• It's summer again; Islamic Jihad/Hamas fires rockets at Israel
    74 replies, posted
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];47820564']Israel doesn't have to bomb entire apartment blocks, invade an separate state, recklessly shoot and shoot at civilians, use banned chemical weapons, and randomly make sure their enemies are paying attention by occasionally plunging a bomb into a family home to maybe kill a guy they're pretty sure is a terrorist. Greater technological advantage should make Israel more precise, instead Israel uses brute strength and borderline terror tactics to maintain its will on people that are politically and militarily subordinate to it. To say that Hamas does more damage than Israel, or is more capable than Israel, is incorrect. Hamas is an organization with a shitty goal and goes about its methods in a despicable way, but Israel should not be responding in other shitty ways for other despicable means. Hamas fires rockets, mortars, and Qassams- more or less light artillery. Israel responds with far larger bombs, bunker busters, the occasional white phosphorous, and ground invasions. Hezbollah were more of a threat with their Katyushas than Hamas is to Israel. Israel enacts disproportionate responses, there is no excuse for the superior and more technologically advanced power to kill as many as they do. 2014 invasion: Is: 66 soldiers, 6 civilians killed Ga: between 2157-2310 killed, 50-70% civilian 2008 war: Is: 13 soldiers (4 from friendly fire), 3 civilians killed Ga: between 1166-1417 killed, of them between 491 and 759 civilians 2008 Operation Hot Winter: Is: 3 killed, 1 civilian Ga: 112 killed, 52 were civilians 2006 Operation Autumn Clouds: Is: 1 killed, 3 civilians wounded Ga: 38 militants, 15 civilians killed, 200 wounded 2006 Operation Summer Rain: Is: 7 killed (5 soldiers, 2 civilians) Ha: 402 killed (277 militants, 117 civilians, 6 police, 2 guards)[/QUOTE] Sorry, but that's a load of shit here. Numbers are inflated, yes. But even leaving it aside, it's a huge fallacy to assume that the ratio would ever be 1:1. Israel cares first about its soldiers. Survival of personell is top priority. Everyone is taught to apply first aid. Soldiers move under cover of APCs and other machines. To be fair Israel has one of the best army when it comes to survival of personell. Hamas doesnt give a shit. Little to no training, not enough supplies, crude weaponry and of course the wish to die for Allah make for hugemilitant death rates. The awesome habits of firing from ambulances, schools, hospitals and then filming Israel give return fire ("They are attacking a hospital for no reason!") make for great civillIan casualties, no surprise. The death rates are mostly Hamas' problem.
[QUOTE=deadoon;47822325]It is a chemical weapon when it's intended effects is the[B] toxicity.[/B] Read what you quoted again. It is not a chemical weapon when it's intended effects are a smoke screen, incendiary effects, or as illumination.[/QUOTE] Didn't I already say that? The context in which its used depends if its classified as a chemical weapon. When Saddam dropped tons of WP onto Kurdish towns, he wasn't doing it for illumination. Neither was Israel when they used it to shell schools. The fact that Saddam used WP as part of his chemical weapon program should be telling enough.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;47820907]I don't think white phosphorus is technically a chemical weapon. Jpost here so it's biased but: [URL="http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Britains-iObserveri-issues-correction-Israel-did-not-use-chemical-weapons-In-Gaza-325529"]http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Britains-iObserveri-issues-correction-Israel-did-not-use-chemical-weapons-In-Gaza-325529[/URL][/QUOTE] WP is only allowed to be used for smoke not as an anti-personel device, however in the fog of war it has been employed as such because the stuff burns right on through everything but solid rock
[QUOTE=Sableye;47823826]WP is only allowed to be used for smoke not as an anti-personel device, however in the fog of war it has been employed as such because the stuff burns right on through everything but solid rock[/QUOTE] Mind producing a source for that claim?
Also I'm pretty sure its ban as such falls under incindiery weapons, its smoke in high enough concentrations could be used as a chemical weapon but nobody ever employs enough of the stuff as such [editline]28th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=download;47823828]Mind producing a source for that claim?[/QUOTE] Pretty well documented on any ww1 and post war sites, just googling white phosphorus for example, the first 3 links show its legality, historical use, and modern use.
I found this, from 2013: [URL="http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22310544"]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22310544[/URL] [QUOTE]The Israeli military says it is to stop using artillery shells with white phosphorus to create smokescreens on the battlefield. It says shells will be replaced with types based completely on gas, which will create the same effect. Rights groups condemned Israel's use of white phosphorus during the Gaza conflict because of its severely harmful effects on civilians. International law restricts the use of white phosphorus during war. The Israeli military said the existing shells contained "minimal amounts" of white phosphorus, and would be "removed from active duty soon". Three years ago, Israel promised to draw up new rules on the use of shells containing white phosphorus, in the wake of the Gaza war.[/QUOTE]
I mean, in other news; birds fly, rocks fall, and the Cubs still haven't won the world series...
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;47821605]where's the ben garrison signature[/QUOTE] It was erased; along with the American citizens strapped to the Israeli buildings, and with the caption reading -- "Good goys die for their Merchant." Anyways, I just hope that the violence doesn't escalate to the level that it did last summer. [editline]29th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Nikota;47822630]It's amazing how quickly people forgot about Black September.[/QUOTE] In a way, he [Arafat] is responsible, albeit indirectly, for the conception of Hamas (the Muslim Brotherhood's extension). While Arafat was gleefully trotting the globe -- embezzling copious aid dollars to his own (well, in truth, Arafat was Egyptian) people, trying to build a mini-Palestine in the heart of Jordan, crashing Jordanian planes, riling up the Southern Lebanese insurgents (this was done in the interests of the Soviets, which unsuccessfully tried to foster an insurrection by said militants in 1958-- even leading the USA to employ the Eisenhower Doctrine and aiding the Lebanese parliament), and giving an unabashed 'fuck you!' to the Oslo Accords (conceding nearly the entirety of Palestinian demands) by both rejecting and contributing nothing to the talks -- Hamas, at the time at least, was providing social services and fanciful speeches to the masses. His negligence neutered Fatah's power. A pathetic man. [url]https://history.state.gov/milestones/1993-2000/oslo[/url] [url]http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/blue_bat.htm[/url] [url]http://www.nytimes.com/1983/07/02/world/arafat-vs-assad-news-analysis.html[/url]
[QUOTE=Showgun;47820206]watch as Israel drops a nuke on an orphanage or something and call it retribution, i wish Israel would just disappear[/QUOTE] Dismantling Israel will cause more harm than good in the long run And it's not like Hamas is blameless in this case.
The way I see it, yes, although Israel is using larger bombs, etc. Hamas [or whoever was responsible at the time], pulled the trigger first. I mean if some smaller guy gets angry and punches you, are you just going to punch him back with equivalent strength, or are you going to use your last 4 years of weights training to make sure he doesn't do it again? While it is true that Hamas sadly isn't getting the picture of the power difference, I do see where Israel is coming from by retaliating with much larger weaponry [when they don't use other methods]
[QUOTE=CountNoobula;47860957]The way I see it, yes, although Israel is using larger bombs, etc. Hamas [or whoever was responsible at the time], pulled the trigger first. I mean if some smaller guy gets angry and punches you, are you just going to punch him back with equivalent strength, or are you going to use your last 4 years of weights training to make sure he doesn't do it again? While it is true that Hamas sadly isn't getting the picture of the power difference, I do see where Israel is coming from by retaliating with much larger weaponry [when they don't use other methods][/QUOTE] If you want to take the "he did it first" argument to it's logical conclusion, you're factoring in at least 60 years and, depending on perspective, a few thousand years of conflict and prejudice. Hamas shouldn't fire rockets but Israel holds a significant portion of the blame for why Palestinians want to fire rockets at Gaza. Gee, who would have thought that if you deny a people access to basic supplies, safety or effective political representation that it would result in extremism. Airstrikes will stop the rocket fire for a few months but it'll come back worse. Killing people's family and neighbours doesn't pacify them in the long run. I'm not saying I have a perfect solution, but proper political engagement with the Palestinians, allowing access to supplies to rebuild, even if you have it be under strict control of Israelis to avoid it getting into Hamas's hands, and providing a method other than violence for them to enact political change is a far better idea than killing thousands of civilians.
[QUOTE=download;47820796]The biggest problem here is once again someone has condemned the Israelis without offering an alternative solution. What the Hell should Israel be doing if not defending themselves from attack?[/QUOTE] research indicates that military intervention is generally ineffective at quelling terrorist activity and that a lack of political representation is a primary risk factor for terrorism. if israel demonstrates a willingness to let down its massive walls of paranoia and provides a suitable alternative to hamas, an organization that provides social welfare and representation as well as rocket attacks, then support for groups like hamas will decrease in the future. there's no need to assume that rocket attacks and extremism are always going to be the reality for israel-palestinian relations, and once that assumption is dispelled, you realize that retaliation isn't the only reasonable option. [QUOTE=download;47820973]When WP burns it forms phosphoric acid, a substance you drink every time you have a Coke. It's probably unpleasant to breath but unless you're trapped in a building full of it it won't kill you. Trapped in a building full of the fumes from HE would probably kill you to, assuming it hasn't blown you into little meaty pieces.[/QUOTE] stating the alternative uses of a chemical is pointless. if i take a small amount of dilute hydrochloric acid and drop it on my finger, i probably won't get burned, at least not enough for me to notice. that doesn't mean that i should take highly-concentrated hydrochloric acid and throw it in my eyes expecting to be okay. the chemical itself is irrelevant; what is relevant is the concentration, and the concentration of phosphoric acid is obviously magnitudes greater in a weapon with phosphorous as the active ingredient than as an additive in a soda drink.
[QUOTE=joes33431;47863173]research indicates that military intervention is generally ineffective at quelling terrorist activity and that a lack of political representation is a primary risk factor for terrorism. if israel demonstrates a willingness to let down its massive walls of paranoia and provides a suitable alternative to hamas, an organization that provides social welfare and representation as well as rocket attacks, then support for groups like hamas will decrease in the future. [/QUOTE] ya israel and palistine need to stop this whole "tell them i said this" thing and actually work together, but of course neither side has a need to do so, as its not conviniant for israel to do so, and palistine is still run by hamas
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