Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition is Coming to Xone/PS4 on June 14 while PC is on June 24 (Vergil, Tri - Polidicks

[QUOTE=TalonAran;47383239]Yeah especially when everyone takes it completely out of context and just says [sp]"he shot a pregnant hostage"[/sp]. You know when that [sp]hostage was a demon carrying the spawn of Mundus, something that was a boss fight even before it was born and could quite possibly be much worse if it were born.[/sp] I had more of an issue with [sp]Vergil using a gun at all, really.[/sp][/QUOTE] I think that whole scene just gets retroactively worse because of [sp]Dante rubbing it in Mundus' face. Also, Vergil probably didn't have to shoot both her and the child, and he absolutely didn't have to wait just long enough for her to realize what happened before shooting her[/sp]

[QUOTE=Konork;47383770]I think that whole scene just gets retroactively worse because of [sp]Dante rubbing it in Mundus' face. Also, Vergil probably didn't have to shoot both her and the child, and he absolutely didn't have to wait just long enough for her to realize what happened before shooting her[/sp][/QUOTE] It's amazing anyone even has to explain why that scene is fucked up anyhow - yeah sure they're demons but they're very human in appearance/function and [i]shooting a pregnant hostage[/i] doesn't become less fucked up because they're actually not human. It's like the anime justification of "no I'm not sexualizing a child, they're a 300 year old witch!". Slapping a different label on it doesn't change what just happened [QUOTE=Jackald;47385882]Yeah, see this is where I think the biggest divide really happens. I've put in about 200 hours into DMC4, and i'm only just now getting the hang of using jump cancels and style-switches effectively mid combo. The game has crazy replayability purely because there's such a high skill ceiling. In DmC, by contrast, the combat is way slower and staying in the air is hilariously easy, you can just use your grapple thing infinitely, glide around, pull yourself towards enemies, and just generally stay airborne. I remember one battle, where you're protecting Squirrel girl at a terminal, I just challenged myself to stay in the air perpetually and not get hit. I was playing on Son of Sparda difficulty, and it was just the most ridiculously easy thing. I think I landed once, and that was because I used the wrong colour coded weapon against a colour coded enemy. Plus you have like 3 dodge buttons, and the dodges have a huge window. In DMC4, Nero's Shuffle Step is requires you to perform the dodge practically as you get hit, but the reward for doing so is that you get a really stylish and instantaneous dodge instead of just a roll. That's the other thing. DMC4's entire combat system rewards stylish play. Taunting, for example, fills your magic meter, as well as enraging enemies to encourage some enemies to get closer quicker, so it has tactical advantage. Your combo meter is an encouragement to try and mix it up, whereas in DmC it's just kind of there, and it gets to SSS really easily with a few dodges. Basically it's like Mass Effect: The less you care about DMC4, the more you'll like DmC. DmC is not really a bad game, but it's unquestionably a dumbed down simulacrum of DMC4, and that's just not what I play Devil May Cry for. I mean imagine if Bayonetta 2 had been significantly easier than Bayonetta 1 and removed all weapons except the guns. It's that kind of difference.[/QUOTE] Don't know what you're getting at here, did you think that post was about DMC4? I was replying to someone about why I didn't like DmC. I've played a metric tonne of DMC so I pretty much know all this, but I just don't think DmC was a very good game

[QUOTE=TalonAran;47383239]Yeah especially when everyone takes it completely out of context and just says [sp]"he shot a pregnant hostage"[/sp]. You know when that [sp]hostage was a demon carrying the spawn of Mundus, something that was a boss fight even before it was born and could quite possibly be much worse if it were born.[/sp] I had more of an issue with [sp]Vergil using a gun at all, really.[/sp][/QUOTE] Or you could have just scrapped the whole [sp]demon abortion[/sp] thing to begin with because quite frankly Ninja Theory just doesn't have the ability to handle that sort of thing well. They can barely handle writing a dumb plot as a joke without making it sound cringeworthy, let alone a scene where a visibly pregnant woman gets killed. [sp]Vergil using a good to do it was just salt on the wound[/sp]

[QUOTE=Elspin;47386261]It's amazing anyone even has to explain why that scene is fucked up anyhow - yeah sure they're demons but they're very human in appearance/function and [i]shooting a pregnant hostage[/i] doesn't become less fucked up because they're actually not human. It's like the anime justification of "no I'm not sexualizing a child, they're a 300 year old witch!". Slapping a different label on it doesn't change what just happened[/QUOTE] If it was executed better it could've been a very impactful part of a story actually. The execution was bad since no one actually gave a shit about Vergil doing what he did. The fact that she was a humanlike demon could've further pulled the morality strings. But the result was pretty much no one caring and later Dante being a cunt about it.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47387259]If it was executed better it could've been a very impactful part of a story actually. The execution was bad since no one actually gave a shit about Vergil doing what he did. The fact that she was a humanlike demon could've further pulled the morality strings. But the result was pretty much no one caring and later Dante being a cunt about it.[/QUOTE] What kind of argument is "if it was executed better" though? There's very few scenarios in which a scene like that could improve a piece of media whether it be movies, tv, or game and least of all an action game where the protagonist looks like [url=http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111120069/3918692-5035642936-dmc-d.jpg]this[/url] and yells "fuck you!" constantly. The story is an absolute train wreck of a disaster and while the combat may not be terrible, it's dumbed down and just doesn't hold up to the alternatives

[QUOTE=Elspin;47387928]What kind of argument is "if it was executed better" though? There's very few scenarios in which a scene like that could improve a piece of media whether it be movies, tv, or game and least of all an action game where the protagonist looks like [url=http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111120069/3918692-5035642936-dmc-d.jpg]this[/url] and yells "fuck you!" constantly. The story is an absolute train wreck of a disaster and while the combat may not be terrible, it's dumbed down and just doesn't hold up to the alternatives[/QUOTE]Yeah you're right. Videogames are mostly for kids, it's not a serious medium.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47388005]Yeah you're right. Videogames are mostly for kids, it's not a serious medium.[/QUOTE] There's literally nothing in my posts that suggests they're not, you're just shitposting now. My point was not that videogames can't be serious, but that in a game where your protagonist looks like a grinning teenager and shouts "fuck you" at everybody splicing in a scene where a pregnant woman (demon or not) is shot during a hostage exchange by the protagonists in an especially cruel way is george lucas tier writing, it has no place there.

[QUOTE=Elspin;47387928]What kind of argument is "if it was executed better" though? There's very few scenarios in which a scene like that could improve a piece of media whether it be movies, tv, or game and least of all an action game where the protagonist looks like [url=http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111120069/3918692-5035642936-dmc-d.jpg]this[/url] and yells "fuck you!" constantly. The story is an absolute train wreck of a disaster and while the combat may not be terrible, it's dumbed down and just doesn't hold up to the alternatives[/QUOTE] So there's an objective scale of plot points that make a story factually terrible? Is the fictionalization of an idea, concept, or act equivalent to suggesting it's okay to do it in real life? Are some things just flat out off limits? [editline]24th March 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Elspin;47388051]There's literally nothing in my posts that suggests they're not, you're just shitposting now. My point was not that videogames can't be serious, but that in a game where your protagonist looks like a grinning teenager and shouts "fuck you" at everybody splicing in a scene where a pregnant woman (demon or not) is shot during a hostage exchange by the protagonists in an especially cruel way is george lucas tier writing, it has no place there.[/QUOTE] Why? Because you don't like it or because you deem it objectively bad? I'm no fan of it but not liking it doesn't mean someone can't write about it or create stories with it in it. Writing something is not tacitly approving it in real life.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47388168]So there's an objective scale of plot points that make a story factually terrible? Is the fictionalization of an idea, concept, or act equivalent to suggesting it's okay to do it in real life? Are some things just flat out off limits?[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say this is necessarily [i]off limits[/i], I mean it got past the censors. The point is you have to question what a scene adds to the media it's attached to, and what did that scene add to the game? I mean here's some hyperbole to illustrate the point - imagine there was a scene where Mario brutally kills Peach at the end of one his games because Peach doesn't reciprocate his romantic interests after all the effort he went through. A character murdering another character is definitely not out of bounds for gaming, it's been done before, but it would be [i]so out of place[/i] when taken in context with the rest of the game. In the same way, the scene is an absolute extreme that doesn't belong in a game with dick jokes, and childish "edgy" humour

[QUOTE=Elspin;47388224]I wouldn't say this is necessarily [i]off limits[/i], I mean it got past the censors. The point is you have to question what a scene adds to the media it's attached to, and what did that scene add to the game? I mean here's some hyperbole to illustrate the point - imagine there was a scene where Mario brutally kills Peach at the end of one his games because Peach doesn't reciprocate his romantic interests after all the effort he went through. A character murdering another character is definitely not out of bounds for gaming, it's been done before, but it would be [i]so out of place[/i] when taken in context with the rest of the game. In the same way, the scene is an absolute extreme that doesn't belong in a game with dick jokes, and childish "edgy" humour[/QUOTE] The difference is the tonality of the two games is radically different. That situation wouldn't happen in a Mario game. I don't know how to really approach your argument here because it's a fairly absurd analogy. If the question is always "Does this add to the media?" then we have a huge issue with almost all media forms that would surely make them all shortlived. What did DMC1-4 add to the media? It surely wasn't the most original story being based on variations and cliches of other stories and characters(Like all stories from all modern media), so what did they add? Does Mario add anything to the medium as a story?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47388267]The difference is the tonality of the two games is radically different. That situation wouldn't happen in a Mario game. I don't know how to really approach your argument here because it's a fairly absurd analogy.[/QUOTE] How you understand that a murder is out of place in Mario, but not how a scene where a terrified looking woman is shot during a hostage exchange then shot in the head after she realizes what's happened is out of place in a game like DmC is extremely bizarre [QUOTE]If the question is always "Does this add to the media?" then we have a huge issue with almost all media forms that would surely make them all shortlived. What did DMC1-4 add to the media? It surely wasn't the most original story being based on variations and cliches of other stories and characters(Like all stories from all modern media), so what did they add? Does Mario add anything to the medium as a story?[/QUOTE] By "adding to the media", I mean the instance of it not the whole medium. IE, if you had just cut that scene from the game and altered the plot to fit it, could it have been made much better by it? I definitely think so. It's been a major point for critics to slam the game and they could have handled that much better. What did DMC 1-4 add to the medium? Well, their combat has often been one of the benchmarks for action games, and while they've never really had an amazing story they have had some cheeky humour that's really added to the game and it's never been as cringey-awful as DmC

[QUOTE=Elspin;47388224]I wouldn't say this is necessarily [i]off limits[/i], I mean it got past the censors. The point is you have to question what a scene adds to the media it's attached to, and what did that scene add to the game? I mean here's some hyperbole to illustrate the point - imagine there was a scene where Mario brutally kills Peach at the end of one his games because Peach doesn't reciprocate his romantic interests after all the effort he went through. A character murdering another character is definitely not out of bounds for gaming, it's been done before, but it would be [i]so out of place[/i] when taken in context with the rest of the game. In the same way, the scene is an absolute extreme that doesn't belong in a game with dick jokes, and childish "edgy" humour[/QUOTE] Honestly that scene fits more than people give it credit for. By that point in the game (as far as I remember), Vergil has been pretty okay, a bit eager to get rid of Mundus, but nothing unexpected of an underground resistance really. The "shooting the "child"" thing was unexpected to the characters, Kat didn't expect it and she's hung around Vergil for a while. It's meant to show that he's not everything he seemed and he isn't the nice freedom fighter he claimed to be. This Vergil isn't the same as the old Vergil in how he wants to obtain power. Stopping the Mundus bloodline in any way was his goal, he took an awful action as his solution. Yeah it relies a fucking ton on the shock value, and yeah the game didn't exactly require it. But it works fairly well as a turnaround point. Even Dante, yes, childish "FUCK YOU" Dante, is horrified by the action, it's not played for laughs, it's a dramatic scene that gets a bit lost in the rest of the game. DmC is not DMC, there are massive thematic differences.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;47388342]Honestly that scene fits more than people give it credit for. By that point in the game (as far as I remember), Vergil has been pretty okay, a bit eager to get rid of Mundus, but nothing unexpected of an underground resistance really. The "shooting the "child"" thing was unexpected to the characters, Kat didn't expect it and she's hung around Vergil for a while. It's meant to show that he's not everything he seemed and he isn't the nice freedom fighter he claimed to be. This Vergil isn't the same as the old Vergil in how he wants to obtain power. Stopping the Mundus bloodline in any way was his goal, he took an awful action as his solution. Yeah it relies a fucking ton on the shock value, and yeah the game didn't exactly require it. But it works fairly well as a turnaround point. Even Dante, yes, childish "FUCK YOU" Dante, is horrified by the action, it's not played for laughs, it's a dramatic scene that gets a bit lost in the rest of the game. DmC is not DMC, there are massive thematic differences.[/QUOTE] I'm not necessarily saying that they couldn't have included something shocking and upsetting as an action of the protagonist but it's way too far, I mean Vergil could have just shot her and they could have removed the entire pregnancy subplot and it would have been way less out of place and cringeworthy.

[QUOTE=Elspin;47388367]I'm not necessarily saying that they couldn't have included something shocking and upsetting as an action of the protagonist but it's way too far, I mean Vergil could have just shot her and they could have removed the entire pregnancy subplot and it would have been way less out of place and cringeworthy.[/QUOTE]It would make no sense to shoot her if she wasn't pregnant. The fact that he shot her in the belly simply adds to Vergil as being a shady as fuck character and him not being all that different from pure blood demons. I stand by the fact that while it wasn't executed well, the idea itself is admirable. With better writing it could've been used very well.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47388429]It would make no sense to shoot her if she wasn't pregnant.[/QUOTE] Based on what? Hypothetically if she had gotten out alright she could have gotten pregnant, shooting her to death during a hostage exchange preemptively would have been way less extreme and had a similar effect. It's not like they couldn't have changed around a few other things in the story to have it make more sense anyway, or the plot could have been altered to avoid that scenario altogether and illustrate the same point in a different way. [QUOTE]The fact that he shot her in the belly simply adds to Vergil as being a shady as fuck character and him not being all that different from pure blood demons.[/QUOTE] The point is that you don't have to go that far to illustrate that, Mundus could have had 6 daughters who were all pregnant and Vergil could have done even more heinous things but why? You don't need to shoot a fucking pregnant woman to make someone out to be a villain. If you want games to be more "adult" you can't just throw in a really extreme out of place scene and call it that, the rest of it has to match. Take spec-ops the line, if you had spliced in goofy childish humour all throughout that game it would have been a fucking train wreck - it started off a bit lighthearted, sure, but the gradual change in tone was consistent and gradual even with shocking twists.

[QUOTE=Elspin;47388367]I'm not necessarily saying that they couldn't have included something shocking and upsetting as an action of the protagonist but it's way too far, I mean Vergil could have just shot her and they could have removed the entire pregnancy subplot and it would have been way less out of place and cringeworthy.[/QUOTE] That is entirely your view and nothing else. It is not a fact based opinion. Just an opinion. The difference between us is im not telling writers what' they can write [editline]24th March 2015[/editline] It wasn't out of the nature of the game at all. It perfectly fit in.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47388604]That is entirely your view and nothing else. It is not a fact based opinion. Just an opinion. The difference between us is im not telling writers what' they can write [editline]24th March 2015[/editline] It wasn't out of the nature of the game at all. It perfectly fit in.[/QUOTE] You also seem to be unable to tell the difference between "can" and "should" :v: I'm not telling anyone they [i]can't[/i] do anything, but I'd say that most people would agree it's a bad decision. You can stomp your feet and shout "just an opinion" all you want, but certain elements of writing can be objectively poor. Even if something [i]is[/i] subjective anyhow that doesn't mean you can't make an extremely strong case for an opinion one way or another, just like how you immediately understood why a violent murder at the end of a Mario game would be a bad idea.

[QUOTE=Elspin;47388678]You also seem to be unable to tell the difference between "can" and "should" :v: I'm not telling anyone they [i]can't[/i] do anything, but I'd say that most people would agree it's a bad decision. You can stomp your feet and shout "just an opinion" all you want, but certain elements of writing can be objectively poor. Even if something [i]is[/i] subjective anyhow that doesn't mean you can't make an extremely strong case for an opinion one way or another, just like how you immediately understood why a violent murder at the end of a Mario game would be a bad idea.[/QUOTE] Yes, because Mario shares nothing with the tonality of something like DMC or the DMC remake which consisted of a huge amount of grotesquieries across almost the entire plot and set it self up in that very tonality from much earlier in the game so it didn't come as a surprise to me when it happened. Sure, murder in a Mario game would by wildly out of character of the series. In DMC, the event you're describing as wildly out of character and pushing the boundary in a useless way is much more debatable and you haven't demonstrated such opinions in a way that I find to be agreeable. In this case, why is a game filled with gross crap suddenly going much, much too far at that point? What makes that so off limits? What puts that in a category of "Too far" that isn't based on just how you or some other people implicitly feel? If people don't want something like that, they're free to complain, and they're free to do so with their wallets first and foremost.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47388833]Yes, because Mario shares nothing with the tonality of something like DMC or the DMC remake which consisted of a huge amount of grotesquieries across almost the entire plot and set it self up in that very tonality from much earlier in the game so it didn't come as a surprise to me when it happened. Sure, murder in a Mario game would by wildly out of character of the series. In DMC, the event you're describing as wildly out of character and pushing the boundary in a useless way is much more debatable and you haven't demonstrated such opinions in a way that I find to be agreeable. In this case, why is a game filled with gross crap suddenly going much, much too far at that point? What makes that so off limits? What puts that in a category of "Too far" that isn't based on just how you or some other people implicitly feel? If people don't want something like that, they're free to complain, and they're free to do so with their wallets first and foremost.[/QUOTE] I just don't think you relate to how horrific most well adjusted people would agree an act like that is. I mean I'm pretty desensitized on a forum that regularly posts horrifying shit but show the scene to a friend who doesn't frequent internet forums sometimes, see what they think. In any case, vote with their wallets they did - the game sold poorly even compared to DMC4, which was considered a bit meh by fans.

[QUOTE=Elspin;47389084]I just don't think you relate to how horrific most well adjusted people would agree an act like that is. I mean I'm pretty desensitized on a forum that regularly posts horrifying shit but show the scene to a friend who doesn't frequent internet forums sometimes, see what they think. In any case, vote with their wallets they did - the game sold poorly even compared to DMC4, which was considered a bit meh by fans.[/QUOTE] It's fictional. It's demonic, it's horrible enough already, and it's fictional. I think well adjusted people wouldn't feel anything about that enough to be horrified. It's fictional and a well adjusted person wouldn't really care beyond a regular response to horrible things in fiction about horrible things.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47389351]It's fictional. It's demonic, it's horrible enough already, and it's fictional. I think well adjusted people wouldn't feel anything about that enough to be horrified. It's fictional and a well adjusted person wouldn't really care beyond a regular response to horrible things in fiction about horrible things.[/QUOTE] Again, extremely poor argument because plenty of fictional things make people very emotional. One of the best things about games is the interactive nature especially allows you to become more immersed in the experience, and if cartoons can make people laugh and cry I don't see how you could possibly be so confused that you'd think a scene wouldn't be horrific because it's "fictional". Games like "rapelay" are fictional and that doesn't stop the media from throwing a shitfit whenever they discover them. I don't see what you're trying to accomplish by making such poorly reasoned arguments though - it's clear that a lot of people found the scene disgusting whether you did or not, and in the end the game sold below expectations and it's sort of up in the air over the future of the reboot and the series in general. I've made my reasoning quite clear for why I personally think the story is like the star wars prequel of the series and if you don't agree with that, that's fine.

[QUOTE=Jackald;47385882]Plus you have like 3 dodge buttons, and the dodges have a huge window. In DMC4, Nero's Shuffle Step is requires you to perform the dodge practically as you get hit, but the reward for doing so is that you get a really stylish and instantaneous dodge instead of just a roll.[/QUOTE] Man, you're reminding me of the Brainscratch Commentaries playthrough by Lewis, who beat the game by probably the most boring gameplay possible. His method of dodging shit was running out of the way or jumping, and he repeatedly said the actual dodges were pointless and didn't do anything for him. But just from watching almost [i]anyone else[/i] play the game it's painfully obvious the dodges have invulnerability frames out the ass and turn even remotely-challenging fights into a cakewalk once you get the timing down.

You know, when everyone was freaking out about the redesign I was optimistic. I mean, yeah, you're going to reboot it of course you're going to want to change up the protagonist, and I wasn't going to have an aneurysm over a hairstyle change. But the writing, oh man the writing. Some of it felt like it was stripped straight from Mtv's reality show lineup. And they did the same thing Prototype 2 did with their protagonist by making Dante's main personality trait the fact that he yells 'fuck you' a lot.