Australian solders left for dead in Afghanistan by Dutch Apache helicopters - Polidicks

Austin's dad was right. Those damn evil Dutch!

If it was america instead of dutch those soldiers would be saved. But dutch next time you need help we will just leave ya there

[QUOTE=s0beit;25562291]So i suppose you have had military service? Or have been in a war for that matter? Nice language by the way, you really know how to look intelligent while giving people a wicked burn. Right, except for RPGs which it was well established earlier those helicopters are not immune from.[/QUOTE] They are immune from them a mile in the air V:v:V

[QUOTE=s0beit;25562291]So i suppose you have had military service? Or have been in a war for that matter? Nice language by the way, you really know how to look intelligent while giving people a wicked burn. Right, except for RPGs which it was well established earlier those helicopters are not immune from.[/QUOTE] Sure why not.. And as for the RPG... A weapon can be the deadliest thing ever imaginable, but if it can't hit its target it's useless.

[QUOTE=s0beit;25562291]So i suppose you have had military service? Or have been in a war for that matter? Right, except for RPGs which it was well established earlier those helicopters are not immune from.[/QUOTE] read thread again. An rpg is not an AA piece, the chances of one of them hitting a fast moving attack helicopter firing at them from 5000m away was slim to none. Yes theres always a risk, but it's war, and the lives of the people down there were in danger, they were cowards.

[QUOTE=Sporkfire;25562330]read thread again. An rpg is not an AA piece, the chances of one of them hitting fast moving attack helicopter firing at them from 5000m away was slim to none. Theres always a risk in a war, and the lives of the people down there were in danger, they were cowards.[/QUOTE] There was literally no chance of them getting hit, I'm sure the rocket doesn't have enough fuel to sustain such a flight [editline]21st October 2010[/editline] And it apparently kills itself 1000 m in

[QUOTE=Tetracycline;25562341]There was literally no chance of them getting hit, I'm sure the rocket doesn't have enough fuel to sustain such a flight [editline]21st October 2010[/editline] And it apparently kills itself 1000 m in[/QUOTE] Self detonates after 10 seconds (about 1100m). Anything else they had eg. AKs and machine guns would of been absurdly useless at that range also.

[QUOTE=Tetracycline;25562341]There was literally no chance of them getting hit, I'm sure the rocket doesn't have enough fuel to sustain such a flight [editline]21st October 2010[/editline] And it apparently kills itself 1000 m in[/QUOTE] a lot of insurgents take off the self-detonators apparently, but I was just trying to appeal him. You're right though, there was no chance.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;25560965]A lot of the guys I know aren't really that well trained or whatever, it's just that there's a fair bit of innate fighting skill. I guess it's comparable to scottish divisions in the UK armed forces that they aren't particularly well trained but are still good fighters. Also these guys were SAS so not like they're going to be anything but tough as nails.[/QUOTE] All Australians are descendants of bloodthirsty criminals. This is why guns and knives are pretty much illegal in Australia. It'd be chaos.

[QUOTE=Sporkfire;25562391]a lot of insurgents take off the self-detonators apparently, but I was just trying to appeal him. You're right though, there was no chance.[/QUOTE] Even if those are taken off, you aren't going to be able to hit anything past 300 meters.

[QUOTE=s0beit;25562291]Right, except for RPGs which it was well established earlier those helicopters are not immune from.[/QUOTE] Ugh. I'll explain this again, since it's not going through for some people like you: The [B]MAXIMUM[/B] range on almost all RPG-7 warheads, is 1000m. Now that's not even an effective range, it's just the max distance it will travel before going inert, or self destructing. The Apache was hovering at 5000m. An Apache can make effective (read: absolutely positively fucking destroy everything there) fire from 2000m without breaking a sweat. Even if they had come to say, a 1000m hold, the chances of the RPG-7 hitting are preposterous.

[QUOTE=TH89;25559658]Tell that to the Somalis. [img_thumb]http://imgur.com/XfsEl.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE] ... A bird can take out a blackhawk. Literally.

Can Apache's withstand an RPG hit?

[QUOTE=Tetracycline;25562448]Can Apache's withstand an RPG hit?[/QUOTE] Yes if the RPG is a light shot. Most of them usually take 2 hits to kill.

Nah, probably not. Nowhere near as heavily armoured as most tanks and RPGs are poison to them. Also I forgot the rocket part of RPG and thought the muzzle velocity was the maximum velocity. It's still going slow as shit, just not so bad.

The M230 is best employed about 1.5-3 km from target, the Hellfire II can be used from 1 Km to 8 Km max via LOAL-HI. The RPG-7 has difficulty even hitting a stationary target at 500m with no wind. A crosswind can make it near impossible to hit anything beyond close range. The RPG almost never is fitted with proximity fuses, and thus must use direct impact to detonate, and lightly grazing the target may not be enough to cause it to fuse. It's irrelevant, these days CAS is basically done with a B-52 or something similar holding 500 pound JDAMs orbiting at 38,000 Ft ASL, flying circles over a large area, dropping JDAMs onto pre-programmed coords, and since F=ma, there will be plenty of speed for the JDAM to go great distances to fly to target, basically being precision artillery rounds that simply use GPS to guide itself. But really, if soldiers are under imminent danger, CAS should do any and everything to save them.

wouldn't there always be the possibility of it bouncing off too? I know rpgs bounce of abrams tanks all the time.

Fucking Dutch.

[img]http://images.salon.com/ent/movies/int/2003/12/15/caine/story.jpg[/img] the dutch.

[QUOTE=Sporkfire;25562513]wouldn't there always be the possibility of it bouncing off too? I know rpgs bounce of abrams tanks all the time.[/QUOTE] Pretty sure that's just the result of a glancing hit or a faulty detonator. An RPG hit would shred an Apache, but they aren't going to be hit by one.

[QUOTE=Sporkfire;25562513]wouldn't there always be the possibility of it bouncing off too? I know rpgs bounce of abrams tanks all the time.[/QUOTE] It needs to have some serious sloping for it to bounce off. Helicopters aren't always front on but if it caught it at anything other than a glance on the side it'd be toast. This is also considering that it is about 50m away and stationary.

It would make more sense to use their RPGs to attack airbases with mortars when the Apaches and whatnot are on the ground, instead of trying to shoot them down with massed RPG fire. Now, ZPUs and 4 .50 cals rigged together in an AA configuration... that is something to worry about.

God dammit, the Dutch just are getting more and more cowardly.

In light of this, looks like they need to up the manpower and weapons fielded by patrols. If stuff like this happens then patrols need to have the capability to at least properly withdraw under ambush without the luxury of on-call CAS.

[QUOTE=TH89;25559339]So, a retired soldier publishes a book, makes an inflammatory press release about how some Dutch helicopter pilots, in all probability, did what they were trained to do, and an Australian rag writes an even more inflammatory article about it. Despite what they'd have you believe Apache helicopters are not designed to withstand RPGs[/QUOTE] You realize the maneuvering properties of an AH-64, right? For them to not fire is ridiculous. It's not like they can't do strafing runs to at least dwindle the enemies numbers. You're telling me you can't drive them back, or at least buy the soldiers time, when you're armed with 30mm M230 chain guns, AGM-114 Hellfire missiles, and Hydra 70 rocket pods?

The French would never do this.

[QUOTE=Tac Error;25562857]In light of this, looks like they need to up the manpower and weapons fielded by patrols. If stuff like this happens then patrols need to have the capability to at least properly withdraw under ambush without the luxury of on-call CAS.[/QUOTE] They usually have a nine-line open for patrols like this anyway. The Dutch were that nine-line, and they refused to fire under the grounds they were afraid. If you're scheduled to be a CAS asset for a patrol where multiple countries are involved, you better be damn sure you help out.

[QUOTE=Tac Error;25562857]In light of this, looks like they need to up the manpower and weapons fielded by patrols. If stuff like this happens then patrols need to have the capability to at least properly withdraw under ambush without the luxury of on-call CAS.[/QUOTE] On call CAS should do their fucking job. Apaches aren't like they are in video games. They can engage from miles. There's no reason for them to abort. The blood is on their hands.

[QUOTE=CharadesV2;25562903]The French would never do this.[/QUOTE] You're right, the French would be too scared to fly the Apaches in the first place.

[QUOTE=OvB;25562947]On call CAS should do their fucking job. Apaches aren't like they are in video games. They can engage from miles. There's no reason for them to abort. The blood is on their hands.[/QUOTE] But they didn't. Things which anyone expects to function 100% can go wrong, the so-called "friction of war". I don't know the exact, minute details of Afghan operations and SOP, but what if NATO/multinational patrols operated with the possibility of no support in mind? If they do then that means they need to implement changes to avoid such a problem turn into more casualties. How did I imply that I believe that "Apaches work like in video games"? You think that I imagine then where they hover absurdly close to the enemy like in that MoH game?