European MPs to Israel: Lift Gaza blockade completely - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Taishu;22921965]Sources? Maybe it's time to revision your tactics, when they result in the deaths of nearly twice as many civilians as enemy combatants.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/01/AR2010020102379.html[/url] I'm no army expert but as far as I know they've taken a lot of measures to reduce civilian deaths. For example they called houses that were about to be bombed, and told the people to leave. They dropped flyers telling when and where are they going to bomb soon, so the people won't get hurt. There were cases where Hamas officers got calls and refused to let their family leave, saying they will all be martyrs.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22922196][URL]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/01/AR2010020102379.html[/URL] [/QUOTE] [url]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7010851.ece[/url]

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22922196][URL]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/01/AR2010020102379.html[/URL] I'm no army expert but as far as I know they've taken a lot of measures to reduce civilian deaths. For example they called houses that were about to be bombed, and told the people to leave. They dropped flyers telling when and where are they going to bomb soon, so the people won't get hurt. There were cases where Hamas officers got calls and refused to let their family leave, saying they will all be martyrs.[/QUOTE] Are you kidding me That's comparable to Free Fire zones in Vietnam. Aka, useless.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22922196][url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/01/AR2010020102379.html[/url] I'm no army expert but as far as I know they've taken a lot of measures to reduce civilian deaths. For example they called houses that were about to be bombed, and told the people to leave. They dropped flyers telling when and where are they going to bomb soon, so the people won't get hurt. There were cases where Hamas officers got calls and refused to let their family leave, saying they will all be martyrs.[/QUOTE] Doesn't that defeat the purpose of bombing that area in the first place? "Hey, guess what? we're going to bomb your street in oh, about 20 minutes, so it would be best to just pop off somewhere else for a bit" So hamas fighters would know where bombs are being targeted, silly IDF.

[QUOTE=starpluck;22922222][url]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7010851.ece[/url][/QUOTE] "One defence official described the punishment as a “slap on the wrist.”" He said that it wasn't enough of a punishment. I agree, but they were sentenced and punished. It doesn't say how they were specifically punished though, other than "a mild reprimand and a *note* placed in their personal files noting their involvement".

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22922343]"One defence official described the punishment as a “slap on the wrist.”" He said that it wasn't enough of a punishment. I agree, but they were sentenced and punished. It doesn't say how they were specifically punished though, other than "a mild reprimand and a *note* placed in their personal files noting their involvement".[/QUOTE] You know that means nothing right? No punishment whatsoever, just an attempt at damage control for the media.

[QUOTE=hehe;22922340]Doesn't that defeat the purpose of bombing that area in the first place? "Hey, guess what? we're going to bomb your street in oh, about 20 minutes, so it would be best to just pop off somewhere else for a bit" So hamas fighters would know where bombs are being targeted, silly IDF.[/QUOTE] So when the IDF bombs places it's silly, but when it tells ahead to reduce civilian casualties it's silly too?

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22922370]So when the IDF bombs places it's silly, but when it tells ahead to reduce civilian casualties it's silly too?[/QUOTE] you missed the point, they pretty much alert insurgents where they're going to bomb, giving them plenty of time to evacuate, ultimately just bombing some empty homes and a couple of pets.

[QUOTE=starpluck;22922366]You know that means nothing right? No punishment whatsoever, just an attempt at damage control for the media.[/QUOTE] That doesn't necessarily mean nothing. It's a mild reprimand, not a weak one. I think they should be sent to jail for a few years, but I'm no judge. The IDF is very strict on these things, and I doubt they were let off without real punishment. [editline]04:41PM[/editline] [QUOTE=hehe;22922390]you missed the point, they pretty much alert insurgents where they're going to bomb, giving them plenty of time to evacuate, ultimately just bombing some empty homes and a couple of pets.[/QUOTE] They can take the pets with them. And I'm sure it still accomplishes a goal, or else they wouldn't have done that.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22922404]he IDF is very strict on these things, and I doubt they were let off without real punishment. .[/QUOTE] Source?

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22922404] And I'm sure it still accomplishes a goal, or else they wouldn't have done that.[/QUOTE] and what goal would that be? bombing the homes of innocent people? This tactic is similar to the Free Fire Zone tactic employed by the Americans during Vietnam, it doesn't achieve much and ends in the death of civilans. Edit: also, source on the tactic employed by the IDF ever being sucessful

[QUOTE=hehe;22922473]and what goal would that be? bombing the homes of innocent people? This tactic is similar to the Free Fire Zone tactic employed by the Americans during Vietnam, it doesn't achieve much and ends in the death of civilans. Edit: also, source on the tactic employed by the IDF ever being sucessful[/QUOTE] When the enemy adopts civilians as camouflage, civilians die. It's what happens. It's why adopting the policy is so unbelievably fucked up in the first place.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22922547]When the enemy adopts civilians as camouflage, civilians die. It's what happens. It's why adopting the policy is so unbelievably fucked up in the first place.[/QUOTE] Hamas does not adapt civilian camouflage.

[QUOTE=starpluck;22922560]Hamas does not adapt civilian camouflage.[/QUOTE] They are a terrorist organization that hides its armories and weapon caches in civilian populated areas. It hasn't been that long since they were throwing suicide bombers at people in Israel.

[QUOTE=starpluck;22922434]Source?[/QUOTE] Your source states "mild punishment". Which means, not too easy and not too hard. My guess is that they got AT LEAST one year at prison, since too easy a punishment would be like half a year or no prison at all.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22922608]They are a terrorist organization that hides its armories and weapon caches in civilian populated areas. It hasn't been that long since they were throwing suicide bombers at people in Israel.[/QUOTE] Hamas does not adapt civilian camouflage. [QUOTE=Warhol;22920676][IMG]http://palestinenote.com/cs/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Blogs.Components.WeblogFiles/news/2350.Hamas-_2D00_-MATEUS.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43048000/jpg/_43048929_flag_416_afp.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43048000/jpg/_43048983_office_416_ap.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43049000/jpg/_43049047_alaqsa_200_afp.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43046000/jpg/_43046853_militants_416_afp.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0706/hamas_fatah_0612.jpg[/IMG] all of these are during/before/directly after battle so black BDU's, large green vests, face masks and fucking guns... aren't military looking?[/QUOTE] [IMG]http://www.seraphicpress.com/images/hamas-parade.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://robertod.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/hamas.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_64itAtqJIlY/RgdHfUTV5VI/AAAAAAAAAms/SLMqGHw63TQ/s400/Hamas%2Bcombat%2Bskills.jpg[/IMG] Stop calling it a terrorist organization when only a few countries including Israel itself and its allies recognizes it as one. They were democratically elected just like Israel, and just like how Hamas can classify the IDF as terrorist. They also fund schools, orphanages etc. [editline]04:58PM[/editline] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22922630]Your source states "mild punishment". Which means, not too easy and not too hard. My guess is that they got AT LEAST one year at prison, since too easy a punishment would be like half a year or no prison at all.[/QUOTE] lol A slap in the wrist does not mean a one year sentence.

[QUOTE=starpluck;22922651] lol A slap in the wrist does not mean a one year sentence.[/QUOTE] One guy called it a slap on the wrist, one guy, and they make it into a headline. He's one of the defense officials. In the report they almost don't talk about the sentence or the trial, but mostly about the events regarding it.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22922727]One guy called it a slap on the wrist, one guy, and they make it into a headline. He's one of the defense officials. In the report they almost don't talk about the sentence or the trial, but mostly about the events regarding it.[/QUOTE] Yeah, that's my point. A defense official said it was a slap on the wrist, don't worry, hes reputable enough.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22922630]Your source states "mild punishment". Which means, not too easy and not too hard. My guess is that they got AT LEAST one year at prison, since too easy a punishment would be like half a year or no prison at all.[/QUOTE] I doubt they got thrown in jail. Sources?

Hey look, these guys wear vests and masks too! [img]http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/6205/somalia1124.jpg[/img] [img]http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/8079/pakistan2172f.jpg[/img] [img]http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/9652/87f34bf4a563b894dcc47cf.jpg[/img] [img]http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9592/algislamistrebels.jpg[/img] Al-Queda, al-shabaab, and Taliban. But surely having training camps makes them not terrorists! Nevermind the headbands saying "there is no god but Allah" and the suicide bombers. Because you have pictures of them in combat gear and in training camps, it doesn't make them a uniformed military. The only thing different about Hamas is that they are surrounded by the idiots who elected them. They elected terrorists, and now they are being attacked as a result. The only thing surprising here is that the entire strip hasn't been burnt to the ground as a direct result of the unbelievable ineptitude and irresponsible attacks of the Hamas government.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22922945]Hey look, these guys wear vests and masks too! [IMG]http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/6205/somalia1124.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/8079/pakistan2172f.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/9652/87f34bf4a563b894dcc47cf.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9592/algislamistrebels.jpg[/IMG] Al-Queda, al-shabaab, and Taliban. But surely having training camps makes them not terrorists! Nevermind the headbands saying "there is no god but Allah" and the suicide bombers. Because you have pictures of them in combat gear and in training camps, it doesn't make them a uniformed military. The only thing different about Hamas is that they are surrounded by the idiots who elected them. They elected terrorists, and now they are being attacked as a result. The only thing surprising here is that the entire strip hasn't been burnt to the ground as a direct result of the unbelievable ineptitude and irresponsible attacks of the Hamas government.[/QUOTE] Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are different then Hamas, its unorganized and usually they don't wear combat gear. I post I quoted had them during/before/after combat. The only thing different about the Israeli government is that they are surrounded by the idiots who elected them. They elected terrorists, and now they are being attacked as a result. The only thing surprising here is that Israel hasn't been burnt to the ground as a direct result of the unbelievable ineptitude and irresponsible attacks of the Israeli government.

During gun battles they wear that stuff too. It's the point. But generally, the problem isn't the gun battles, its the rest of the time. Why do you think they wear masks? The rest of the time they blend back into the civilian population. Its these same people that blend into the population that step on a bus and turn it into a pile of smoldering scrap metal and human remains. They launch ROCKETS at RANDOM CIVILIAN POPULATION CENTERS. They know full well the rockets themselves won't do much harm. They do it to cause TERROR. Hence TERRORISTS.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22922945] Because you have pictures of them in combat gear and in training camps, it doesn't make them a uniformed military. The only thing different about Hamas is that they are surrounded by the idiots who elected them. They elected terrorists, and now they are being attacked as a result. The only thing surprising here is that the entire strip hasn't been burnt to the ground as a direct result of the unbelievable ineptitude and irresponsible attacks of the Hamas government.[/QUOTE] I'd say it's more surprising that Israel hasn't burnt to the ground the people it is attempting to "save". Because now it seems you save someone by killing and destroying everything near them. Still, who is the State of Israel to deem them as terrorists? Is Israel going to provide any sort of healthcare to those wounded in the attacks to Palestine? Is Israel going to take responsibility for those wounded or killed during the Intifadas, during the Gaza war? Who's gonna take into care the people who would be expatriated once Palestine becomes wholly absorbed by Israel?

[QUOTE=GunFox;22923046]During gun battles they wear that stuff too. It's the point. The problem isn't the gun battles, its the rest of the time. Why do you think they wear masks? The rest of the time they blend back into the civilian population. Its these same people that blend into the population that step on a bus and turn it into a pile of smoldering scrap metal and human remains. They launch ROCKETS at RANDOM CIVILIAN POPULATION CENTERS. They know full well the rockets themselves won't do much harm. They do it to cause TERROR. Hence TERRORISTS.[/QUOTE] They were masks due to culture and tradition, its not blending in with the civilians :doh:, hence why they have [B]heavily distinguishable [/B]uniforms. There's so much wrong with the last sentence it's not even funny. First let's examine a few facts. Unlike Israel, Hamas does not possess targeting capabilities, therefore they can't really decide where the rockets goes. On the other hand, during the Gaza Massacre, guess what? Hamas only killed 3 civilians while killing 10 soldiers! Do you know what that means? I'll let you think about it. Furthermore, Israel has the ability to target and devastated Gaza by bombing civilian and U.N infrastructure which did NOT [B]harbor any Hamas personnel[/B]. Therefore, according to your logic, the IDF is a terrorist branch of the Israeli government.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;22923078]I'd say it's more surprising that Israel hasn't burnt to the ground the people it is attempting to "save". Because now it seems you save someone by killing and destroying everything near them. Still, who is the State of Israel to deem them as terrorists? Is Israel going to provide any sort of healthcare to those wounded in the attacks to Palestine? Is Israel going to take responsibility for those wounded or killed during the Intifadas, during the Gaza war? Who's gonna take into care the people who would be expatriated once Palestine becomes wholly absorbed by Israel?[/QUOTE] It isn't just Israel calling them terrorists. It's the US, Canada, Japan, and the EU. There isn't even a tiny ledge to stand on here. Hamas is a terrorist organization.

[QUOTE=GunFox;22923164]It isn't just Israel calling them terrorists. It's the US, Canada, Japan, and the EU. There isn't even a tiny ledge to stand on here. Hamas is a terrorist organization.[/QUOTE] That's not even remotely half of the countries in the world. How about the rest of America, Asia, Oceania, Africa and Europe? The Hamas has opted and called for two way diplomacy. The interest of Hamas is defending the Palestinian Territories, not overtaking Israel's. That's why you don't see Palestines demolishing Israeli homes. If all, the IDF seems like the more "terrorist" of the two. But hell, since terrorist is apparently such a big buzzword, I'll go with a more realistic term, The IDF is committing genocide.

[QUOTE=starpluck;22922982]The only thing surprising here is that Israel hasn't been burnt to the ground as a direct result of the unbelievable ineptitude and irresponsible attacks of the Israeli government.[/QUOTE] The funny thing is, is that would happen had Israel not had such a powerful army.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22923550]The funny thing is, is that would happen had Israel not had such a powerful army.[/QUOTE] Which is all funded by us.

[QUOTE=starpluck;22923136]There's so much wrong with the last sentence it's not even funny. First let's examine a few facts. Unlike Israel, Hamas does not possess targeting capabilities, therefore they can't really decide where the rockets goes.[/quote] There's a solution to that: don't launch the rockets. [quote]On the other hand, during the Gaza Massacre, guess what? Hamas only killed 3 civilians while killing 10 soldiers! Do you know what that means? I'll let you think about it.[/quot] Irrelevant. If the Hamas could kill more they would have. We're only lucky that they only have shit-rockets that can't harm a fly. [quote]Furthermore, Israel has the ability to target and devastated Gaza by bombing civilian and U.N infrastructure which did NOT [B]harbor any Hamas personnel[/B]. Therefore, according to your logic, the IDF is a terrorist branch of the Israeli government.[/QUOTE] Note that, the UN school in the famous picture, wasn't directly bombed, only the playground nearby it, and there were rockets launched from it. It says so right in the (CNN's or whatever, can't remember) news report. [editline]06:03PM[/editline] [QUOTE=starpluck;22923575]Which is all funded by us.[/QUOTE] 3$ billion a year to add to Israel's 200$ billion yearly GDP, out of which a 1/3 or so is going into the army. I doubt that without the 3$ billion the army would be weakened much.

[QUOTE=starpluck;22923136]On the other hand, during the Gaza Massacre, guess what? Hamas only killed 3 civilians while killing 10 soldiers! Do you know what that means? I'll let you think about it.[/QUOTE] Actually it's six soldiers, seeing as four of them died due to friendly fire.