Australian solders left for dead in Afghanistan by Dutch Apache helicopters - Polidicks

[QUOTE=MaverickIB;25563916]A lot of people are referencing the "Black Hawk Down" incident when talking about the dangers of RPG's. It's important to understand that there was far more RPG's in the air than the movie portrays. The pilots of the helicopters that survived said [I]hundreds[/I] of RPG's were being fired up at their choppers at any given time. There's a big difference between a few guys in a force of 150 with RPG's and a town where everyone and their mother has an RPG.[/QUOTE] And don't forget that they didn't have to get within even 2 miles to help at all

A lot of hate against the dutch here. I'm dutch and I know I would've saved them. These cowards make our country look bad. And the horror in Srebrenica didn't help either. Damn

Is there another source? I wouldn't blindly trust one source, I'd at least try and find another side of the story first

From another forum: [quote]Not surprised at all. Same thing happened to brother when he was leading his A-team on patrol and got ambushed by 70 taliban. 70 vs 12, they called in air support, 2 dutch apaches were overhead and would not engage. My brother told them to get the f out and clear the airspace. One of our Medevac choppers heard the situation and came in danger close guns blazing to help them out. The Dutch have no reason to be there, they take up space and have no will to fight period![/quote]

Keep fighting boys..

[QUOTE=kartarn;25563952]Keep fighting boys..[/QUOTE] Unless you're Dutch.

[QUOTE=Ridge;25563976]Unless you're Dutch.[/QUOTE] In that case, yes.

[QUOTE=Ridge;25563951]From another forum:[/QUOTE] I've heard stories of Kiowa Warriors coming in guns blazing within small arms reach risking their life for emergency CAS. These dutch pilots should be ashamed.

[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;25560469]Did you even fucking read the article? They refused to drop [B]below 5000m[/B]. The [B]MAX[/B] range of an RPG-7 is 1000m, and that's assuming the operator could even fire one at such an angle without killing himself. The Apaches can sit in a position of no danger, and still fire on enemy positions, which they refused to do.[/QUOTE] It's well known that the Taliban has surface to air missiles which can have a range of up to much more than 5,000 m. So I don't know if the RPG's were necessarily the problem. [editline]22nd October 2010[/editline] I'm not saying they did the right thing, I don't think anyone knows enough to make an informed judgement here, really.

[QUOTE=TH89;25559339]So, a retired soldier publishes a book, makes an inflammatory press release about how some Dutch helicopter pilots, in all probability, did what they were trained to do, and an Australian rag writes an even more inflammatory article about it. Despite what they'd have you believe Apache helicopters are not designed to withstand RPGs[/QUOTE] The armours built to withstand armour piercing rounds and rpg's so that they can deliver close fire support. The apaches should have engaged. [editline]22nd October 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Tetracycline;25563932]And don't forget that they didn't have to get within even 2 miles to help at all[/QUOTE] Let's also not forget that blackhawks are lightly armoured helicopters that can't take much punishment.

[QUOTE=bravehat;25564557]The armours built to withstand armour piercing rounds and rpg's so that they can deliver close fire support. The apaches should have engaged. [editline]22nd October 2010[/editline] Let's also not forget that blackhawks are lightly armoured helicopters that can't take much punishment.[/QUOTE] Actually all helicopters are quite vulnerable to ground fie, which is why on the hi-intensity battlefield attack helos use vegetation and the terrain as cover. AH-64s were designed when the primary threat consisted of mainly occasional hits of 12.7mm AA machine gun fire from tanks and a few 23mm antiaircraft rounds, not everyone and their dog firing their AKs up in the air (and at parts not protected by the helo's heaviest armor plate) and shaped charge projectiles.

[QUOTE=TH89;25559339]So, a retired soldier publishes a book, makes an inflammatory press release about how some Dutch helicopter pilots, in all probability, did what they were trained to do, and an Australian rag writes an even more inflammatory article about it. Despite what they'd have you believe Apache helicopters are not designed to withstand RPGs[/QUOTE] Ignoring that weapons can get slaved to a TADS system so even if they were afraid of being shot down they could have still shot back from a safe distance.

damn cowards making my country look bad. [IMG]http://filesmelt.com/dl/dutch1.gif[/IMG] and yes that is a crying clog

[QUOTE=DamagePoint;25564051]It's well known that the Taliban has surface to air missiles which can have a range of up to much more than 5,000 m. So I don't know if the RPG's were necessarily the problem. [editline]22nd October 2010[/editline] I'm not saying they did the right thing, I don't think anyone knows enough to make an informed judgement here, really.[/QUOTE]Stingers? It's highly unlikely those are still operable. [QUOTE=Hunt3r.j2;25562498]The M230 is best employed about 1.5-3 km from target, the Hellfire II can be used from 1 Km to 8 Km max via LOAL-HI. The RPG-7 has difficulty even hitting a stationary target at 500m with no wind. A crosswind can make it near impossible to hit anything beyond close range. The RPG almost never is fitted with proximity fuses, and thus must use direct impact to detonate, and lightly grazing the target may not be enough to cause it to fuse. It's irrelevant, these days CAS is basically done with a B-52 or something similar holding 500 pound JDAMs orbiting at 38,000 Ft ASL, flying circles over a large area, dropping JDAMs onto pre-programmed coords, and since F=ma, there will be plenty of speed for the JDAM to go great distances to fly to target, basically being precision artillery rounds that simply use GPS to guide itself. But really, if soldiers are under imminent danger, CAS should do any and everything to save them.[/QUOTE] Pretty much this. Hellfires have a range of 8000m, Hydra 70s something similar depending on type; the Apaches were absolutely capable of engaging the enemy without coming under serious threat, indeed without even dropping below 5000m.

There's no excuse for the apaches not firing on the enemy, they could have easily done it from a safe distance.

Meh, not judging till I hear the other side of the story. It's not like the pilots would've been cowards or anything, there must've been some military rules or commands blocking them from coming into action. [editline]22nd October 2010[/editline] He, the comments on the article are a lot more criticizing than Facepunch: [url]http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/australian-solders-left-for-dead-in-afghanistan-by-dutch-apache-helicopters/story-e6freon6-1225941994956[/url]

[QUOTE=Tetracycline;25562090]You'd be a god among men if you could do that if the rocket moved straight, but according to every game ever they spiral like fuck[/QUOTE] They do. The RPG 7 doesn't have tail fins = no stabilization during the travel. They were designed for ambushing TANKS at CLOSE range. Not lolshotting helicopters. The Dutch shouldn't even be having a fucking Apache if they let soldiers down. They should go to jail.

Actually they do have fins.

Two pilots of a particular country's airforce happen to fuck up for whatever reason. Clearly, this means the entire force or even the entire country is retarded.

[QUOTE=Jake Nukem;25565055]Actually they do have fins.[/QUOTE]Indeed, all warheads used for the RPG-7 have fins. Despite that, hit probability on a tank past 200m is less than half, and practically impossible past 500m.

idk why my country came to help out anyways, big waste of taxpayers money im glad they conserved ammo.

It`s the Dutch fault but not the pilots, the Dutch have poor rules of engagement. Just remember the Dutch batallion in Bosnia, while the 5000 muslims they were meant to protect were genocided they were dancing in the main base drinking beer and the Dutch general was toasting with the Serbian one. They didn`t fire a single shot at the Serbians. ( They were outnumbered and lacked gear tough )

[QUOTE=cheezey;25565618]It`s the Dutch fault but not the pilots, the Dutch have poor rules of engagement. Just remember the Dutch batallion in Bosnia, while the 5000 muslims they were meant to protect were genocided they were dancing in the main base drinking beer and the Dutch general was toasting with the Serbian one. They didn`t fire a single shot at the Serbians. ( They were outnumbered and lacked gear tough )[/QUOTE] Uh, from what I read is that a lot of Dutch soldiers came back depressed from that war because they weren't allowed to do anything while they knew what was going on.

Could have been worse. If those choppers were belgian (actually we do not have any capable aircraft but w/e), they would have fired, oh they would have. Only on their allies because they needed binoculars to see what they were shooting at.

Wow I didn't know Denmark are such pussies no one s going to want to help them now

I like how everyone attacks the country of origin of the pilots, if they were for example German, they'd say "oh those silly germans they lost 2 wars and still can't land a heli" etc. [editline]22nd October 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Canned Beans;25565311]Two pilots of a particular country's airforce happen to fuck up for whatever reason. Clearly, this means the entire force or even the entire country is retarded.[/QUOTE] This.

[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;25560469]Did you even fucking read the article? They refused to drop [B]below 5000m[/B]. The [B]MAX[/B] range of an RPG-7 is 1000m, and that's assuming the operator could even fire one at such an angle without killing himself. The Apaches can sit in a position of no danger, and still fire on enemy positions, which they refused to do.[/QUOTE] I also read that they have uptight ROE. When ROE is broken a little bit, they shoot up civilian vans and you all get pissed. When they're trying too hard to enforce it, people die. This shit is delicate. And if you really think you're getting the whole story here you're an idiot.

[QUOTE=Chilean;25566100]I also read that they have uptight ROE. When ROE is broken a little bit, they shoot up civilian vans and you all get pissed. When they're trying too hard to enforce it, people die. This shit is delicate. And if you really think you're getting the whole story here you're an idiot.[/QUOTE] You're the idiot. Who, in the right fucking mind looks at allies die when they have a chance to help them? you're fucking sick.

I think apaches are badass helicopters.

[QUOTE=TH89;25559658]Tell that to the Somalis. [img_thumb]http://imgur.com/XfsEl.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE] Firstly, the helicopters in Mogadishu were flying at much lower levels. Secondly, the Black Hawk isn't anywhere near as well armoured. Thirdly, spotting individuals armed with RPG's in an urban area is not easy. Given the circumstances, they are lucky to have only lost two helicopters. Two completely different scenarios in different locations and with different equipment. Also consider that the Apache has pulled off some impressive feats before. Remember the time that some guys strapped themselves to an Apache and used it to go get a wounded soldier whilst under fire?