friend was just like you, now he hates the IDF to guts.