FOX: Majority of Likely Voters Agree 'Socialist' Accurately Describes Obama
557 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;23374854]Not quite "history", anthropology moreso, but anyways go read Guns, Germs, and Steel. It's a classic and it's a great read about the history of civilization over the past 16,000 years or so. Does well to explain imperialism and how civilizations developed.[/QUOTE]
:respek: for mention Guns Germs and Steel.
[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;23374937]I was actually talking to the moron, but if you're interested in it as well that works. And i've heard about that book, but I don't remember much about it. I have a vague recollection of something bad about the author, but i'll check it out anyways.[/QUOTE]
Anything bad said by Howard Zinn would've come from the mouth of some conservative offended by Zinn's truthful, un-whitewashed view of American history. In reality, Zinn was really one of the nicest, most inoffensive (to non-neoconservatives) people to have ever lived.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;23374970]:respek: for mention Guns Germs and Steel.[/QUOTE]
:respek: it's a great book, but I haven't found many like it. Any suggestions on other good anthropology books?
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;23374990]Anything bad said by Howard Zinn would've come from the mouth of some conservative offended by Zinn's truthful, un-whitewashed view of American history. In reality, Zinn was really one of the nicest, most inoffensive (to non-neoconservatives) people to have ever lived.[/QUOTE]
That's the problem with vague recollections, I don't recall the source, the name just seems tainted. But yea, i'll have to check it out, it actually looks really good.
[QUOTE=Billiam;23243113]No.
Some of the mixed economy nations in Europe are extremely successful, take most of Scandinavia.[/QUOTE]
The economy might be successful, but there are certain social problems that go with the Scandinavian economy model.
[editline]01:01PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zeke129;23244087]Look at the Scandinavian countries. Democratic socialism produces the best countries in the world.
[editline]10:53PM[/editline]
Eden/HAL 2012[/QUOTE]
Define "best"...
E.g Finland has an amazing education system, universal health care, etc... However, certain freedoms are lost in terms of economic freedom and the taxes are just ridiculous.
[editline]01:02PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=jA_cOp;23246023][img]http://filesmelt.com/dl/socialism.png[/img]
All but one of those mentioned nations are in Europe. The rest of the nations on that list are much more left-leaning than the USA as well, but I'm reluctant to classify them as socialist.[/QUOTE]
Switzerland is barely socialist. Seriously read about the country. Its a very capitalist and economically free country, funnily enough the largest party is the SVP (BNP equivalent).
The Roma and the plains Indians were incapable of imperialism
[QUOTE=kdabr;23382420]The Roma and the plains Indians were incapable of imperialism[/QUOTE]
Define capable of imperialism, then.
[QUOTE=Earthen;23378261]Define "best"...
E.g Finland has an amazing education system, universal health care, etc... However, certain freedoms are lost in terms of economic freedom and the taxes are just ridiculous.
[/QUOTE]
What freedoms are lost in the Scandinavian countries, France, Germany, and Canada (plus the rest of the first world that isn't the US) that are due to the economic style
[editline]01:20PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=kdabr;23382420]The Roma and the plains Indians were incapable of imperialism[/QUOTE]
The plains Indians certainly were, since everyone around them had the same level of technology.
[QUOTE]Define capable of imperialism, then. [/QUOTE]
Rowing accross the ocean in canoes and whipping white-man ass. For reasons discussed in Guns, Germs, and Steel, if the cards had been dealt favorably to the Indians rather than to the Europeans, they would have come to Europe and massacred the white man.
[QUOTE=kdabr;23387556]Rowing accross the ocean in canoes and whipping white-man ass. For reasons discussed in Guns, Germs, and Steel, if the cards had been dealt favorably to the Indians rather than to the Europeans, they would have come to Europe and massacred the white man.[/QUOTE]
Except Guns, Germs, And Steel doesn't say that, and it's also incredibly stupid to think that's how it would work.
Different societies with different values evolve differently. European civilization rose up imperialistic and settled. Native culture didn't grow like that at all, so it's baseless to think they would be imperialistic.
They didn't finish growing...we killed them before we had a chance to watch them blossom. The Germanic tribes of the early few hundreds AD weren't imperialistic either...till they developed
[QUOTE=kdabr;23388340]They didn't finish growing...we killed them before we had a chance to watch them blossom. The Germanic tribes of the early few 00's AD weren't imperialistic either...till they developed[/QUOTE]
But you can't even begin to assume that if we had let them grow, the only, or even the most likely way for them to advance would be in an imperialistic sense. That's just bullshit. You can't assume that, there's no evidence to that. If anything, there's evidence that would say if they continued to grow, they would have found a natural alternative to communism or something.
Communism isn't evil.
You do realize imperialism doesn't just mean overseas imperialism. Manifest destiny is a form of imperialism as well, and one the indians didn't take part in despite being capable.
[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;23388442]You do realize imperialism doesn't just mean overseas imperialism. Manifest destiny is a form of imperialism as well, and one the indians didn't take part in despite being capable.[/QUOTE]
They mostly banded together or worked with each other, I believe?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;23388465]They mostly banded together or worked with each other, I believe?[/QUOTE]
Pretty much yea, and even if they didn't work together, they had their own separate indian nations and mostly kept to their land, rather than expanding endlessly and wiping out people in their way
EDIT: Not to say they didn't war or fight, they certainly did, but they didn't make war in the pursuit of endless land.
[QUOTE]Communism isn't evil. [/QUOTE]
It definitely isnt...It just doesnt work. Looks great on Paper, but it is oh so obviously flawed due to the corrupt nature of man
[QUOTE=kdabr;23388990]It definitely isnt...It just doesnt work. Looks great on Paper, but it is oh so obviously flawed due to the corrupt nature of man[/QUOTE]
Hey let's respond to three words out of an entire post :downs:
Whats so wrong with that? Those three words were important
And the reason that there was no grand Indian domination of the continent is that they were all very evenly technologically matched...same reason that so few europeans were successful in establishing tremendous intra-european empires
[QUOTE=kdabr;23374097]I havent seen a fact anywhere in this entire thread, except a bunch of "OMG OBAMA = SOCIALIST" and "WE SHOULD GIVE EVERYONE WELFARE SO THAT EVERYONE CAN SUPPORT A FAMILY AND NOBODY WILL WORK"
"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into
prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying
to lift himself up by the handle."
-Winston Churchill
The Greatest Man to Ever Live
He said this before England was an abusive welfare state :)[/QUOTE]
lol, Winston Churchill also supported many social programmes. IE socialised healthcare
[editline]11:19PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=kdabr;23388990]It definitely isnt...It just doesnt work. Looks great on Paper, but it is oh so obviously flawed due to the corrupt nature of man[/QUOTE]
Workers Democracy is the system that prevents that. So you're effectively saying a democracy doesn't work.
[editline]11:24PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=kdabr;23382420]The Roma and the plains Indians were incapable of imperialism[/QUOTE]
plain Indians were pretty fucking capable.
[editline]11:26PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Earthen;23378261]The economy might be successful, but there are certain social problems that go with the Scandinavian economy model.[/quote]
You get social problems, if not more, in America.
[quote]Define "best"...
E.g Finland has an amazing education system, universal health care, etc... However, certain freedoms are lost in terms of economic freedom and the taxes are just ridiculous.[/quote]
Finland also has a fucked up political system. Whilst Scandinavia doesn't.
[quote]Switzerland is barely socialist. Seriously read about the country. Its a very capitalist and economically free country, funnily enough the largest party is the SVP (BNP equivalent).[/QUOTE]
That we can agree with.
[editline]11:27PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=kdabr;23389192]Whats so wrong with that? Those three words were important
And the reason that there was no grand Indian domination of the continent is that they were all very evenly technologically matched...same reason that so few europeans were successful in establishing tremendous intra-european empires[/QUOTE]
Indians had plenty of oppurtunity to imperialise, the Europeans have not ALWAYS been there.
[QUOTE=kdabr;23389192]Whats so wrong with that? Those three words were important
And the reason that there was no grand Indian domination of the continent is that they were all very evenly technologically matched...same reason that so few europeans were successful in establishing tremendous intra-european empires[/QUOTE]
So it's human nature to fuck over people weaker than you, but not to fight people of the same level? And this is excusable because it's human nature, despite the entire point of civilized living and the social contract is to rise above our savage nature and not act like debased assholes? Shouldn't the native savages be the ones wanting to kill and take over others, and not the oh-so advanced and civilized nations that actually did?
[QUOTE=kdabr;23388990]It definitely isnt...It just doesnt work. Looks great on Paper, but it is oh so obviously flawed due to the corrupt nature of man[/QUOTE]
Capitalism also doesn't work. It looks great on paper, but in reality, it doesn't work at all.
Both are the same ideal of impossible bullshit.
[QUOTE=kdabr;23388340]They didn't finish growing...we killed them before we had a chance to watch them blossom. The Germanic tribes of the early few hundreds AD weren't imperialistic either...till they developed[/QUOTE]
What about the south american indians then? They were more technologically advanced.
[QUOTE]So it's human nature to fuck over people weaker than you, but not to fight people of the same level?[/QUOTE]
Are you this stupid? ITS EASIER TO FUCK OVER PEOPLE WHO ARE WEAKER THAN YOU. You can't dominate a civilization equally powerful...you just start wars against them...which the indians did
[QUOTE]Workers Democracy is the system that prevents that. So you're effectively saying a democracy doesn't work.[/QUOTE]
Im glad you read between the lines. I am obviously saying that democracy doesnt work. Great fucking job to ya. Im saying that Communism doesnt work...there really isnt any need to read into it further, splitting hairs over every nuance of the ways in which communism has previously been executed.
[QUOTE]plain Indians were pretty fucking capable.[/QUOTE]
Could you provide some support? I'd like to believe this, but some substantial data would make me less doubtful.
[QUOTE]Indians had plenty of opportunity to imperialize, the Europeans have not ALWAYS been there. [/QUOTE]
They weren't advanced enough to imperialize...all of the indians they would have conquered were technologically very similar
[editline]05:44PM[/editline]
[QUOTE]What about the south american indians then? They were more technologically advanced. [/QUOTE]
They were. And they imperialized weaker south american indian soceities...but they were no match for guns, germs, and steel
[QUOTE=kdabr;23390244]Are you this stupid? ITS EASIER TO FUCK OVER PEOPLE WHO ARE WEAKER THAN YOU. You can't dominate a civilization equally powerful...you just start wars against them...which the indians did
Im glad you read between the lines. I am obviously saying that democracy doesnt work. Great fucking job to ya. Im saying that Communism doesnt work...there really isnt any need to read into it further, splitting hairs over every nuance of the ways in which communism has previously been executed.
Could you provide some support? I'd like to believe this, but some substantial data would make me less doubtful.
They weren't advanced enough to imperialize...all of the indians they would have conquered were technologically very similar[/QUOTE]
:downs:
Never said it wasn't, I said you thought it was human nature to fuck over someone weaker than you, and it's not condemnable because of that.
And at least capitalism gives you some sway over where you stand on the totem pole. In communism, you are automatically living below the poverty line, and there is no way to change it
This isn't to say that Communism isnt theoretically perfect, but it hasnt ever been executed even ADEQUATELY
[QUOTE=kdabr;23390317]And at least capitalism gives you some sway over where you stand on the totem pole. In communism, you are automatically living below the poverty line, and there is no way to change it[/QUOTE]
You realize the poverty line is a certain percentage of the median income, right? It's not fixed between countries.
Excuse me for using a technical term. Lets go ahead and declare this "Kdabr's international poverty line"
If you are forced to work in a labor camp, you are below my poverty line
[QUOTE=kdabr;23390521]Excuse me for using a technical term. Lets go ahead and declare this "Kdabr's international poverty line"
If you are forced to work in a labor camp, you are below my poverty line[/QUOTE]
Because Communism implies gulags, and that wasn't just Stalin/Lenin. And lol, international poverty line? Get off your privileged ass and actually look at the world, what your self considers poverty is considered wealth elsewhere.
[QUOTE=kdabr;23390317]And at least capitalism gives you some sway over where you stand on the totem pole. In communism, you are automatically living below the poverty line, and there is no way to change it
This isn't to say that Communism isnt theoretically perfect, but it hasnt ever been executed even ADEQUATELY[/QUOTE]
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh what?
[editline]12:06AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=kdabr;23390244]Are you this stupid? ITS EASIER TO FUCK OVER PEOPLE WHO ARE WEAKER THAN YOU. You can't dominate a civilization equally powerful...you just start wars against them...which the indians did[/quote]
they went to war a LOT, they didn't take the land over.
[quote]Im glad you read between the lines. I am obviously saying that democracy doesnt work. Great fucking job to ya. Im saying that Communism doesnt work...there really isnt any need to read into it further, splitting hairs over every nuance of the ways in which communism has previously been executed.[/quote]
You don't know what communism is, do you?
[quote]Could you provide some support? I'd like to believe this, but some substantial data would make me less doubtful.[/quote]
In an area with different Indian tribes that war with each other, at least one of them is more powerful then the rest. Use a little logic here
[quote]They weren't advanced enough to imperialize...all of the indians they would have conquered were technologically very similar[/quote]
If you organise and have weapons, you can imperalise other people who are less organised and have weaker weapons
[QUOTE=kdabr;23390317]And at least capitalism gives you some sway over where you stand on the totem pole. In communism, you are automatically living below the poverty line, and there is no way to change it
This isn't to say that Communism isnt theoretically perfect, but it hasnt ever been executed even ADEQUATELY[/QUOTE]
Capitalism really doesn't at all. Not pure capitalism. We haven't seen a pure capitalist society since the 1800's and the industrial revolution, thank god. In a capitalist society, [b]CONTRARY[/b] to the people who believe in capitalism, working hard does not solve your problems. In a truly capitalist society, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;23390981]Capitalism really doesn't at all. Not pure capitalism. We haven't seen a pure capitalist society since the 1800's and the industrial revolution, thank god. In a capitalist society, [b]CONTRARY[/b] to the people who believe in capitalism, working hard does not solve your problems. In a truly capitalist society, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.[/QUOTE]
This. Socialism is good for the people and they can't even realize it.
[editline]02:22AM[/editline]
Well, even partial socialism
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