[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906415]Coming in illegal makes you a criminal.[/QUOTE]
Ok sure, but you understand what I mean. I mean serious crimes like robbery and assault, etc.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;49906473]Ok sure, but you understand what I mean. I mean serious crimes like robbery and assault, etc.[/QUOTE]
So like failing to pay proper taxes can be included in that, and so can illegally coming in. Committing a crime should get you deported, coming in illegally, failing to file proper taxes, etc. makes you a criminal.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906482]So like failing to pay proper taxes can be included in that, and so can illegally coming in. Committing a crime should get you deported, coming in illegally, failing to file proper taxes, etc. makes you a criminal.[/QUOTE]
Smoking weed makes you a criminal. Burning churches makes you a criminal. Jaywalking makes you a criminal. Robbing a bank and murdering everyone inside makes you a criminal.
Now I don't think calling them "illegals" is dehumanizing like it's been said in this thread. But this? This is as dehumanizing as it gets
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49906559]Smoking weed makes you a criminal. Burning churches makes you a criminal. Jaywalking makes you a criminal. Robbing a bank and murdering everyone inside makes you a criminal.
Now I don't think calling them "illegals" is dehumanizing like it's been said in this thread. But this? This is as dehumanizing as it gets[/QUOTE]
Good thing I don't do any of those. It's not dehumanizing, they are committing a crime, regardless if you want to blame it in coming in illegally, which is unjust to people coming in legally as well, however failing to pay taxes is also a great offense. If I were to stop paying taxes, I'd go to court and either A) be ordered to pay, and if I wasn't able to I would go to jail, or B) go to jail if the sum/offenses were large enough.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906580]Good thing I don't do any of those. It's not dehumanizing, they are committing a crime, regardless if you want to blame it in coming in illegally, which is unjust to people coming in legally as well, however failing to pay taxes is also a great offense. If I were to stop paying taxes, I'd go to court and either A) be ordered to pay, and if I wasn't able to I would go to jail, or B) go to jail if the sum/offenses were large enough.[/QUOTE]
And I'm supposed to accept you're so strict on semantics because of your undying love for grammar? It's a lot easier to stop at "criminal" than to look into the reasons why they committed that crime, or whether or not they're productive members of society regardless of their status. It removes the human aspect and that's exactly what you're doing - though I wouldn't put it past you to fool yourself into thinking you're not
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49906603]And I'm supposed to accept you're so strict on semantics because of your undying love for grammar? It's a lot easier to stop at "criminal" than to look into the reasons why they committed that crime, or whether or not they're productive members of society regardless of their status. It removes the human aspect and that's exactly what you're doing - though I wouldn't put it past you to fool yourself into thinking you're not[/QUOTE]
I know why illegal immigrants come in, I understand a large majority want to send money back to their families in their home country. However, we have a process of immigration which they can submit for work visa's and citizenship if they so choose to go through a legal process. They are taking a risk, and knowingly doing something illegal. I fail to see how it is unjust to deport people like that, especially when we have people in our own country who can not find work, who can not find work or who can not feed their families.
I'm not appose to anyone coming in under work visa's or immigration processes, however if you want to work in the US you need to do it legally.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906639]I know why illegal immigrants come in, I understand a large majority want to send money back to their families in their home country. However, we have a process of immigration which they can submit for work visa's and citizenship if they so choose to go through a legal process. They are taking a risk, and knowingly doing something illegal. I fail to see how it is unjust to deport people like that, especially when we have people in our own country who can not find work, who can not find work or who can not feed their families.
I'm not appose to anyone coming in under work visa's or immigration processes, however if you want to work in the US you need to do it legally.[/QUOTE]
The legal process is broken.
You're voting for someone who's going to break it more
The legal process being more difficult will lead to more people trying any way they can.
You're creating your own problems and refusing to fix them as a nation.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906415]Coming in illegal makes you a criminal.[/QUOTE]
I figured I'd check, it's criminal to "jump the border," but not to overstay a visa or any other legal method of entry - then it's just a civil penalty.
Apparently, jaywalking is a criminal offense in some places, making that more severe in some jurisdictions than overstaying your visa.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49906657]The legal process is broken.
You're voting for someone who's going to break it more
The legal process being more difficult will lead to more people trying any way they can.
You're creating your own problems and refusing to fix them as a nation.[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree that we need to change the immigration process, but to state it is broken means it is helping no one. Which last I checked, people are still coming in using it.
If it is broken as you say, voting for someone who is going to "break" something broken(as you stated), can't be done. However, he will reform it.
Then we can use a wall and effective boarder patrol, with our coast guard to help deal with it.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906639]I know why illegal immigrants come in, I understand a large majority want to send money back to their families in their home country. However, we have a process of immigration which they can submit for work visa's and citizenship if they so choose to go through a legal process. They are taking a risk, and knowingly doing something illegal. I fail to see how it is unjust to deport people like that, especially when we have people in our own country who can not find work, who can not find work or who can not feed their families.
I'm not appose to anyone coming in under work visa's or immigration processes, however if you want to work in the US you need to do it legally.[/QUOTE]
You're painting people with black and white labels like "criminal" so you can excuse any rational discussion about the nature of someone's crime. This is the same kind of mentality that promotes mandatory minimums, lifetime 3 strike rules, and other relics in our criminal justice system. It's easier to think of someone as a criminal than as a person so that you can justify hating someone who wants nothing more than a better opportunity for his family.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;49906689]You're painting people with black and white labels like "criminal" so you can excuse any rational discussion about the nature of someone's crime. This is the same kind of mentality that promotes mandatory minimums, lifetime 3 strike rules, and other relics in our criminal justice system. It's easier to think of someone as a criminal than as a person so that you can justify hating someone who wants nothing more than a better opportunity for his family.[/QUOTE]
As explained, in the quote you posted. I fully understand what they are doing and why, however we have a legal process in place to handle people who wish to work in the US, [B][U]failing to do so makes you a criminal[/U][/B]. It is also unfair to people needing work who are citizens, as well as the millions of people who currently use the legal system in place.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906679]I don't disagree that we need to change the immigration process, but to state it is broken means it is helping no one. Which last I checked, people are still coming in using it.
If it is broken as you say, voting for someone who is going to "break" something broken(as you stated), can't be done. However, he will reform it.
Then we can use a wall and effective boarder patrol, with our coast guard to help deal with it.[/QUOTE]
It's not helping enough people. The people it does help, it took years and years longer than it should have, to help them. I should say "It's almost totally broken".
Trump will break it. It will get worse.
[editline]10th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906703]As explained, in the quote you posted. I fully understand what they are doing and why, however we have a legal process in place to handle people who wish to work in the US, [B][U]failing to do so makes you a criminal[/U][/B]. It is also unfair to people needing work who are citizens, as well as the millions of people who currently use the legal system in place.[/QUOTE]
Immigration numbers only show a million people a year at the height of it's "efficacy" for 2010-13
those people likely started their applications 5 years before hand minimum
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906703]As explained, in the quote you posted. I fully understand what they are doing and why, however we have a legal process in place to handle people who wish to work in the US, [B][U]failing to do so makes you a criminal[/U][/B]. It is also unfair to people needing work who are citizens, as well as the millions of people who currently use the legal system in place.[/QUOTE]
You keep reiterating this "criminal" things but what I'm hearing is "I see everything as moral black and whites". People come to the country illegally because our immigration system is broken. You want to make to system more fair for those who use it legally? Stop charging thousands of dollars, get rid of the decade-long waiting periods, and make it easier for people to come to this country legally, and they won't come here illegally. That's how you solve illegal immigration.
You and Trump? I doubt you want to solve it; I think building a wall is just a big ideological way to show that Trump and his supporters just don't like minorities. You honestly think a big expensive wall is going to prevent illegal immigration? It's not. You'd need an army of people to patrol it and at that point we're just resigning ourselves to emulating the North Korean DMZ. There are diplomatic and smart ways to solve illegal immigration, but that would just encourage brown people to come to the United States, wouldn't it?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49906712]It's not helping enough people. The people it does help, it took years and years longer than it should have, to help them. I should say "It's almost totally broken".
Trump will break it. It will get worse.[/QUOTE]
We need to help our own citizens, and fix our economy before we open our boarders to millions of people first. Citizens are working multiple part time jobs just to make ends meat, that's unacceptable. It does take a while, hell I work daily with people from India on work visa's, but they also agree that it isn't fair for people to just get a free pass and skip it all. We need to live up to and enforce the principal of the law in place, and begin reforming it.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906751]We need to help our own citizens, and fix our economy before we open our boarders to millions of people first. Citizens are working multiple part time jobs just to make ends meat, that's unacceptable. It does take a while, hell I work daily with people from India on work visa's, but they also agree that it isn't fair for people to just get a free pass and skip it all. We need to live up to and enforce the principal of the law in place, and begin reforming it.[/QUOTE]
Trump isn't going to be reforming it though. He's arguing to put up a physical wall, as well as beaucratic ones for immigrants.
Yes you should probably help your citizens but when you guys fight the minimum wage and any sort of thing that might actually help those people(Like the ACA) then I don't see how you're really trying to help.
I remember seeing President Bush with an elderly lady on stage, talking about jobs, and the elderly woman said "I work 3 jobs to make ends meet" and Bush said "A real hard working american" like this is how americans are supposed to be. It seems that's held true. And will stay so.
Honestly, I don't think you'll have people not working multiple shit jobs until you care about your citizens and I don't see your route doing that.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;49906745]You keep reiterating this "criminal" things but what I'm hearing is "I see everything as moral black and whites". People come to the country illegally because our immigration system is broken. You want to make to system more fair for those who use it legally? Stop charging thousands of dollars, get rid of the decade-long waiting periods, and make it easier for people to come to this country legally, and they won't come here illegally. That's how you solve illegal immigration.[/QUOTE]
The immigration system needs reform, this is undeniable, however we can't overlook the current situation we are in and just give people a pass. "Stop charging 1000s of dollars?" So who is going to pay for the interviews of the immigrants, people performing the background checks, pay for the paperwork and filing, etc? That's great in theory to say "just lower the cost" but checks need to be in place for all immagrants.
[quote]You and Trump? I doubt you want to solve it; I think building a wall is just a big ideological way to show that Trump and his supporters just don't like minorities. You honestly think a big expensive wall is going to prevent illegal immigration? It's not. You'd need an army of people to patrol it and at that point we're just resigning ourselves to emulating the North Korean DMZ. There are diplomatic and smart ways to solve illegal immigration, but [B]that would just encourage brown people to come to the United States, wouldn't it?[/B][/quote]
I disagree with your perception of the wall, it is to help boarder patrol more effectively patrol the boarder, and no a wall will not be the end all no one ever said it is the complete fix. The current solution requires patrols to ineffectively manage it where people can walk or drive across it. There are indeed smart ways to solve illegal immigration, and physical security is a good first step into effectively solving it. Also I don't get what you are saying in the bold text.
Has anyone thought about what's going to happen if you physically start building that wall, and who's going to hinder the construction?
What's the cost benefit analysis on the wall? At what point does it become a bloated government project?
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906782]The immigration system needs reform, this is undeniable, however we can't overlook the current situation we are in and just give people a pass. "Stop charging 1000s of dollars?" So who is going to pay for the interviews of the immigrants, people performing the background checks, pay for the paperwork and filing, etc? That's great in theory to say "just lower the cost" but checks need to be in place for all immagrants.[/quote]
Taxes? That's why we have taxes. Sure, an application fee is fine, but it's currently too expensive for a poor immigrant from Mexico to pay.
[quote]
I disagree with your perception of the wall, it is to help boarder patrol more effectively patrol the boarder, and no a wall will not be the end all no one ever said it is the complete fix. The current solution requires patrols to ineffectively manage it where people can walk or drive across it. There are indeed smart ways to solve illegal immigration, and physical security is a good first step into effectively solving it.[/QUOTE]
So instead of patrols, we ought to just have sentries every 100 or 1000 feet, on a big wall, armed with tasers or whatever weapons needed to stop illegal immigrants from entering?
Kind of like North Korea?
The bolded text means that I don't think that this is about jobs and illegal immigration and fairness to legitimate immigrants. I think it's about racism.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49906794]Has anyone thought about what's going to happen if you physically start building that wall, and who's going to hinder the construction?
What's the cost benefit analysis on the wall? At what point does it become a bloated government project?[/QUOTE]
Who will hinder it? That could be dealt with during it's construction. The cost was around 10-15Billion, which is very reasonable. Not to mention changing trade taxes will pay for it. Trump has stated this many times
[editline]10th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=proboardslol;49906797]Taxes? That's why we have taxes. Sure, an application fee is fine, but it's currently too expensive for a poor immigrant from Mexico to pay.[/quote]
Taxes are part of it, however there are still a lot of things needed to pay. Why are you singling out Mexico, illegal immigrants come from all over the world.
[quote]So instead of patrols, we ought to just have sentries every 100 or 1000 feet, on a big wall, armed with tasers or whatever weapons needed to stop illegal immigrants from entering?
Kind of like North Korea?[/quote]
No but a wall is good physical security to stop people from walking across, patrols can drive up and down the boarders more effectively as people will be moving slower from trying to use ladders, dig tunnels, making it easier for boarder security to track.
[quote]The bolded text means that I don't think that this is about jobs and illegal immigration and fairness to legitimate immigrants. I think it's about racism.[/QUOTE]
Illegal immigrants aren't a single race, stop classifying them as one.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906808]Who will hinder it? That could be dealt with during it's construction. The cost was around 10-15Billion, which is very reasonable. Not to mention changing trade taxes will pay for it. Trump has stated this many times[/QUOTE]
See? You haven't even thought that far.
The para military forces that are armed with more money than you actually realize.
The cartels.
Full fledged modern para military forces with a lot more training and a lot more weaponry than we here like to acknowledge.
And you really don't think they'd hinder construction?
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906639]I know why illegal immigrants come in, I understand a large majority want to send money back to their families in their home country. However, we have a process of immigration which they can submit for work visa's and citizenship if they so choose to go through a legal process. They are taking a risk, and knowingly doing something illegal. I fail to see how it is unjust to deport people like that, especially when we have people in our own country who can not find work, who can not find work or who can not feed their families.[/QUOTE]
And that process is lengthy, costly, and part of what many would say is a broken system. And while you're waiting for that process, time keeps ticking. Your children grow older, get poor education, and it becomes harder for them to integrate and learn the language. Your job doesn't pay much, and you live under a corrupt government, in a country where crime is more than rampant. The stress builds up, and you decide to take the easy way.
Yes, it's a crime. But that, despite you saying otherwise, is apparently all you understand. Because that's all you're reducing it to.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49906833]See? You haven't even thought that far.
The para military forces that are armed with more money than you actually realize.
The cartels.
Full fledged modern para military forces with a lot more training and a lot more weaponry than we here like to acknowledge.
And you really don't think they'd hinder construction?[/QUOTE]
Okay and if they hinder construction of a wall that will be built on US soil with force, the national guard, boarder patrol, etc.. can step in to help secure the workers and their surroundings.
[editline]10th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49906836]And that process is lengthy, costly, and part of what many would say is a broken system. And while you're waiting for that process, time keeps ticking. Your children grow older, get poor education, and it becomes harder for them to integrate and learn the language. Your job doesn't pay much, and you live under a corrupt government, in a country where crime is more than rampant. The stress builds up, and you decide to take the easy way.
Yes, it's a crime. But that, despite you saying otherwise, is apparently all you understand. Because that's all you're reducing it to.[/QUOTE]
Things take time, but faulting and creating another broken system to replace a "broken system" is only going to cause more hardship. If you are taking "the easy way" then you are accepting the fact that you are committing a crime, and are prepared for the consequences if caught. The fault lies solely on the one performing the action, not the country where a legal process is in place to allow immigrants in.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906838]Okay and if they hinder construction of a wall that will be built on US soil with force, the national guard, boarder patrol, etc.. can step in to help secure the workers and their surroundings.
[editline]10th March 2016[/editline]
Things take time, but faulting and creating another broken system to replace a "broken system" is only going to cause more hardship. If you are taking "the easy way" then you are accepting the fact that you are committing a crime, and are prepared for the consequences if caught. The fault lies solely on the one performing the action, not the country where a legal process is in place to allow immigrants in.[/QUOTE]
I'm just saying "When does this become a bloated government project destined to only be half done"
If you think that construction won't be hindered, cool, nice optimism. If you think that just having national guard and border patrols on hand will stop a force that's not even trying to kill you, just "Hinder construction", and are crafty as fuck will just "solve" the problem, I think you're too optimistic.
It just strikes me as incredibly weird how conservatives in todays world are all about big government.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;49906838]Things take time, but faulting and creating another broken system to replace a "broken system" is only going to cause more hardship. If you are taking "the easy way" then you are accepting the fact that you are committing a crime, and are prepared for the consequences if caught. The fault lies solely on the one performing the action, not the country where a legal process is in place to allow immigrants in.[/QUOTE]
How about we work towards fixing the system [I]first[/I], while letting the trend of [url=http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34874315]more immigrants leaving the country than coming in[/url] continue (something that will NOT happen if you ruin Mexico's economy with the mass deportation plan and a billion dollar wall project, which would give even MORE incentive for people to come over to the US)? You cannot admit that the system is broken and then say the fault "lies [I]solely[/I] on the one performing the action", how hypocritical can you be?
[QUOTE=proboardslol;49905668]I think we should deport criminal illegal immigrants, but all the hardworking people should be given some sort of path to citizenship. However, if we make it too lenient, it's unfair to the legal immigrants who spent years and thousands of dollars trying to immigrate to the US.[/QUOTE]
That and MAYBE just remove free benefits IF you are illegal.
Lose benefits, and you get 2 choices, either get a FREE ride back to your country, OR, you can stay but get 0 help/benefits until you become a citizen. You are still able to work.
Honestly I think so many people wouldnt give 2 fucks about illegal immigrants if they couldnt get free benefits, they can get them much easier than an actual citizen which just isnt right. Their really is only 3 types of illegals. Criminals, who should always be deported, benefit riders who dont do anything, and hardworking illegals who 9/10 times have taken basic labor jobs.
I mean at that point you only can complain about 1 group and that would be the criminals, which is entirely its own thing compared to working illegals.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49906904]I'm just saying "When does this become a bloated government project destined to only be half done"
If you think that construction won't be hindered, cool, nice optimism. If you think that just having national guard and border patrols on hand will stop a force that's not even trying to kill you, just "Hinder construction", and are crafty as fuck will just "solve" the problem, I think you're too optimistic.
It just strikes me as incredibly weird how conservatives in todays world are all about big government.[/QUOTE]
The various Terrorist factions in the Middle East that the US has been fighting were also just trying to hinder occupation and were pretty crafty too, yet they lost. But no, do tell how the US military isn't able to deal with a paramilitary.
Further, you're sort of proving the point of the massive need for increased border security if there are all of these dangerous and well funded groups that the US is unable able to prevent from entering the country.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;49906969]The various Terrorist factions in the Middle East that the US has been fighting were also just trying to hinder occupation and were pretty crafty too, yet they lost. But no, do tell how the US military isn't able to deal with a paramilitary.
Further, you're sort of proving the point of the massive need for increased border security if there are all of these dangerous and well funded groups that the US is unable able to prevent from entering the country.[/QUOTE]
Your war against Al-Quada created ISIS. Yes, lets see where that war goes again, closer to home.
Yes, you need border security, or you need to work on the things causing you to need border security.
Do you put a giant fucking bandage on a problem, or do you try to fix the problem?
Yes! Now your above the law if you illegal immigrate.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;49906969]The various Terrorist factions in the Middle East that the US has been fighting were also just trying to hinder occupation and were pretty crafty too, [B]yet they lost[/B].[/QUOTE]
So is this a satirical post, that will be followed by "Mission Accomplished" image, or you actually think this?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49906980]Your war against Al-Quada created ISIS. Yes, lets see where that war goes again, closer to home.
Yes, you need border security, or you need to work on the things causing you to need border security.
Do you put a giant fucking bandage on a problem, or do you try to fix the problem?[/QUOTE]
Defending our own border won't further destabilize the Mexican government, it won't lead to bombing cities; it's mostly just barien land in the middle of nowhere.
As to "fixing the problem". Legalizing all drugs in the US (to kill demand for illegal drugs)--which probably isn't the best idea--still leaves other revenue streams like human trafficking.
The majority of the problems are to do with Mexico and other South American governments being weak and corrupt, unable to deal with their own problems, and thus those problems pour over into the US. So, unless the US is going to invade Mexico to deal with the Cartels and replace the government--which actually might create a Mexican ISIS--the US can't fix Mexico in any short amount of time.
Given that, why is it bad to put a bandage on a wound to stem the bleeding until the doctor can get around to fix it properly? Why should the US sit around on its hands going "well it will all be better once we fix the problems Mexico and the other South American countries are having"?
[editline]10th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=gufu;49907055]So is this a satirical post, that will be followed by "Mission Accomplished" image, or you actually think this?[/QUOTE]
Terrorism wasn't destroyed; you can't destroy terrorism with war. It was crippled though, for a time. The same is happening with ISIS; they will be reduced from a powerful organization controlling vast swaths of land to pockets of resistance hiding in the mountains with little resources or ability to launch global terrorist attacks.
This entire thing with ISIS wouldn't have even happened if the US public had any will power and hadn't bitched for the US to pull out. That region wasn't stabilized yet and the US just left them to fend for themselves, with predictable results.
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