[QUOTE=Isuzu;34571128]What gives you any right to care? Why do you care about the taliban for example, but you do not care about chinas human rights abuse concerning tibetans? Why isn't the US engaged in supporting the tibetans who burn themselves in the streets because they see no other way to make their voices heard? Why isn't the US engaged in sustaining peace throughout africa?
Haha oh yeah there's a big need for security in afghanistan, but I'll let you figure that one out yourself. Wait I'll give you a tip regarding your posts in this thread you might need it: Afghanistan and Iraq are more unsafe than they have ever been. Not only unsafe from Taliban agression but also from random agression by US military. Both countries are left torn apart in the dust and in the end, once the profit margin gets too slim, the US pulls out and the taliban come back. Nothing has changed instead of unnecessary casualties on all sides and a couple trillion dollars missing from your treasury in the hands of oil tycoons and the military industrial complex.
Mission fucking accomplished, yeehaw.[/QUOTE]
You're not getting the point. I don't make any presumptions as to the motives of the US government. However, it turns out (surprise!) that this thread is about a marine, not the US government. Yes, afghanistan and iraq have gotten significantly more dangerous thanks to the US government. That's not this soldier's fault, he didn't start the war. If he was out there fighting the Taliban, the fact of the matter is that he's making it safer, as compared to if he stayed in the states. as a matter of fact, a [URL="http://www.thefastertimes.com/politics/2012/01/31/the-tragedy-and-grace-of-sgt-william-stacey/"]journalist[/URL] had this to say: "He saved lives. He helped turn Now Zad from a scarred hell to a place where hundreds of children can walk to school every day. He brought sanity and compassion to a place sorely in need of both."
[editline]6th February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;34571143]and it doesn't matter what he intended to do, he's a soldier, he does what he's told not what he intends. and guess what, what he's told to do makes the people of afghanistan despise him, not just him but everything he stands for, and thats why all he did was make the situation worse. no matter how many schools you build for orphans, those orphans will grow up knowing it was because of the USA that their daddies or their mommies died and they will hate them for it and that is why these terrorist cells get STRONGER not weaker with US occupation.[/QUOTE]
You make the presumption that individual soldiers get orders that make them do bad things. At nearly every level except the very top, the us military has generally conducted themselves as if they genuinely wanted to win this war and take care of afghanistan. COIN doctrine as in the field manual emphasizes getting a good understanding of the local populace, establishing a rapport, and building support. It's not all bombs and murder. If you read the articles about this marine, I think you'll find that he genuinely hoped to do good in afghanistan.
[QUOTE=iFail;34571216]You're not getting the point. I don't make any presumptions as to the motives of the US government. However, it turns out (surprise!) that this thread is about a marine, not the US government.[/QUOTE]
So? Sucks that he died but if he truly wanted to help there were better options to go about it. The first and most logical being 'not joining the agressing force'.
[QUOTE=iFail;34571216]Yes, afghanistan and iraq have gotten significantly more dangerous thanks to the US government. That's not this soldier's fault, he didn't start the war. If he was out there fighting the Taliban, the fact of the matter is that he's making it safer, as compared to if he stayed in the states. as a matter of fact, a [URL="http://www.thefastertimes.com/politics/2012/01/31/the-tragedy-and-grace-of-sgt-william-stacey/"]journalist[/URL] had this to say: "He saved lives. He helped turn Now Zad from a scarred hell to a place where hundreds of children can walk to school every day. He brought sanity and compassion to a place sorely in need of both."[/QUOTE]
I like how they neglect to mention that basically, school children were able to walk about before and the situation deteoriated since US intervention. Of course he "saves" school children if they fight off taliban attacks against their base but those taliban attacks wouldn't have happened in the first place if it wasnt for US intervention. Sure do love me some propaganda... Ooh but what is it that I am saying??? Dear me, My Country would never ever do that!! My Countries officials and media would never ever warp the truth. No no.
[QUOTE=Isuzu;34571319]I like how they neglect to mention that basically, school children were able to walk about before and the situation deteoriated since US intervention. Of course he "saves" school children if they fight off taliban attacks against their base but those taliban attacks wouldn't have happened in the first place if it wasnt for US intervention. Sure do love me some propaganda... Ooh but what is it that I am saying??? Dear me, My Country would never ever do that!! My Countries officials and media would never ever warp the truth. No no.[/QUOTE]
are you serious. of course the US government fucked up, i already acknowledged that. the point is he was out there salvaging the situation that his government screwed up.
at this point everything you say seems quite like an attempt to redirect the topic towards "us government is shit" instead of actually admitting that this man did good.
also that news source is not very mainstream as far as media goes, it's not the kind of place you expect god bless 'murrica propaganda.
[QUOTE=iFail;34571329]are you serious. of course the US government fucked up, i already acknowledged that. the point is he was out there salvaging the situation that his government screwed up.
at this point everything you say seems quite like an attempt to redirect the topic towards "us government is shit" instead of actually admitting that this man did good.
also that news source is not very mainstream as far as media goes, it's not the kind of place you expect god bless 'murrica propaganda.[/QUOTE]
He would have done better raising awareness about the wars instead of getting directly involved. And to be honest, your current government does suck, the topics are very related so discussions like this are bound to break out.
raising awareness about the war isn't really much of a solution. There's little that can be done. What's really needed is for people to make afghanistan safer than it is now, and there's really only one way to do that.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;34570875]uhhhh when someone chooses to work for that shitty company then surely they should be willing to accept any negative flak they get for working for said company???? and we're not talking about a company that has questionable business practice which irritates consumers, we're talking about a job where basically you are paid to kill people. you can say that the army does other shit but that doesn't change that at the core of the military it's being paid to kill and in a perfect world it would not exist.[/QUOTE]
What if they work for it because they need the job? And in the case of the military, this isn't a perfect world, so there's no point wasting energy over what things could be and accept the fact that it exists. (And before you claim that I'm being nihilistic and saying that we should deal with bad things instead of trying to fix them, I'm not.) I'm saying a military is going to exist. Even if you disagree with that, hating everyone in it is sad. You don't know these people's stories. You don't know why they joined. Almost no one joins because they actually want to kill people. The motivation is to either have a living or to serve their country for the most part.
Basically, stop oversimplifying things. You're using this to excuse your hatred.
(And if you don't hate the military, you're acting like it's okay for others to do so for this reason.)
[QUOTE=Isuzu;34570998]
I share no respect for soldiers. There is no glory in
war or killing other human beings. Don't give it any.[/QUOTE] Wow...I wasn't even gonna add to this thread until I saw this post. FUCK YOU from a 327th Inf Rgt, 101st Airborne Infantryman. I never really came accross too many pacifist, pussy ass liberals like this till I came to FP.
Edit: Bastogne the bulldog says fuck you too.
[QUOTE=Isuzu;34570998]I share no respect for soldiers. There is no glory in war or killing other human beings. Don't give it any.[/QUOTE]
Fight the power man fight the power!!!
other than maybe defending your home from people who don't give a fuck and want to kill everyone in your homeland? Maybe? Ever think of that?
[QUOTE=J!NX;34574630]Fight the power man fight the power!!!
other than maybe defending your home from people who don't give a fuck and want to kill everyone in your homeland? Maybe? Ever think of that?[/QUOTE]
How exactly are they defending "home" when they are half the globe away.
Also I doubt the "people who don't a give a fuck" realistically plan to kill everyone in US.
[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;34574250]Wow...I wasn't even gonna add to this thread until I saw this post. FUCK YOU from a 327th Inf Rgt, 101st Airborne Infantryman. I never really came accross too many pacifist, pussy ass liberals like this till I came to FP.
Edit: Bastogne the bulldog says fuck you too.[/QUOTE]
Go die in a war. Your zeal does not convince me.
Edit: I respect our military and I will respect any military but you seem to be bordering fanaticism.
[QUOTE=iFail;34571013]this thread happens to be about a marine who clearly did have an altruistic interest.[/QUOTE]
i think it's fair to call into question someone's altruism when they join a force that specializes in occupation and shooting things.
[quote]uh ok i guess we shouldn't protect civilians from fundamentalist islamic militants notorious for their massacres, human rights abuses, and terrorist methodology. You're thinking about the wrong war lol[/quote]
the US enabled these fundamentalist islamic militants and the US continues to justify their existence every day they continue their imperialist wars.
My heart goes out to this fallen marine and his family and friends, that was a very touching letter.
[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;34555389]Nice first post.[/QUOTE]
Obviously it's some cunt's alt who probably still has a main account to lurk the forums, what a pussy.
[QUOTE=yosupwatdis;34555373]worth it [I]no[/I] it wasn't worth it you are fucking dead you [B]stupid[/B] [B]asshole[/B] hes probably regretting those words in [I][B]hell[/B][/I]
dude i dont care what yall [B][U]niggas[/U][/B] think yall just likin da fuckin marine cause hes a fuckin marine yeah so ill join along [B]god bless murrica fallen marine respek[/B] [B]heil[/B][/QUOTE]
ffs stop reporting this post, do you want me to double permaban him? quit it.
[quote]do you want me to double permaban him?[/quote]
Please do.
Ban him from life.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34576402]i think it's fair to call into question someone's altruism when they join a force that specializes in occupation and shooting things.[/QUOTE]
You're implying every person who joins the military is a monster or something. I don't know why this happens.
[QUOTE=x_xPwntx_x;34580081]You're implying every person who joins the military is a monster or something. I don't know why this happens.[/QUOTE]
no i'm implying that being a member of an imperialistic military force isn't being altruistic in any sense.
shooting things at people isn't helping, regardless of what political goal you believe you are achieving.
The military specializes in fighting wars. It was *told* to go and do what they were trained to do. Do you think he decided to head on over because pillaging and murder are appealing? Of course not. No normal human being does. The military is *full* of normal human beings.
But wait, you think this war is horrible? That we don't need to be there? The Taliban is just an excuse to have our way with manhandling the Middle East, killing brown people and taking their oil? Hey, what if that's right? Guess who was behind this and who send the military there? No General comes up with this. He's told by the government that he needs to attack X location, so he does it. Not the military. Not the massive legion of baby-eating monsters you act like everyone associated with it is. I repeat - Stop oversimplifying things.
[QUOTE=x_xPwntx_x;34580081]You're implying every person who joins the military is a monster or something. I don't know why this happens.[/QUOTE]
The same way some people think: All Christians are crazy fanatics, all republicans are stupid, all democrats are pussies, all cops abuse their power... ad infinitum.
Some people just have an inability to think rationally and realistically.
you're not reading or even trying to understand my viewpoint, you're just attacking some character you made up that is easier to argue with.
the military is full of normal human beings, sure, but they made the choice to join.
i find it disappointing that a so-called altruistic person decided to join the armed forces and fight for an imperialistic nation.
now read instead of just going off assumptions.
and it's also the fault of the people who stand by and don't protest such militant imperialism.
[editline]6th February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Coridan;34580319]The same way some people think: All Christians are crazy fanatics, all republicans are stupid, all democrats are pussies, all cops abuse their power... ad infinitum.
Some people just have an inability to think rationally and realistically.[/QUOTE]
you can't call assumptions dumb while operating off of an assumption.
that makes you a hypocrite.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34580357]you're not reading or even trying to understand my viewpoint, you're just attacking some character you made up that is easier to argue with.
the military is full of normal human beings, sure, but they made the choice to join.
i find it disappointing that a so-called altruistic person decided to join the armed forces and fight for an imperialistic nation.
now read instead of just going off assumptions.
and it's also the fault of the people who stand by and don't protest such militant imperialism.[/QUOTE]
Actually, sorry, you're right, I went off on a horrible tangent.
Thing is that there's no fault in the person in joining the military. He's a good person either way. Do you think he didn't think he wanted to help people or something?
In the grand scheme of things, he died without resentment and whilst willingly serving his country.
And he's being rightfully remembered as a hero.
That's a good way to pass on if you ask me.
Obviously it's still tragic, however. The death of anyone who holds such selfless values is still a large loss.
My condolences to the family, at least the context of all of this will hopefully offer some comfort.
[QUOTE=x_xPwntx_x;34580406]Do you think he didn't think he wanted to help people or something?[/QUOTE]
no, like i said i find it disappointing.
i'd rather that good people stay away from armed occupation and militancy. he died in the name of an imperialistic military for no good reason.
I just hope when we withdraw it's not another Vietnam, like the Fall of Saigon in '75.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34580461]no, like i said i find it disappointing.
i'd rather that good people stay away from armed occupation and militancy. he died in the name of an imperialistic military for no good reason.[/QUOTE]
He died for something he believes in, that's the reason.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34580461]no, like i said i find it disappointing.
i'd rather that good people stay away from armed occupation and militancy. he died in the name of an imperialistic military for no good reason.[/QUOTE]He joined because he believed he'd be fighting to help free people in a foreign country from a cruel, brutal regime and eventually leading them to a better life.
And then WBC goes and protests the funeral like they always fucking do
[QUOTE=SPESSMEHREN;34580570]He died for something he believes in, that's the reason.[/QUOTE]
that's a very stupid reason.
the people who crashed planes into the WTC died for something they believed in too but that didn't make it any less horrible or pointless.
[editline]6th February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;34580586]He joined because he believed he'd be fighting to help free people in a foreign country from a cruel, brutal regime and eventually leading them to a better life.[/QUOTE]
well then frankly he was naive. you can't help people by invading their country, destroying their ecosystem, and installing your own regime.
that's not a better life and you know that.
[QUOTE=BloodYScar;34555944]Yeah, im sure that dieing for the financial interests of the elite was "all worth it".[/QUOTE]
I hate this false equivalency. Ron Paul supporters especially love to throw it around. Iraq for instance may of been for oil and MIC interests , but doesn't mean it didn't end up helping people in the region. They now have a democracy, and they kicked us out in the end. A good ending everyone should agree. The means is something you can dispute, not the end result. It's hard to argue they're worse off in the long run. Yes they're having sectarian conflicts going on, but that's something we didn't try to solve. We did fuck around with their country and bring it to its knees, starving incredible amounts of people, but the past is over, and what they fought for means something to the people who live there today.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34580461]no, like i said i find it disappointing.
i'd rather that good people stay away from armed occupation and militancy. he died in the name of an imperialistic military for no good reason.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure you said his altruism needs to be called into question. Like he's secretly a horrible person.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34555497]As much as I appreciate this sentiment, this quote seems a bit odd:
Was he seriously under the impression that he was safeguarding American children's lives by killing insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan? If so, then this quote is just preposterous, but any death is a sad one. On the other hand he could be referring to any children in the Middle East who may have been terrorized, in which case it's a great quote.[/QUOTE]
how dare he want to protect children in america
[QUOTE=yosupwatdis;34555373]worth it [I]no[/I] it wasn't worth it you are fucking dead you [B]stupid[/B] [B]asshole[/B] hes probably regretting those words in [I][B]hell[/B][/I]
dude i dont care what yall [B][U]niggas[/U][/B] think yall just likin da fuckin marine cause hes a fuckin marine yeah so ill join along [B]god bless murrica fallen marine respek[/B] [B]heil[/B][/QUOTE]
*Angry fist shaking and very very angry words*
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