[QUOTE=Sanius;31767098]uh I don't know about you but as far as I'm concerned killing somebody is not a punishment and life in prison is a completely redundant waste of time
people who commit crimes like this are broken is one way or another. killing them or throwing them in a shitty prison for 10+ years only compounds problems[/QUOTE]
How is life in prison a waste of time? Also what does rehabilitating a depraved murderer accomplish?
[QUOTE=Mr. N;31767266]Also what does rehabilitating a depraved murderer accomplish?[/QUOTE]
It reforms a person and makes them a productive member of society. Would you seriously rather prefer that he be put in a prison, treated badly, and then spit out with a high chance of committing again?
[QUOTE=Mr. N;31767266]How is life in prison a waste of time? Also what does rehabilitating a depraved murderer accomplish?[/QUOTE]
it accomplishes saving a human life rather than breeding a bitter broken human being
snip for redundancy
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31767166]You pretty much said that you can't determine how someone can be rehabilitated based on their brain and their behavior, and that you think that psychiatrists can't rehabilitate someone.[/QUOTE]
No what I said is that rehabilitation isn't as complicated as you think. You see these murderers as some mindless individuals who require some highly educated psychiatrist's help in order to learn that killing a defenseless child is wrong.
And also yes, sometimes rehabilitation doesn't even work. But I don't blame the psychiatrists or the whole concept of rehabilitation for that, I blame the perpetrators of all kind, obviously.
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;31767407]And also yes, sometimes rehabilitation doesn't don't dick. But the rehabilitation or the psychiatrists are not to blame of course, but the perpetrators of all kind.[/QUOTE]
Can you cite any examples of criminals where rehabilitation was tried and failed?
[editline]16th August 2011[/editline]
Legitimate rehabilitation strategy, like Norway-level.
Norway-level of rehab.. like, life imprisonment in a comfortable cell, plus psychiatric appointments?
But yes I could cite some.. Like the last statements of death row inmates, some of them had even rehabilitated themselves; they were truly sorry, they knew exactly what they had done and they wished their deaths would bring peace to the victim's family/whoever. That's a rehabilitated individual alright, only too late.
[QUOTE=Sanius;31767289]it accomplishes saving a human life rather than breeding a bitter broken human being[/QUOTE]
Not in American prisons.
[QUOTE=Ond kaja;31766993]Rehabilitation IS the punishment.[/QUOTE]
By the look of norways prisons, I'd rather go there than actually be on the outside.
[QUOTE=Lord of Awesome;31767567]Not in American prisons.[/QUOTE]
that's a given, american prisons do nothing in the way of rehabilitation
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31767287]It reforms a person and makes them a productive member of society. Would you seriously rather prefer that he be put in a prison, treated badly, and then spit out with a high chance of committing again?[/QUOTE]
Or this person could be kept there without being spat out at all, no hope to commit this type of crime ever again? Honestly when most people talk about jailtime for people like this, they usually don't mean anything less than life in prison.
[QUOTE=Sanius;31767289]it accomplishes saving a human life rather than breeding a bitter broken human being[/QUOTE]
The man is already broken and depraved. Why do you does his life deserve to be saved in your honest opinion?
It also seems the victim is completely irrelevant at the moment to people who agree with rehabilitation. That his death was completely in vain without any form of justice.
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;31767553]Norway-level of rehab.. like, life imprisonment in a comfortable cell, plus psychiatric appointments?
But yes I could cite some.. Like the last statements of death row inmates, some of them had even rehabilitated themselves; they were truly sorry, they knew exactly what they had done and they accepted the punishment like they should. That's a rehabilitated individual alright, only too late.[/QUOTE]
Norway doesn't have the death penalty, so no, I'd say that doesn't apply. However, if you can source that, I'd like to see it.
[editline]16th August 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. N;31767584]The man is already broken and depraved. Why do you does his life deserve to be saved in your honest opinion?[/quote]
His life deserved to be saved because he is a human and clearly has mental issues that should be dealt with.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;31767584]It also seems the victim is completely irrelevant at the moment to people who agree with rehabilitation. That his death was completely in vain without any form of justice.[/QUOTE]
Completely in vain? No justice? I get the impression that your idea of "justice" is fairly similar to retribution.
I edited it, read it again (well basically same). And I didn't say Norway has the death penalty, I'm not stupid.
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;31767628]I edited it, read it again (well basically same). And I didn't say Norway has the death penalty, I'm not stupid.[/QUOTE]
So if you can source criminals where Norway-level rehabilitation has really failed, I'd like to see it. You can see in a big way how much better it is with the simple fact that the recidivism rate in Norway is much lower than in the US.
And here's a source for both nations' recidivism rates: [url]http://www.newsoxy.com/features/recidivism-rate-in-norway-28356.html[/url]
[QUOTE=Mr. N;31767584]
The man is already broken and depraved. Why do you does his life deserve to be saved in your honest opinion?[/quote]
because he's a human
[quote]It also seems the victim is completely irrelevant at the moment to people who agree with rehabilitation. That his death was completely in vain without any form of justice.[/QUOTE]
you seem to be mixing up justice with vengeance and blood lust. killing this man will not bring the child back
People who are rehabilitated using the methods norway uses essentially get away with the crime, you just kill someone, spend about 6 years in a nice hotel and then leave with virtually no repercussions.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31767586]Norway doesn't have the death penalty, so no, I'd say that doesn't apply. However, if you can source that, I'd like to see it.
[editline]16th August 2011[/editline]
His life deserved to be saved because he is a human and clearly has mental issues that should be dealt with.
Completely in vain? No justice? I get the impression that your idea of "justice" is fairly similar to retribution.[/QUOTE]
He also took a human life in cold blood, he still deserves the luxury despite any of his actions?
Also, maybe it is. So what form of "justice" do you think his death calls for, or is it completely irrelevant because he is dead?
Also I got to leave this lovely millionth discussion on this topic until the night.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;31767776]People who are rehabilitated using the methods norway uses essentially get away with the crime, you just kill someone, spend about 6 years in a nice hotel and then leave with virtually no repercussions.[/QUOTE]
and how many people who go through this rehabilitation are repeat offenders
Hey I don't give a shit about your cites and sources. Obviously there's not as much people beyond rehabilitation than there is in the US, so there's that. It's easier with Norway because less people (less crimes, less recidivism)
And can you source me a batshit murderer who has been put through rehabilitation and is now a calm, good person? Oh wait you probably can't because they are in prison. Also, religiousness does that too, rehabilitates people.
[QUOTE=Sanius;31767821]and how many people who go through this rehabilitation are repeat offenders[/QUOTE]
Of course they won't be reoffenders, if they've already killed the person they wanted to kill why would they do it again?
Yes rehabilitation works for those people who have been fucked over by society, it doesn't work for those who haven't.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;31767865]Of course they won't be reoffenders, if they've already killed the person they wanted to kill why would they do it again?
[/QUOTE]
...what?
[QUOTE=Sanius;31767887]...what?[/QUOTE]
Read it again.
Write up an argument, have Sanius quote and edit out the rest except for one line and replying "..what?"
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;31767948]Write up an argument, have Sanius quote and edit out the rest except for one line and replying "..what?"[/QUOTE]
I'd take him more seriously if he didn't go around dumb rating every post he disagrees with.
I could sooooort of understand someone mercy-killing their seriously disabled child to save them from a lifetime of suffering. But decapitating, dismembering and putting out the head on the street so the mother could "feel stupid" is simply disgusting.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;31767865]Of course they won't be reoffenders, if they've already killed the person they wanted to kill why would they do it again?
Yes rehabilitation works for those people who have been fucked over by society, it doesn't work for those who haven't.[/QUOTE]
This seems to involve the assumption that all murders are pre-meditated and are done purely out of wanting to kill that person. That isn't always the case, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that mostly isn't the case.
[editline]16th August 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;31767776]People who are rehabilitated using the methods norway uses essentially get away with the crime, you just kill someone, spend about 6 years in a nice hotel and then leave with virtually no repercussions.[/QUOTE]
And the recidivism rate goes down, that's what's important. Virtually no repercussions? What's the point of a punishment that doesn't solve any problems?
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31768171]This seems to involve the assumption that all murders are pre-meditated and are done purely out of wanting to kill that person. That isn't always the case, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that mostly isn't the case.
[editline]16th August 2011[/editline]
And the recidivism rate goes down, that's what's important. Virtually no repercussions? What's the point of a punishment that doesn't solve any problems?[/QUOTE]
I just think it should be a mixture of punishment and rehabilitation, teach them real skills and what not but still punish them.
And we're mostly forgetting that Jail isn't as viable an option as some may think. Remember, we have to keep him fed, clothed, and housed. And that's also another set of hands to help in a riot, or at least another mouth to feed.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;31768307]teach them real skills and what not but still punish them.[/QUOTE]
What is that going to accomplish other than satisfy a desire for retribution?
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31768357]What is that going to accomplish other than satisfy a desire for retribution?[/QUOTE]
Gives them a deterrent.
It's far more important to prevent the crime before it happens.
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