• EU referendum: Cameron sets 23rd June date for UK vote
    53 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Dr.Critic;49779136]The whole campaign is a near perfect smoke screen for Cameron, considering how much attention its taken away from Tory cuts, particularly with the NHS. We're going to pay £100 billion for a new Trident update that we can't ever use of solely our own will, even on doomsday without American permission. We're subsiding the American nuclear arsenal, and the same people who have no objection to this are outraged that we spend £12 billion a year on EU membership. They're outraged that the EU is supposedly a threat to our sovereignty, based on some made up crap about not being able to dictate the flow of immigration and having all our laws be written by brussels, yet they've got nothing to say when you point out that we're basically American vassals. When America barks, we yip at its feet. It doesn't matter how much of the membership fees are repaid by trade benefits or political voice, or that we've already put a refugee hard cap at 20,000 and opted out of the refugee response, because this campaign is about who can scream rhetoric the loudest[/QUOTE] If you think Cameron wants the referendum as a 'smoke screen' you're literally insane and need medicine for your rabid conspiracy theories. This is the most dangerous moment of his political career.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49779152]If you think Cameron wants the referendum as a 'smoke screen' you're literally insane and need medicine for your rabid conspiracy theories. This is the most dangerous moment of his political career.[/QUOTE] I didn't say it was some grand plan or that Cameron instigated the referendum for a smoke screen, but I think that it will work out that way such that it draws attention away from important issues
[QUOTE=Dr.Critic;49779165]I didn't say it was some grand plan or that Cameron instigated the referendum for a smoke screen, but I think that it will work out that way such that it draws attention away from important issues[/QUOTE] Probably true.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49779152]If you think Cameron wants the referendum as a 'smoke screen' you're literally insane and need medicine for your rabid conspiracy theories. This is the most dangerous moment of his political career.[/QUOTE] Cameron doesn't, but a vast chunk of the Tory party do, a lot of them would love total unrestrained power and I'm sure a lot of them are very happy to have the drama draw attention away from the NHS crisis.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49779119]Three. Vote Leave, Leave.EU and GrassrootsOut[/QUOTE] Leave.EU [url=https://leave.eu/en/news/2016-02-16/leaveeu-comment-on-joining-the-go-movement]has joined GrassrootsOut[/url] and supports them
why is this decision even up to the public your average person doesn't have a clue about what it actually means to be in the EU
I don't think leaving the EU would solve all (if any) of the country's issues.
I'll have to wait for what sides bring to the table, I've always been a skeptic. But unless leaving can be shown to be positive in years to come I'll probably vote to stay in.
Many people here are mis-informed\have a biased opinion of the UK leaving the EU based on what others say here. The UK would be better off outside the EU, politically, socially and economically. The key issue being, that the EU has gone from an economic and trade agreement to a political entity that overrides the laws of client countries and has been centralizing power to Brussels, controlled by elitists and unelected officials who are not accountable for their actions and have nothing invested in the countries they are evoking laws and legislation upon. Right now the UK like other EU nations are unable to self-govern and express their sovereignty and the will of it's people without the potential for being overruled by a corrupt bloated bureaucracy that is the EU. This is very dangerous to the balance of power, a country that can no longer decide it's own laws is not a country but a puppet and the eu sets a precedence of false democracy, where what you vote isn't what you get. One obvious example which the left bring up all the time of this is being unable to define and enforce immigration, welfare and social laws that have already been defined by the EU. Other such issues would be financial legislation, such as VATMOSS which has put thousands of small businesses in jeopardy of which many have shut down because brussels decided they wanted a common vat law across the EU without thinking about the consequences for small businesses. I for one want to be able to hold politicians accountable for the way they handle themselves while in government and their impact on this country, this cannot be done for a foreign born, unelected EMP in brussels pushing for a law that we don't want. As for the economic impact of leaving the EU, it's just scare-mongering by the elite and crazy-far left who favor staying in the EU for such a reason as "cause i like to go on holidays in eu without visa lol", the UK would be much better off outside the EU, focusing on the european economic zone outside of the EU and the commonwealth which we have set aside for too long. The UK is taking a loss for being in the EU and is holding back the potential for the UK. [editline]21st February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Coffee;49781350]I don't think leaving the EU would solve all (if any) of the country's issues.[/QUOTE] It would solve many problems, if the UK government regains full control and power back at westminister then legisation can finally resolve issues with welfare, border controls, avoid PC bullshit and eu stigma and finally get things done that's right for this nation rather than pandering to papa eu to see if it's okay while handing them billions of pounds each year, this money can be spent on the NHS and other such services.
I'm by no means an expert on UK politics or the EU as a whole, but I have to say I'm leaning towards a UK exit if for no other reason than to teach the EU a lesson. A European economic union is a wonderful idea, a European political union is a terrible idea.
[QUOTE=Dr.Critic;49779136]The whole campaign is a near perfect smoke screen for Cameron, considering how much attention its taken away from Tory cuts, particularly with the NHS. We're going to pay £100 billion for a new Trident update that we can't ever use of solely our own will, even on doomsday without American permission. We're subsiding the American nuclear arsenal, and the same people who have no objection to this are outraged that we spend £12 billion a year on EU membership. They're outraged that the EU is supposedly a threat to our sovereignty, based on some made up crap about not being able to dictate the flow of immigration and having all our laws be written by brussels, yet they've got nothing to say when you point out that we're basically American vassals. When America barks, we yip at its feet. It doesn't matter how much of the membership fees are repaid by trade benefits or political voice, or that we've already put a refugee hard cap at 20,000 and opted out of the refugee response, because this campaign is about who can scream rhetoric the loudest[/QUOTE] As long as we are in the EU the UK government can point fingers at the EU and declare the reason they are sitting on their hands regarding many issues is because of bloated eu beaucracy and attempt to move accountability to those unelected that cannot be held accountable and have no financial or social investment in the UK. After all someone in brussels does not give a shit if the UK has austerity, economic\migration issues or their laws they impose which effect us all. [editline]21st February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Shovel Mech;49781555]I'm by no means an expert on UK politics or the EU as a whole, but I have to say I'm leaning towards a UK exit if for no other reason than to teach the EU a lesson. A European economic union is a wonderful idea, a European political union is a terrible idea.[/QUOTE] Yes, an economic union is a great idea (Besides the unified VATMOSS rubbish) The current establishment of a political union is cultural genocide, trying to make all countries to conform to one set of rules while ignoring social, language and cultural differences and imposing laws such as 'refugee' placement on everyone regardless of what the people of each country actually want while enforcing non-european diversity and imposing austerity throughout europe while the bloated fat-cat EMPs and it's administration cash in on the taxes which fund the corrupt tyrannical EU. I mean, Mr Juncker for example has a salary of £245,629.70 not including expenses. Tell me, why does this bastard who no one in Europe besides the elite appointed\voted for, deserve such a huge salary while we have hundreds of millions of homeless, poverty stricken people dependent on basic state aid throughout the eu. Not to mention the millions of refugees who have been given priority above the native populations of europe due to old outdated laws and eu PC bureaucracy.
[QUOTE=Shovel Mech;49781555]I'm by no means an expert on UK politics or the EU as a whole, but I have to say I'm leaning towards a UK exit if for no other reason than to teach the EU a lesson. A European economic union is a wonderful idea, a European political union is a terrible idea.[/QUOTE] Thank God you are nowhere near of deciding that, then.
[QUOTE=Sword and Paint;49781569]As long as we are in the EU the UK government can point fingers at the EU and declare the reason they are sitting on their hands regarding many issues is because of bloated eu beaucracy and attempt to move accountability to those unelected that cannot be held accountable and have no financial or social investment in the UK. After all someone in brussels does not give a shit if the UK has austerity, economic\migration issues or their laws they impose which effect us all. [editline]21st February 2016[/editline] Yes, an economic union is a great idea (Besides the unified VATMOSS rubbish) The current establishment of a political union is cultural genocide, trying to make all countries to conform to one set of rules while ignoring social, language and cultural differences and imposing laws such as 'refugee' placement on everyone regardless of what the people of each country actually want while enforcing non-european diversity and imposing austerity throughout europe while the bloated fat-cat EMPs and it's administration cash in on the taxes which fund the corrupt tyrannical EU. I mean, Mr Juncker for example has a salary of £245,629.70 not including expenses. Tell me, why does this bastard who no one in Europe besides the elite appointed\voted for, deserve such a huge salary while we have hundreds of millions of homeless, poverty stricken people dependent on basic state aid throughout the eu. Not to mention the millions of refugees who have been given priority above the native populations of europe due to old outdated laws and eu PC bureaucracy.[/QUOTE] Yeah, that is the same feeling that is growing in the Netherlands. More and more people are fed up that the last few governments and the current ones have been mostly staffed by career politicians who cared more about getting a well-paid job at the EU than to actually run the country. Meanwhile, the housing market here is crap, there is a shortage of homes for the younger generation of adults, the job market keeps shrinking as it feels like a once-big Dutch company falls every year, the care for the elderly keeps getting worse and worse, and to top it off, the taxes keep on rising and rising while we see less and less in return. In fact, the EU-loving government has had more interest in creating homes for refugees than for the native population. Did I also mention that the Netherlands is also paying the most per capita to the EU? And yet they still wonder why the anti-EU Nationalistic Party here is steadily rising in the polls. People here are really fed up with the undemocratic farce that the EU has become.
[QUOTE=Sword and Paint;49781536] It would solve many problems, if the UK government regains full control and power back at westminister then legisation can finally resolve issues with welfare, border controls, avoid PC bullshit and eu stigma and finally get things done that's right for this nation rather than pandering to papa eu to see if it's okay while handing them billions of pounds each year, this money can be spent on the NHS and other such services.[/QUOTE] Ah yes let's give full control and power to a tory government that wasn't voted for by a majority of country. Yes very good. Renegotiating our terms and such with the EU would be a much better idea. Also I'm fairly certain that the amount of money spent on this whole EU-vote shitparade could very well easily be sent to the NHS and other services, not that that would actually completely help the NHS or other services, since they are in dire need of restructuring and reform (they need a massive shake up)
Since the EU's creation, in the thatcher era, it has had one tactic, disunity of sovereign states, taking powers away from them slowly while imposing diversity from within the eu and outside the eu, in a way, somewhat like the english did to the scots, you see, if you displace people around europe on the basis that they are there because of EU legislation, regardless of what the EU does, those people will support the EU, further more injecting those of different cultures\religion\languages further creates disunity, destabilizes communities to the extent where they won't 'attack' and hold accountable their own sovereign government for the wrongs they commit let alone the EU. [editline]21st February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Coffee;49781756]Ah yes let's give full control and power to a tory government that wasn't voted for by a majority of country. Yes very good. Renegotiating our terms and such with the EU would be a much better idea. Also I'm fairly certain that the amount of money spent on this whole EU-vote shitparade could very well easily be sent to the NHS and other services, not that that would actually completely help the NHS or other services, since they are in dire need of restructuring and reform (they need a massive shake up)[/QUOTE] At least the tory government can be held accountable for their actions, if you don't like it, you can vote for another party. with the EU you don't have a choice but to vote for some EMP and hope they do what the people want, although right now they are hiding under the EU like former labour did prior. The uk's current electoral system is broken, this much is true which is why the snp and tories prospered in the latest election while UKIP and other parties suffered.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49778130][URL]http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/michael-gove-why-im-backing-leave/[/URL] Gove backing Brexit. I basically agree with everything he says here, but I still wouldn't vote to leave.[/QUOTE] The problem his argument breaks down when you make it larger. Why should you be a park of the UK in the first place, when you can't remove a large segment of UK politicians by your vote. Why should you be part of Scotland, England or whatever, when you can only impact your own local council in it's entirety. That's pretty much the crux of his argument. And sure, for a top politician it's incredibly attractive, it's also purely populist. [quote] which I or any other British politician could alter in any way and none of which made us freer, richer or fairer.[/quote] This is also an outright law. As the EU judicial process is very transparent and UK politicians can actually influence it. Both on a national level trough the UK parliament and government and on the purely European level trough the EP. [quote] We are the world’s fifth largest economy, with the best armed forces of any nation, more Nobel Prizes than any European country and more world-leading universities than any European country. Our economy is more dynamic than the Eurozone, we have the most attractive capital city on the globe, the greatest “soft power” and global influence of any state and a leadership role in NATO and the UN. Are we really too small, too weak and too powerless to make a success of self-rule? On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure. [/quote] Might that perhaps have something to do with the fact the english language is somewhat dominant thanks to the efforts of the empire and the publish or perish mentality ingrained in universities. (and as such an automatic greater exposure and citations to any paper just due to the fact it's in English. Best armed forces of any nation is utterly subjective and a populist statement. (if we go by objective qualities, it's neither the largest, nor most founded, nor with the most spending on RnD) The UK economy is certainly not more Dynamic than that of the Eurozone. As to the reasons so many don't want Brexit is due to the utter insanity it might cause on a huge amount of levels. Also I bloody hate that bureaucrat is seen as a bad word. Bureaucrats are awesome and they're infinitely better than career politicians who have zero understanding of actual Bureaucracy and instead rely on coasting trough based on political leaveway, populism and nothing else. Hell the best government we've had in years was bureaucratic as opposed to political.
[QUOTE=JesterUK;49781303]why is this decision even up to the public your average person doesn't have a clue about what it actually means to be in the EU[/QUOTE] I'd be surprised if you'd find a member of the government who's more switched on regarding the issues. These are career-politicians you're dealing with, remember. The same types who have civil servants that make pre-prepared answers to questions for them. I'm worried about the opinion of Average Joe as well, but some serious educating is in order before it comes to voting.
[QUOTE=CMB Unit 01;49782322]I'd be surprised if you'd find a member of the government who's more switched on regarding the issues. These are career-politicians you're dealing with, remember. The same types who have civil servants that make pre-prepared answers to questions for them. I'm worried about the opinion of Average Joe as well, but some serious educating is in order before it comes to voting.[/QUOTE] Yeah, your right, half the people in these eu threads on fpare making uneducated "lol i will vote not to leave" without having any basis for stating so, but then i suppose when your government uses public funding to push the 'stay in agenda' and most media has bias to stay in, what do you expect.
[QUOTE=Sword and Paint;49782607]Yeah, your right, half the people in these eu threads on fpare making uneducated "lol i will vote not to leave" without having any basis for stating so, but then i suppose when your government uses public funding to push the 'stay in agenda' [B]and most media has bias to stay in, what do you expect.[/B][/QUOTE] You mean the "media" that is not the Daily Mail, the Daily Express, the Sun, the Times, the Telegraph, pretty much the entire rightwing press machine that has spent these past months demonising the EU and migrants every single day? You can find statistics that already say that more than 1 in 10, perhaps even 1 in 5 people in the UK read a rag from the Murdoch Press every week. And that doesn't include the Mail or the Express. [quote] Yeah, your right, half the people in these eu threads on fpare making uneducated "lol i will vote not to leave" without having any basis for stating so[/quote] I'm not voting to leave because, besides the disillusioned, I've seen a lot of idiots and conspiracy nuts on that side of the fence and a lot of business voices and scientists on the "stay" side of the fence. I disagree on a fundamental level with cowards that think refugees are going to destroy this country - and the trojan horse argument is without a doubt one of the dumbest things I've ever heard; the idea that well funded, well connected, well organised terroists are stopped dead at the border by free movement restrictions. In a nutshell : [B]no. [/B] I've seen no strong evidence that proves the EU is detrimental to our economy. I think its downright wrong that people are saying we have no political voice in the EU, just after we've arranged a deal that puts us as an exception one of its main principles of ever closer union. We're an exception to its Euro experiment. We're an exception to its Schengen free movement experiment. We're a limited (20,000 hard cap) opt-out exception from the refugee response. Perhaps it is worth asking why we're in the EU if we're too gutless to commit to anything it does. As for the conspiracy theories involving judges and dictatorship and all that, I can only laugh.
[QUOTE=Sword and Paint;49781810] At least the tory government can be held accountable for their actions, if you don't like it, you can vote for another party. with the EU you don't have a choice but to vote for some EMP and hope they do what the people want, although right now they are hiding under the EU like former labour did prior. The uk's current electoral system is broken, this much is true which is why the snp and tories prospered in the latest election while UKIP and other parties suffered.[/QUOTE] Our political system isn't just broken it's dangerous, our government has no checks and balances and we have no codified constitution. The government can and has on many occasions even set constituency boundaries in their favour. Our democratic system is awful and could very easily lead us to a similar situation as Singapore where they've had one party in power since 1959 despite technically being a democracy. The EU at least holds the government back in some respect. Until the UK fixes its ancient outdated political system I feel we should stay with the EU.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;49785806]Our political system isn't just broken it's dangerous, our government has no checks and balances and we have no codified constitution. The government can and has on many occasions even set constituency boundaries in their favour. Our democratic system is awful and could very easily lead us to a similar situation as Singapore where they've had one party in power since 1959 despite technically being a democracy. The EU at least holds the government back in some respect. Until the UK fixes its ancient outdated political system I feel we should stay with the EU.[/QUOTE] I think a better example of a 'one party democracy' is Japan, because Singapore in many ways is genuinely authoritarian. Japan is not, its just the opposition have historically been so inept that they've only ruled for around 5 years in the whole of the post-war period, with the Liberal Democratic Party taking the rest. The problem is that this isn't really the fault of the government, per se. It's the fault of the opposition for being so incompetent, and this could happen in the UK if Jeremy Corbyn is anything to judge by. You are correct about the uncodified British constitution, but it is highly unlikely anything would be done to reduce democracy in a country with such a strong democratic culture and institutions, but instead for the opposition to turn the country into a one party state (as it is now in Tory England and Nationalist Scotland).
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49778084]Won't be able to vote, my 18th birthday is in August. I'm sort of glad though because although I'd vote to remain, I wouldn't feel good about it.[/QUOTE] I turn 18 on the fucking 24th of June vote in you morons!!1!!11
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49785833]I think a better example of a 'one party democracy' is Japan, because Singapore in many ways is genuinely authoritarian. Japan is not, its just the opposition have historically been so inept that they've only ruled for around 5 years in the whole of the post-war period, with the Liberal Democratic Party taking the rest. The problem is that this isn't really the fault of the government, per se. It's the fault of the opposition for being so incompetent, and this could happen in the UK if Jeremy Corbyn is anything to judge by. You are correct about the uncodified British constitution, but it is highly unlikely anything would be done to reduce democracy in a country with such a strong democratic culture and institutions, but instead for the opposition to turn the country into a one party state (as it is now in Tory England and Nationalist Scotland).[/QUOTE] It's less to do with bad opposition and more to do with a bad voting system, and I'd hardly call Japan an example of democracy done well. The Tories in terms of vote percentages should currently only actually have a minority government, but instead have been awarded a majority by our ancient voting system that hasn't been fit for purpose for over a century now, it was designed back when we had a two part parliament but is still being applied even now with a multiparty system. On top of all this we have an overwhelmingly right wing media, which is another problem for democracy as it means the public is only ever really exposed to one side of the argument, a side that regularly deals in half truths and misinformation.
I'm voting out, guy on reddit has this list of reasons why we'd be better off: [quote] We don't need to be in a political union in order to trade with other countries, nor to be friendly with them and work together. We should leave and negotiate a simple free trade agreement tailored to our needs. We're the fifth biggest economy in the world, the financial capital of the planet, and the EU's biggest export market. If Mexico is capable of negotiating a free trade deal, we certainly are. Leaving the EU would allow us to regain the power to create our own trade deals, rather than having to have the EU do it for us so that it suits 28 different countries with different economies instead of just one. We are one of the top three net contributors to the EU budget, meaning we get less from it than we put in. What's more, the better our economy does, the more we are expected to contribute, despite the EU trying to impose measures that damage our biggest industries such as the Financial Transaction Tax. We're even expected to contribute to things that have nothing to do with us, such as Greece's third bailout. The EU is pushing for the UK and France to give up their UNSC seats so that the EU can have one. It's already established what is effectively a foreign minister, and Juncker the Commission President is pushing for an EU army. This one I accept not everyone will agree with, but the EU's obsession with expansion is creating a more unstable world. If the EU was truly interested in peace, it would have recognised that reaching out to Ukraine and welcoming the idea that it join the EU would provoke Russia into action. The last thing Russia wants is an expansionist pseudo-super power encroaching on its border. Yes I know there are entirely valid arguments for self-determination, but from a peace perspective these titans of the political scene should have recognised the consequences of their actions. The nature of the EU's protectionist customs union means we impose tariffs on goods from other areas of the world, which is morally questionable when you think of the impact it has on poorer countries like those in Africa which could thrive through increased trade. The EU is heading in one direction, and that is toward a federal Europe. The Euro is a disaster, but rather than admit it Europhiles are doing all they can to keep the dream of a federal Europe alive, even if it means ruining the lives of its citizens, or stealing directly from their bank accounts. See: Greece and Cyprus. The UK is never going to join a federal EU, so what's the point in us being a part of it? The EU has a worrying distaste for democracy when it goes against the 'correct' result. The constitution was rejected by referenda in multiple countries, so it was re-branded the Lisbon Treaty (it is essentially the exact same document, I believe a study showed it had 94% of the same content) so that it could circumvent national referenda (See: Valery Giscard d'estaing's comments on the matter), and when Ireland who did have a referendum on it rejected it, they were forced to vote again until they gave the 'correct' answer. We have 8% of the vote in EU decision-making, a share which gets smaller every time the EU admits a new member. When we vote against decisions that negatively impact us, we are outvoted nearly 90% of the time. Constantly demands an increase in its budget, yet hasn't had its spending audited for the last 19 years. There is no such thing as EU money, it is taxpayer money from the nation states that make up its membership, so how does it justify spending hundreds of thousands of tax payer money on blatant propaganda? [/quote]
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