• It's summer again; Islamic Jihad/Hamas fires rockets at Israel
    74 replies, posted
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;47820900]White Phosphorus is an incendiary weapon, not a chemical weapon.[/QUOTE] It's also used to make very effective smoke screens. Calling WP a chemical weapon is like calling high explosives a chemical weapon because it uses a chemical reaction to explode.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;47820832] My bad, turns out it was CNN. Also, CNN said the attack was on a mosque instead of a shul. [URL="http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/187614"]http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/187614[/URL][/QUOTE] Fair enough. But that seems less like an attempt to whitewash the facts and more like some staffer accidentally typing mosque. And the other one, well, that's not factually wrong at all. Lots of headlines regarding conflicts in a war will simply lump all the casualties together.
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;47820900]White Phosphorus is an incendiary weapon, not a chemical weapon.[/QUOTE] Incorrect. If used offensively its counted as a chemical weapon under international law. [quote=BBC]"If on the other hand the toxic properties of white phosphorus, the caustic properties, are specifically intended to be used as a weapon, that of course is prohibited, because the way the Chemical Weapons Convention is structured or the way it is in fact applied, any chemicals used against humans or animals that cause harm or death through the toxic properties of the chemical are considered chemical weapons."[/quote] [editline]28th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=download;47820909]Calling WP a chemical weapon is like calling high explosives a chemical weapon because it uses a chemical reaction to explode.[/QUOTE] No it isn't. WP kills through a chemical reaction with organic matter. The fumes has a similar effect on people as mustard gas.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47820826]I don't see Israel using them either. Hell if Hamas had chem weapons they wouldn't hesitate in using them[/QUOTE] Lebanon: [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6075408.stm[/url] Gaza 2008: [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7831424.stm[/url] [url]http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2009/0114/p07s01-wome.html[/url] [url]http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/10/israel-stop-unlawful-use-white-phosphorus-gaza[/url] [url]http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2009/07/200973020830886898.html[/url] [url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells[/url] Plus there's significant evidence that they used it in 2014 also. While not itself illegal, the use of WP in civilian areas and as a weapon is illegal under chemical weapons restrictions.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47820912]Fair enough. But that seems less like an attempt to whitewash the facts and more like some staffer accidentally typing mosque. And the other one, well, that's not factually wrong at all. Lots of headlines regarding conflicts in a war will simply lump all the casualties together.[/QUOTE] The thing is that CNN has cropped photos and spread misleading information to make israel seem bad.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;47820914]Incorrect. If used offensively its counted as a chemical weapon under international law.[/QUOTE] It's laughable you're using the BBC as a source for the legality of WP. Even the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Rights admits it's not a chemical weapon because it's primarily designed to kill by burning, not chemical exposure. [url]http://www.weaponslaw.org/weapons/white-phosphorus-munitions[/url] [editline]28th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=NoDachi;47820914] No it isn't. WP kills through a chemical reaction with organic matter. The fumes has a similar effect on people as mustard gas.[/QUOTE] WP kills by burning at thousands of degrees.
[QUOTE=download;47820949]It's laughable you're using the BBC as a source for the legality of WP. Even the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Rights admits it's not a chemical weapon because it's primarily designed to kill by burning, not chemical exposure. [url]http://www.weaponslaw.org/weapons/white-phosphorus-munitions[/url] [editline]28th May 2015[/editline] WP kills by burning at thousands of degrees.[/QUOTE] its laughable that you didn't read your own fucking link because it says "There is also potential for munitions containing WP to be considered chemical weapons, which are prohibited under the 1992 Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC). The Convention defines chemical weapons as: (a) Toxic chemicals and their precursors, except where intended for purposes not prohibited under this Convention, as long as the types and quantities are consistent with such purposes; (b) Munitions and devices, specifically designed to cause death or other harm through the toxic properties of those toxic chemicals specified in subparagraph (a), which would be released as a result of the employment of such munitions and devices; (Art.II(1) in relevant parts) Where ‘Toxic Chemical’ means: Any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals. This includes all such chemicals, regardless of their origin or of their method of production, and regardless of whether they are produced in facilities, in munitions or elsewhere. (Art. II(2)) And ‘Precursor’ means: Any chemical reactant which takes part at any stage in the production by whatever method of a toxic chemical. This includes any key component of a binary or multicomponent chemical system. (Art. II(3))" [editline]28th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=download;47820949] WP kills by burning at thousands of degrees.[/QUOTE] No the high fatality rate is attributed to phosphate ingestion through the wounds that cause liver and kidney failure. Learn more about what you're arguing over and save me a lot of time.
When WP burns it forms phosphoric acid, a substance you drink every time you have a Coke. It's probably unpleasant to breath but unless you're trapped in a building full of it it won't kill you. Trapped in a building full of the fumes from HE would probably kill you to, assuming it hasn't blown you into little meaty pieces.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;47820914]Incorrect. If used offensively its counted as a chemical weapon under international law. [editline]28th May 2015[/editline] No it isn't. WP kills through a chemical reaction with organic matter. The fumes has a similar effect on people as mustard gas.[/QUOTE] No, under the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons definition "any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target" WP is an incendiary, and white phosphorus also fails to meet the CWC definition of a toxic chemical. Also the acute inhalation Minimum Risk level of WP fumes is the same as that of oil fumes, less than 1/30th that of mustard gas.
[QUOTE=download;47820973]When WP burns it forms phosphoric acid, a substance you drink every time you have a Coke. It's probably unpleasant to breath but unless you're trapped in a building full of it it won't kill you.[/QUOTE] it causes Phosphorus pentoxide not phosphorus acid. if you put Phosphorus pentoxide in your drink it will kill you lol [editline]28th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=asteroidrules;47820975]No, under the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons definition "any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target" WP is an incendiary, and white phosphorus also fails to meet the CWC definition of a toxic chemical. Also the acute inhalation Minimum Risk level of WP fumes is the same as that of oil fumes, less than 1/30th that of mustard gas.[/QUOTE] Why isn't WP classed as an incendiary either when you claim that it is.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;47820960]its laughable that you didn't read your own fucking link because it says "There is also potential for munitions containing WP to be considered chemical weapons, which are prohibited under the 1992 Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC). The Convention defines chemical weapons as: (a) Toxic chemicals and their precursors, except where intended for purposes not prohibited under this Convention, as long as the types and quantities are consistent with such purposes; (b) Munitions and devices, specifically designed to cause death or other harm through the toxic properties of those toxic chemicals specified in subparagraph (a), which would be released as a result of the employment of such munitions and devices; (Art.II(1) in relevant parts) Where ‘Toxic Chemical’ means: Any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals. This includes all such chemicals, regardless of their origin or of their method of production, and regardless of whether they are produced in facilities, in munitions or elsewhere. (Art. II(2)) And ‘Precursor’ means: Any chemical reactant which takes part at any stage in the production by whatever method of a toxic chemical. This includes any key component of a binary or multicomponent chemical system. (Art. II(3))" [editline]28th May 2015[/editline] No the high fatality rate is attributed to phosphate ingestion through the wounds that cause liver and kidney failure. Learn more about what you're arguing over and save me a lot of time.[/QUOTE] You didn't read: [quote]In relation to the purposes referred to in Art. II(9)(c), the majority view holds that when WP munitions are used for military purposes such as screening or illuminating, they are not dependent on the use of the toxic properties of WP, and are, hence, not to be considered chemical weapons.[/quote]
[QUOTE=download;47820796] The biggest problem here is once again someone has condemned the Israelis without offering an alternative solution. What the Hell should Israel be doing if not defending themselves from attack?[/QUOTE] Defend and not enact vengeance bombings, retribution attacks, or offensive actions? Hamas is no innocent schoolgirl by any means, but Israel is clearly doing wrong on many fronts and needs to get its shit together.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;47820986]it causes Phosphorus pentoxide not phosphorus acid. if you put Phosphorus pentoxide in your drink it will kill you lol [editline]28th May 2015[/editline] Why isn't WP classed as an incendiary either when you claim that it is.[/QUOTE] Phosphorus pentoxide immediately reacts with water in the air to make phosphoric acid. You literally can't put it in a drink because it would react with water to make phosphoric acid. [editline]28th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];47821006']Defend and not enact vengeance bombings, retribution attacks, or offensive actions? Hamas is no innocent schoolgirl by any means, but Israel is clearly doing wrong on many fronts and needs to get its shit together.[/QUOTE] So, Israel should sit on it's ass while Hamas fires rockets at them?
[QUOTE=download;47821007]Phosphorus pentoxide immediately reacts with water in the air to make phosphoric acid. You literally can't put it in a drink because it would react with water to make phosphoric acid. [editline]28th May 2015[/editline] So, Israel should sit on it's ass while Hamas fires rockets at them?[/QUOTE] Israel should rely less on doing what their enemies are doing on a larger scale and instead consider proportional responses and seeking out practical political solutions to aid the situation instead of constantly shoving their dick down Palestinians', and especially Gazans', throats and then acting surprised like they had no idea that their actions would produce hostile activity.
[QUOTE=download;47821007]Phosphorus pentoxide immediately reacts with water in the air to make phosphoric acid. You literally can't put it in a drink because it would react with water to make phosphoric acid.[/QUOTE] [quote]White phosphorus is the most active allotropic form and is extremely toxic when inhaled, ingested, or absorbed through burned areas (Eldad and Simon 1991) [...] High mortality rates seen following white phosphorus burns can be due to its absorption from the burned surface, which may result in multi-organ failure (mainly liver and kidneys), hyperphosphatemia, hypocalcemia, and electrocardiogram (ECG) abnormalities (ST depression, QT elongation, microvoltage of QRS and bradycardia) (Bowen et al. 1971; Eldad and Simon 1991).[/quote] [url]http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp103-c2.pdf[/url] "not a chemical weapon" [url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-intelligence-classified-white-phosphorus-as-chemical-weapon-516523.html[/url]
[quote]... practical political solutions to aid the situation instead ...[/quote] Do share your wonderful wisdom that can end the long running Gaza/Israel conflicts. I'm sure the UN will be very eager to hear a solution.
[QUOTE=download;47821038]Do share your wonderful wisdom that can end the long running Gaza/Israel conflicts. I'm sure the UN will be very eager to hear a solution.[/QUOTE] Well seeking an internationally supported solution- two state likely- would be a step forward, recognizing the legitimacy and existence of both the Palestinian Authority and/or the Hamas government (as a government over Palestine or as a state- take your pick) would be a step forward, ending the inhumane embargo on Gaza would be a step forward, no longer selectively presenting economic sanctions that neutered moderate political factions like the PA would be a step forward, recognizing statehood for Palestine would be a step forward, recognizing the disproportionate economic and political situation of Palestinians within Israel and the migratory Palestinian workforce would be a step forward, allowing access to ancestral homes for Palestinian diaspora and ancestors would be a step forward, eliminating the West Bank wall so it doesn't establish a solid border opening border talks back up would be a step forward, ending the ridiculous zones system that places the West Bank under Israeli control outside of Palestinian urban centers would be a step forward, ending the increase in size of Israeli settlements and actively punishing rogue settlers would be a step forward.... and I mean, that's just what they could do today. They already fucked over the Palestinians in a million other ways in the past. Many of the above are already suggested or supported by the UN, just so ya know
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];47821100']Well seeking an internationally supported solution- two state likely- would be a step forward, recognizing the legitimacy and existence of both the Palestinian Authority and/or the Hamas government (as a government over Palestine or as a state- take your pick) would be a step forward, ending the inhumane embargo on Gaza would be a step forward, no longer selectively presenting economic sanctions that neutered moderate political factions like the PA would be a step forward, recognizing statehood for Palestine would be a step forward, recognizing the disproportionate economic and political situation of Palestinians within Israel and the migratory Palestinian workforce would be a step forward, allowing access to ancestral homes for Palestinian diaspora and ancestors would be a step forward, eliminating the West Bank wall so it doesn't establish a solid border opening border talks back up would be a step forward, ending the ridiculous zones system that places the West Bank under Israeli control outside of Palestinian urban centers would be a step forward, ending the increase in size of Israeli settlements and actively punishing rogue settlers would be a step forward.... and I mean, that's just what they could do today. They already fucked over the Palestinians in a million other ways in the past. Many of the above are already suggested or supported by the UN, just so ya know[/QUOTE] And how does any of this stop a state who has regularly stated that every Jew should be wiped out from shooting rockets at Israel? You're delusional if you think a two-state solution is possible or that any of these things will appease them. The Palestinians are in the situation they are in because they keep poking Israel and haven't learnt not too.
[QUOTE=download;47821169]And how does any of this stop a state who has regularly stated that every Jew should be wiped out from shooting rockets at Israel? You're delusional if you think a two-state solution is possible or that any of these things will appease them. The Palestinians are in the situation they are in because they keep poking Israel and haven't learnt not too.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry? The PA is not an issue for Israel at this point and hasn't been for a while. The PA gave into Israeli demands several times and got fucked for it. Hamas was a direct result of the ineffectiveness of PA's moderate and political actions- Hamas's 2006 political victory was due completely to the fact that Israel had neutered the PA. When Jewish settlers purchased absentee-owned land and pushed off Palestinian workers and families in the 1800s, was that the Palestinians "poking" the Jews? When the Jews encroached on Palestinian neighborhoods in the Mandate, was that the Palestinians "poking" the Jews? When Jews established settlements in Arab lands and then defended them through militias, was that the Palestinians "poking" the Jews? When Jewish settlers illegally surged into Arab cities, was that the Palestinians "poking" the Jews? When the Lehi and Irgun terrorized Arabs, bombing shops and civilians and robbing Arab banks, was that the Palestinians "poking" the Jews? When the Jews appealed successfully to the UN and the UK to be granted a partition of the land that they encroached on from Arab government, was that the Palestinians "poking" the Jews? Was that the Palestinians "poking" the Jews when they fought back against the partition granting the Jews all of the arable land, many Arab villages, and 60% of the land for the less than 30% Jewish population? When the Irgun and Lehi and Jewish militias formed together to make the IDF, massacred villages, established a state ignoring international agreements, and forcing a mass exodus of Palestinians out of their land, was that the Palestinians "poking" the Jews? When Israel occupied Palestinian villages, gave Palestinian homes to Israelis, established a discriminatory preference for Jewish labor, confiscated Palestinian land, and started building settlements in Palestinian land, was that the Palestinians "poking" the Israelis? When Israel refused to negotiate with Palestinian governments, politicians, and community leaders, was that the Palestinians "poking" the Israelis? When Israel refuses to recognize Palestinian claims to the land or Palestinian government, was that the Palestinians "poking" the Israelis? When Israel attempted to assassinate Palestinian political leaders, and successfully did many of them, was that the Palestinians "poking" the Israelis? When Israel forced Palestinians, the Fatah, and the PA into subordination after decades of conflict, and then still refused to work with them except under international pressure, was that the Palestinians "poking" the Israelis? When the Israelis recognized Palestinian communities only after occupying most of the land in the West Bank, establishing checkpoints, controlling the major highways preventing freedom of movement, and building a wall inside of the recognized West Bank territory, effectively establishing a hard border, was that the Palestinians "poking" the Israelis? Iunno man, it seems kinda strange that someone can defend the clear power here that has driven the peoples its occupied to violence. Sure as hell terrorism committed by Hamas is bullshit, but it got to this point after layers of shit being shoveled on Palestinians and Israel shitting on the PA and Fatah even well after those organizations were seeking to mend relations and begin working on a process.
Spell it out with me I S R A E L . A P O L O G I S T S
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];47820442']Except that Israel does equally as much provocation and has a history of asymmetrical retribution.[/QUOTE] "asymmetrical retribution" lmfao. Heres how the real world works bud; if somebody attacks you, you put their ass down so they can't ever attack you again. "eye for an eye" doesn't work in war hun.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;47821473]"asymmetrical retribution" lmfao. Heres how the real world works bud; if somebody attacks you, you put their ass down so they can't ever attack you again. "eye for an eye" doesn't work in war hun.[/QUOTE] I think he's wrong but you have no idea what modern politics is like. [editline]27th May 2015[/editline] Like seriously, is your idea of how countries work based off Lethal Weapon or some shit?
[QUOTE=X12321;47820268][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Rnl5GTZ.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] where's the ben garrison signature
Israel isnt the why palestineans are fucked, they kept trying to overthrow all the other nearby countries like jordan and egypt through force and because of that they locked themselves in gaza
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;47821473]"asymmetrical retribution" lmfao. Heres how the real world works bud; if somebody attacks you, you put their ass down so they can't ever attack you again. "eye for an eye" doesn't work in war hun.[/QUOTE] It's that bullshit that put Hamas in power, bud. You know kid, if Israel had recognized and worked with the PA in a reasonable time scale, then they wouldn't be dealing with rockets. But instead they terrorized for years and refused to work with the PA/Fatah for decades after their half-century march of occupation. I swear to god, it's like Israel apologists can find any reason to jerk off over the thousands of deaths of innocents that Israel causes. It's perfectly fine for Israel to kill a thousand people because they live in territory they're occupying or starving, but you can't possibly fathom how an entire people displaced from their territory, separated from their homes, starved by an alien power, constantly overseeing every action, and seemingly randomly killing the people who are acting as your voice, the people you've elected to represent you or aid you, can turn towards extremism when every other option has been exhausted. Netanyahu could kill a Palestinian child in front of the entire UN GA and you people would probably give him a pat on the back- "Well SHUCKS that's what you get when ya be firin them rockets at civilians in the sanctified land of Israel, the pure land of the Jews, rightfully entitled to them." like for real, how many innocents are okay for Israel to kill before you become critical? Because at this point the number is surely greater than the total killed by Palestinians since the foundation of Israel. Like what's your ideal ratio? 3 Palestinians to every Israeli? 4? Is constantly fucking an entire people not enough? Would a genocide be enough for you? Serious question, at what point does Israel have to be responsible for recklessness? At one point are they deserving of criticism for killing so many non-combatants?
When Israel starts deliberately targeting innocent civilians rather than innocent civilians killed as collateral damage. Collateral damage, I should point out, that Israel has constantly tried to reduce. I'm not going to respond to the rest of what you said because it's a strawman. [editline]28th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=niiiiiiiiok;47821430]Spell it out with me I S R A E L . A P O L O G I S T S[/QUOTE] That, word for word, is like something I would read on /pol/
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;47821473]"asymmetrical retribution" lmfao. Heres how the real world works bud; if somebody attacks you, you put their ass down so they can't ever attack you again. "eye for an eye" doesn't work in war hun.[/QUOTE] How much sass can you fit in one post- I'm surprised this one didn't end with "don't take it personal kid" Also, and more importantly, it's logic like yours that decided that America didn't need to just neutralize Al Queda and the Taliban which was protecting it, but rather that it needed to launch a Global War On Terror to end terrorism everywhere forever. Take your bumper sticker foreign policy back to 2002, please.
further proof that peace is entirely impossible until Palestine is stripped of Hamas/PA-- not even the slightest efforts into maintaining a peaceful relationship. [QUOTE=download;47821827]That, word for word, is like something I would read on /pol/[/QUOTE]to be fair, the anti-israel circlejerks on facepunch can be fairly strong at times still waiting for the heart attack lamar'll have when he finds this thread
[QUOTE=NoDachi;47820914]Incorrect. If used offensively its counted as a chemical weapon under international law. [editline]28th May 2015[/editline] No it isn't. WP kills through a chemical reaction with organic matter. The fumes has a similar effect on people as mustard gas.[/QUOTE] It is a chemical weapon when it's intended effects is the[B] toxicity.[/B] Read what you quoted again. It is not a chemical weapon when it's intended effects are a smoke screen, incendiary effects, or as illumination.
[QUOTE=ColdAsRice;47821709]Israel isnt the why palestineans are fucked, they kept trying to overthrow all the other nearby countries like jordan and egypt through force and because of that they locked themselves in gaza[/QUOTE] It's amazing how quickly people forgot about Black September.
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