Last Member of the Enola Gay has died. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Emperorconor;45538555] by dropping nuclear bombs on two major cities? what about all of the japanese people who didn't have anything to do with the war? did they deserve to be incinerated?[/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9N7dGUCSb4[/media] Japan was no different. The whole country was mobilized for war, they were raised on nationalist sentiment that they were the best in the world. Local factories in all the cities sprouted up making materials for the effort and university students were being asked about volunteering for kamikaze missions.

I've met this guy. He's actually a pretty chill dude. Talked with him about it and he explained it. I asked him, "Was it worth it?" he replied "Yes." firmly and strong.

Didn't a lot of people involved commit suicide very shortly afterwards because they couldn't stand the knowledge they just ended the lives of thousands of people.

[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;45547626]Didn't a lot of people involved commit suicide very shortly afterwards because they couldn't stand the knowledge they just ended the lives of thousands of people.[/QUOTE] Not that I know of. But I suppose "a lot" is pretty subjective.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45544312]Why do people who claim they're against war and stuff always state it in such a douchebag way like "pfft, i'm better than you uncivilized barbarians"[/QUOTE] To be fair, war is pretty damn barbaric.

[QUOTE=Polonium9;45547386]I've met this guy. He's actually a pretty chill dude. Talked with him about it and he explained it. I asked him, "Was it worth it?" he replied "Yes." firmly and strong.[/QUOTE] I think this is kind of obvious to be honest. To know that you were involved in something so horrific will weigh a lot upon a persons mind. If you think that it wasn't justified or worth it in some way, you are going to feel absolutely terrible about having been involved. The ones who committed suicide were quite obviously the men who knew they had shared responsibility for ending so many lives, and being unable to justify it to themselves, committed suicide out of guilt.

[QUOTE=Emperorconor;45547951]I think this is kind of obvious to be honest. To know that you were involved in something so horrific will weigh a lot upon a persons mind. If you think that it wasn't justified or worth it in some way, you are going to feel absolutely terrible about having been involved. The ones who committed suicide were quite obviously the men who knew they had shared responsibility for ending so many lives, and being unable to justify it to themselves, committed suicide out of guilt.[/QUOTE] Actually I couldn't find anything regarding suicides following the Manhattan Project, so they were probably scarce. If someone could find a source on that it would be appreciated.

[QUOTE=Falubii;45548434]Actually I couldn't find anything regarding suicides following the Manhattan Project, so they were probably scarce. If someone could find a source on that it would be appreciated.[/QUOTE] Well look at Einstein, although his involvement in the project was limited he was still a key player in making it happen. He was always a pacifist and hated war of all kinds, and admitted before he died that recommending that A-Bombs be made was his only regret in life. Though, he admitted that it was somewhat justifiable because of the possibility of the Nazi's beating them to the punch. Did he feel regret because he went against his own ways and inadvertently, though indirectly, led to the death of so many people? Probably, but these people realize that sometimes you have to go against your own ways and do things you couldn't dream of yourself doing to do what must be done, and by no means did he contemplate suicide because of it.

[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;45547316]volunteering for kamikaze missions.[/QUOTE] They didn't have enough planes so being picked was viewed as honorable.

[QUOTE=Falubii;45548434]Actually I couldn't find anything regarding suicides following the Manhattan Project, so they were probably scarce. If someone could find a source on that it would be appreciated.[/QUOTE] Only thing I could find was the recon pilot that flew shortly before the bombs were dropped. He [B]possibly[/B] tried to kill himself about 2-3 times. Theres no clear evidence of that, but it (wiki, sorry, too fucking tired right now to investigate) talks about his mental health breaking down. He apparently tried everything from sending money and apology letters to Japan to discrediting his "war hero" status by committing crimes. William Bradford "Bill" Huie, who was a journalist, had said that he doubted the entire story, saying is was made up by anti-nuclear activists and pacifists. He mentioned that Eatherly (The pilot) had continued to practice for future bombing missions and that he cooperated into the false stories for fame.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45543808]Is it that unlikely that a "simple" power demonstration would've made them change their mind? As I mentioned, the Soviet Union was also revving up. [/QUOTE] There was quite a bit of debate about this before the attack. Trinity might not have impressed them, as it wouldn't really demonstrate the scale unless they just took our word for it. It's kind of difficult to show the power of the thing unless you have something to destroy. So if you decide to do some other demonstration besides Trinity, you're also using up one of the only two nuclear weapons you have, which could be unwise. People really like to debate over the morality of the bombings as a whole, but I think the better question would be whether or not it was necessary to destroy Nagasaki.

[QUOTE=hanswithcheese;45538163]i remember reading somewhere that the crew of the enola gay had immediate regrets about dropping the bomb and that they didn't want to do it in the first place but orders are orders.[/QUOTE] kinda doubt that since they trained for a year on the manuvers that kept their plane from being destroyed by the fireball, they probably didn't know exactly how big the blast was in person but they knew on paper how big it was supposed to be

[QUOTE=Emperorconor;45539007]i know exactly what you're saying 2 bombs had to be dropped because in the long run it would save more lives unfortunately i disagree with this for two reasons: 1: technically it was a war crime 2: alternatives existed[/QUOTE] Yeah Europe should have just allowed the Third Reich to invade and they should have surrendered immediately. It would have saved lives.

I wonder what people would be saying if the US had nuked China during the Korean War like MacArthur had wanted. You might have saved lives and stopped alot of suffering with a couple of nukes, possibly winning the war and stopping NK from existing. [QUOTE=Pantz Master;45549557]Myth[/QUOTE] Looks like you're right. I should never take the word of President Truman.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;45549532]if the US had nuked China during the Korean War like MacArthur had wanted.[/QUOTE] Myth

[QUOTE=Falubii;45549015]There was quite a bit of debate about this before the attack. Trinity might not have impressed them, as it wouldn't really demonstrate the scale unless they just took our word for it. It's kind of difficult to show the power of the thing unless you have something to destroy. So if you decide to do some other demonstration besides Trinity, you're also using up one of the only two nuclear weapons you have, which could be unwise. People really like to debate over the morality of the bombings as a whole, but I think the better question would be whether or not it was necessary to destroy Nagasaki.[/QUOTE] Nagasaki was a port city and therefore a viable military target. Also as I've stated before Nagasaki was not the primary but secondary target on the mission, the first target being Kokura which bad weather prevented the bombing run.

[QUOTE=Emperorconor;45539007]i know exactly what you're saying 2 bombs had to be dropped because in the long run it would save more lives unfortunately i disagree with this for two reasons: 1: technically it was a war crime 2: alternatives existed[/QUOTE] Truman gets two folders relating on two final plans to end the Second World War, now that Hitler is dead, and Japan needs to surrender. Plan A: Start planning for a D-Day Sequel for the Japanese Mainland, that would most likely (Since there were people scared that Americans would rape and destroy everything, as well as undying loyalty to the Emperor), result in Chaos and alot of civilians and soldiers dying. It would damage not only Japan, but Japanese relations with America Post War. or Plan B: Deploy the recently finished new secret weapon called "The Atomic Bomb". A weapons at first researched by Nazi Science, foiled by British Secret Agents and Norwegians, and continued for the Allies by a Dr. Albert Einstein, a German Jew who escaped persecution. The Manhattan Project has finished their research, and tested the first device, codenamed "Trinity", and are waiting for the word to start work on two Atomic Weapons to be dropped on pre-planned targets. The goal was to hope that this wonder weapon would be enough to shock the Japanese Government into surrendering, rather than face utter annihilation. Not wanting to risk massive casualties for both sides, and innocent civilians, and just wanting the War to end now that Hitler was dead, Truman signed Plan B, and the plan worked. After Nagasaki, Emperor Hirohito signed unconditional surrender to the Allied Forces, thus ending the war. The bombs were the worst thing to happen to anybody, but at that point in history America had taken Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. At that point America was at the doorstep to Japan, and no matter what solution you could ever think up, either of the two plans would have had the consequences of death, shock, and possible alienation. But those bombs did their job that they were supposed to do, end the war immediately. Fun WWII Fact: [sp]Emperor Hirohito was the only member of the Axis forces to survive WWII! Shocking right? Mussolini was executed in 1943 after a miserably failed escape attempt, and Hitler bit down on cyanide and blew his brains out. Hirohito lived as the last major Japanese monarch until the 1980s.[/sp]

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;45549873]Nagasaki was a port city and therefore a viable military target. Also as I've stated before Nagasaki was not the primary but secondary target on the mission, the first target being Kokura which bad weather prevented the bombing run.[/QUOTE] I'm speaking of whether or not they should have been given more time before dropping another atomic bomb, not the choice of city.

Adding to this, there were no other Alternatives. Put it in perspective of the American Government, mid summer of 1945. The Japanese populace is willing to resist tooth and nail against any Allied forces, and not only was there that to think about, there was also ANOTHER looming worry. See, Soviet Russia had just kicked Germany's teeth in, and in the process acquired half of Germany, and everything between Russia's half, and Russia herself. Now let's go back to early in the war after Hitler decided to go for broke and head for Russia. Russia, like Germany, was worried about a two front war; With Germany invading from the West, it wouldn't be a bad idea for Japan to come in from the East through Siberia. Luckily, through espionage, Stalin found that Japan was more concerned with Russian planted Chinese commies, resistance forces throughout the Pacific Islands and Southeast Asia, and of course the Allied Forces of the area (America, England, and Australia). As such Stalin was able to focus on defending, and eventually offending, against the Nazis. Well now that Hitler was dead, and Berlin was theirs, Russia looked eastward and said "Hey! Those Americans and Chinese have pushed Japan back, and we now have half of Berlin to our own, and a bunch of proxy states, LET'S GO TO JAPAN AND TAKE HALF OF IT OURSELVES! Yes, a possible second Berlin Wall was very probably, so America had to choose between invasion or A-Bombs, to avoid Soviets getting their hands on Japan. [editline]30th July 2014[/editline] God I love being a history nerd. [editline]30th July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Falubii;45550165]I'm speaking of whether or not they should have been given more time before dropping another atomic bomb, not the choice of city.[/QUOTE] fucking ninja slice

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;45550015]Fun WWII Fact: [sp]Emperor Hirohito was the only member of the Axis forces to survive WWII! Shocking right? Mussolini was executed in 1943 after a miserably failed escape attempt, and Hitler bit down on cyanide and blew his brains out. Hirohito lived as the last major Japanese monarch until the 1980s.[/sp][/QUOTE] The US actually wanted to execute Emperor Hirohito, however he was saved by the words of, surprisingly enough, General MacArthur. MacArthur and several other Marine Corps higher ups believed that if they executed the Emperor, the Japanese would either rise up or completely isolate themselves again, costing the US a possible ally in the Asian Pacific. Evidence shows just as well, that Hirohito was mostly oblivious to many parts of the war, preferring to study marine biology then become involved in war and politics.

[QUOTE=Moustacheman;45550234]The US actually wanted to execute Emperor Hirohito, however he was saved by the words of, surprisingly enough, General MacArthur. MacArthur and several other Marine Corps higher ups believed that if they executed the Emperor, the Japanese would either rise up or completely isolate themselves again, costing the US a possible ally in the Asian Pacific. Evidence shows just as well, that Hirohito was mostly oblivious to many parts of the war, preferring to study marine biology then become involved in war and politics.[/QUOTE] Indeed, it would have just led to bad blood. And especially in the case of the Cold War, America needed an ally close to Communist China. I've read that Hirohito had then dedicated his life to more Marine Biology after the war ended, I think he erected some museum or whatever. Funny that MacArthur saved Japan, even though he had no qualms on nuking the fuck out of Korea and China :v: Yeahh MacArthur got preeeety weird into the 1950s.

[QUOTE=Emperorconor;45547951] The ones who committed suicide were quite obviously the men who knew they had shared responsibility for ending so many lives, and being unable to justify it to themselves, committed suicide out of guilt.[/QUOTE] You can justify ending the lives of over 100,000 people, but that doesn't mean you would be able to cope with the guilt. Theres soldiers who have shot enemy combatants in Iraq and Afghanistan, and don't regret doing so but still suffer from mental trauma and guilt because of it.. [QUOTE=Pantz Master;45549557]Myth[/QUOTE] cite that pls

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;45550015]Plan B: Deploy the recently finished new secret weapon called "The Atomic Bomb". A weapons at first researched by Nazi Science, foiled by British Secret Agents and Norwegians, and continued for the Allies by a Dr. Albert Einstein, a German Jew who escaped persecution. The Manhattan Project has finished their research, and tested the first device, codenamed "Trinity", and are waiting for the word to start work on two Atomic Weapons to be dropped on pre-planned targets. The goal was to hope that this wonder weapon would be enough to shock the Japanese Government into surrendering, rather than face utter annihilation.[/QUOTE] Just a few nitpicks. Though there was fear at first that the Nazis could be developing an atomic bomb, it was discovered (still during the war) that they were miles behind the US and basically had no chance of producing a bomb. Also, Albert Einstein had virtually nothing to do with the Manhattan Project. He merely signed a letter that was written by Leo Szilard and delivered to FDR. This prompted FDR to make a small committee including Enrico Fermi and Leo Szilard, so they could do some uranium chain reaction experiments to see whether or not a chain reaction was feasible. Even without Einstein's signature it seems probable that the US would have started such a committee soon after.

Snip am dumb

[QUOTE=Falubii;45550263]Just a few nitpicks. Though there was fear at first that the Nazis could be developing an atomic bomb, it was discovered (still during the war) that they were miles behind the US and basically had no chance of producing a bomb. Also, Albert Einstein had virtually nothing to do with the Manhattan Project. He merely signed a letter that was written by Leo Szilard and delivered to FDR. This prompted FDR to make a small committee including Enrico Fermi and Leo Szilard, so they could do some uranium chain reaction experiments to see whether or not a chain reaction was feasible. Even without Einstein's signature it seems probable that the US would have started such a committee soon after.[/QUOTE] First, yes that is true, but it had to be noted that reguardless, Nazis were working on nukes. Second, that might be true, but Einstein wrote the letter, therefore Einstein technically gave us the idea. Therefore, Einstein gets the credit kinda.

[QUOTE][/QUOTE][QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;45550280]First, yes that is true, but it had to be noted that reguardless, Nazis were working on nukes. Second, that might be true, but Einstein wrote the letter, therefore Einstein technically gave us the idea. Therefore, Einstein gets the credit kinda.[/QUOTE] No he didn't even write it. That was Leo Szilard. Einstein was just a hotshot so his signature gave the letter a little more credibility. Leo Szilard basically came up with the idea of the nuke, and it truly haunted him, certainly more than Einstein.

[QUOTE=Falubii;45550292]No he didn't even write it. That was Leo Szilard. Einstein was just a hotshot so his signature gave the letter a little more credibility.[/QUOTE] History gave the credit to him anyway, so does it matter? When people think of The Manhattan Project and what got it started, everyone just says Einstein.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;45550247]Indeed, it would have just led to bad blood. And especially in the case of the Cold War, America needed an ally close to Communist China. I've read that Hirohito had then dedicated his life to more Marine Biology after the war ended, I think he erected some museum or whatever. Funny that MacArthur saved Japan, even though he had no qualms on nuking the fuck out of Korea and China :v: Yeahh MacArthur got preeeety weird into the 1950s.[/QUOTE] MacArthur was a warmonger, and a fucking smart one at that. MacArthur knew that Japan would be a good ally in the Pacific because America and its allies would likely be putting their boots onto Asian soil again at some point, against whom, he wasn't sure. But sure enough, we went into Korea, and MacArthur chased the Northies up into China and the Chinese retaliated. O'l Douggie's plan was to glass most of the continent with the newly developed A-Bomb.

[QUOTE=Moustacheman;45550307]MacArthur was a warmonger, and a fucking smart one at that. MacArthur knew that Japan would be a good ally in the Pacific because America and its allies would likely be putting their boots onto Asian soil again at some point, against whom, he wasn't sure. But sure enough, we went into Korea, and MacArthur chased the Northies up into China and the Chinese retaliated. O'l Douggie's plan was to glass most of the continent with the newly developed A-Bomb.[/QUOTE] He knew how to Douggie. Unfortunately his plan to blow up a chunk of Asia with Nuclear bombs got him canned.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;45550303]History gave the credit to him anyway, so does it matter? When people think of The Manhattan Project and what got it started, everyone just says Einstein.[/QUOTE] Okay? I'm more concerned with facts than common misconceptions. If you want accurate history pertaining to the development of the atomic bomb I would recommend The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes.