• German court acquits seven members of Wuppertal's 'Shariah police'
    80 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Samiam22;51411331]Which isn't entirely relevant to what these guys are doing. If, by Sharia, you are supposed to not do this and that, and you want to intentionally follow that, that's fine, the problem comes when you force those values on others. These men did not do any forcing.[/QUOTE] It's massively non-kosher for anyone to do a night-time patrol to promote a religions law period, even a mock religious patrol. This wouldn't be okay if christians, hindus, buddhists or vegans did it. I think these people are disturbing peace on the streets deliberately, and i think it's perfectly fucking fair for the community to react against them. And Big dumb american had his little giggle about 'oh but you see all the woman-beating and stoning and burning, death sentences for apostasy. that's all your interpretation'- Like fuck off dude. Yeah most muslim nations have their own cultural variations on what shariah is, and basically none of them come close to anything that's compatible with western ideals of freedom. There is no shame in vilifying Shariah as a concept, and people aren't being reactionary when they say shariah has no place in a free society. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
Sharia is the religious law governing the members of the Islamic faith not members of the German public. The ringleader of these sharia police is known to police, he is a troublemaker and is currently being charged with supporting a foreign terrorist organization, but hey, you carry on defending his actions. As long as folks keep apologising for islamic fundamentalists like Sven Lau the longer they will remain. [QUOTE] On April 12, 2016, the attorney general said that 2016 indictment Lau for providing support to foreign terrorist organization Jamwa before April 8 State Security Division of the Higher Regional Court Dusseldorf was charged. [46] Lau allegedly acts as a link to Jamwa and 2013, three night vision devices Armed for Islamic fighters in Syria, helped two men to leave for Syria, and handed over money to one of them. He himself had traveled several times to Syria. [47] [48] The charges were approved in full. The trial began on September 6, 2016. [49] [50] Stand September 6, 2016 were 30 days of hearings set to 18 January 2017. [/QUOTE]
Doesn't seem like a huge deal, if one of these guys approached you and told you to stop drinking you COULD just tell them to fuck off, they're not any worse than street preachers or salesmen. I don't see why they should be charged unless they are hurting people.
Lol, if those would be jehovah witness-es police, everyone would be "fuck em, serves 'em right" but Islam is somehow cool.
They have a right to free speech. Unless they assaulted someone, they can wear whatever the fuck they want. If they go up and say "stop eating pork that is haram," that is their right. It's also your right to tell them to choke on Muhammad's cock and continue eating your bacon. Just because they offend you doesn't mean they should be censored. Unless they're being violent, so what. They're no different than the street preachers on college campuses that scream at people and tell them they'll burn in hell for liking dicks. They have that right, like it or not, so long as they're on public property. If they break a law, my tone will change. But they didn't. And since I value the right to freedom of expression, and even though I disagree with them and dislike Sharia Law, I'll defend their right to do this.
Except they weren't peaceful, some of them are on trial for supporting terror groups
[QUOTE=.Isak.;51413705]They have a right to free speech. Unless they assaulted someone, they can wear whatever the fuck they want. If they go up and say "stop eating pork that is haram," that is their right. It's also your right to tell them to choke on Muhammad's cock and continue eating your bacon. Just because they offend you doesn't mean they should be censored. Unless they're being violent, so what. They're no different than the street preachers on college campuses that scream at people and tell them they'll burn in hell for liking dicks. They have that right, like it or not, so long as they're on public property. If they break a law, my tone will change. But they didn't. And since I value the right to freedom of expression, and even though I disagree with them and dislike Sharia Law, I'll defend their right to do this.[/QUOTE] Pretty much every freedom you have, even in a country as christian-heavy as the US, are directly a result of consciously distancing yourself from Religion as a law-making institution. It's the cornerstone of all modern societies, and what these men are doing should disturb and disgust you. In a way these people are using the freedom of their new nations to call for the abolition of said freedoms. And that shit deserves nothing but scorn. Grow a fucking spine, if you are a liberal stand up for the shit you believe in, don't just roll over and let people shit on you because you think they've been oppressed once or twice.
[QUOTE=Fourier;51414006]Except they weren't peaceful, some of them [B]are on trial[/B] for supporting terror groups[/QUOTE][emphasis mine] That means they're being prosecuted for that, doesn't it? You just defeated your argument by yourself in 1.5 posts. Congratulations. [editline]23rd November 2016[/editline] All that aside, something being 'not illegal' doesn't equate to it being 'somehow cool'. People sometimes do offensive stuff here, but I'd rather not trade that for an Islamist-like totalitarian state that controls expression to a high degree. (Harassment and intimidation are already illegal(-ish), as is causing a public disturbance, so if they went into seriously threatening territory they'd get the book thrown at them the same as people from any other cause or confession.)
[QUOTE=St33m;51412430] And Big dumb american had his little giggle about 'oh but you see all the woman-beating and stoning and burning, death sentences for apostasy. that's all your interpretation'- Like fuck off dude.[/QUOTE] lol wat
[QUOTE=taipan;51410847]They where just walking around in orange vests telling people that what they where doing would be against Shariah law. They did not enforce ennything, and did not look like actual officers.[/QUOTE] Orange vests that say "POLICE" on them, which combined with the fact that police officers may wear similar vests, could cause confusion. If they aren't hurting anyone then whatever, but they should not be allowed to suggest they are sanctioned law enforcement.
[QUOTE=St33m;51414037]Pretty much every freedom you have, even in a country as christian-heavy as the US, are directly a result of consciously distancing yourself from Religion as a law-making institution. It's the cornerstone of all modern societies, and what these men are doing should disturb and disgust you. In a way these people are using the freedom of their new nations to call for the abolition of said freedoms. And that shit deserves nothing but scorn. Grow a fucking spine, if you are a liberal stand up for the shit you believe in, don't just roll over and let people shit on you because you think they've been oppressed once or twice.[/QUOTE] do you realise you're saying we should have a less free society so people can get punished for abusing those freedoms by saying we should be less free (to drink, gamble, etc.) I dislike Islam as well but you are delusional, and possibly confused.
[QUOTE=St33m;51414037]Pretty much every freedom you have, even in a country as christian-heavy as the US, are directly a result of consciously distancing yourself from Religion as a law-making institution. It's the cornerstone of all modern societies, and what these men are doing should disturb and disgust you. In a way these people are using the freedom of their new nations to call for the abolition of said freedoms. And that shit deserves nothing but scorn. Grow a fucking spine, if you are a liberal stand up for the shit you believe in, don't just roll over and let people shit on you because you think they've been oppressed once or twice.[/QUOTE] I have a spine. I am a liberal, and I believe in freedom of speech and freedom of religion as core values of society. Those freedoms are the [I]backbone[/I] of liberal democracies across the globe - you're the one abandoning your values out of fear. The strength of a free democracy is that [I]all[/I] people have a right to express their opinion. I despise fascism, but I would never call on government to censor it. That's not "rolling over and letting people shit on me," and it has nothing to do with oppression - it's because I value the right to share your opinion and discuss it with others, no matter how much it goes against the values that give you the ability to share it in the first place. Now, if they are violent, charge them with a crime. If they incite violence, charge them with a crime. That's how our system works. I disagree with what these men are saying. I disagree with what the Westboro Baptist Church is saying. I disagree with what the people attending that recent neo-nazi rally are saying. But they have an [I]unalienable[/I] right to say it. You're disrespecting the core values that make Western society great. If I were to do as you say, I'd have [I]you[/I] thrown in jail for speaking against "the cornerstone of all modern societies." You have a right to share your opinion - [I]and so do they[/I], no matter how much you or I disagree.
[QUOTE=Tamschi;51414129][emphasis mine] That means they're being prosecuted for that, doesn't it? You just defeated your argument by yourself in 1.5 posts. Congratulations. [editline]23rd November 2016[/editline] All that aside, something being 'not illegal' doesn't equate to it being 'somehow cool'. People sometimes do offensive stuff here, but I'd rather not trade that for an Islamist-like totalitarian state that controls expression to a high degree. (Harassment and intimidation are already illegal(-ish), as is causing a public disturbance, so if they went into seriously threatening territory they'd get the book thrown at them the same as people from any other cause or confession.)[/QUOTE] Defeated in what sense? Lots of people here seems to talk that these guys didn't do nothing wrong, have to remind them they are wrong.
i do not believe the law should get involved but i do believe we should openly criticize them and others of other religious dominations doing similar things.
[QUOTE=bitches;51409686]"practicing law without a license" is quite a stretch they're hardly impersonating police either; they're not trying to fool anyone the real problem is them using intimidation to enforce their religion onto others[/QUOTE] They're literally calling themselves the police and wearing official looking vests. Just sewing on an official police patch to your clothes, no matter how distanced your clothes may be, is illegal here. This is well over the line
[QUOTE=meek;51412903]Doesn't seem like a huge deal, if one of these guys approached you and told you to stop drinking you COULD just tell them to fuck off, they're not any worse than street preachers or salesmen. I don't see why they should be charged unless they are hurting people.[/QUOTE] Most of the things you listed as 'they're not any worse than' is illegal in the UK, or at least strictly regulated.
Some where in the depths of hell, Satan is making Hitler watch this, and Hitler is just screaming and screaming.
I live in Wuppertal and saw a group of these guys. They were pretty nice to the people and only tried to start a dialouge. They weren't aggressive or punished people for what they were doing. They just tried to show others what they believe in. Jehovas and Christians are doing the same very thing here. I have no problem in what they're doing as long as they don't try to push people. Fun fact: There were a group of germans drinking, who were shouting "FUCK OFF" when they saw them.
[QUOTE=Butthurter;51411667]im probably an uneducated outsider with this kind of thing, but i think what most people are concerned about in general is when some aspects of sharia law is enforced against all muslims, indiscriminately in the case of a muslim that drinks or gambles in a more conservative state in malaysia, that person would be screwed theres always muslim women out there who dont always wear headscarves but have to do it when they visit these places, out of fear for being sued sharia law should be fine for people who want to follow it, but i feel like im speaking in a non-secular country so ive no clue what "sharia law implementation" is like elsewhere, but i feel it being a rule that every muslim has to abide by with no choice is just as bad as any other republican christian going out of their way to stop others from "doing wrong things"[/QUOTE] Sharia law has no legal authority in Western countries, and with good reason. It is not the same thing as state law, and is entirely voluntary. It would likely be handled by the religious leaders at specific mosques, or groups of mosques, meaning that if you want a less traditional/conservative application of Sharia law, you can join a more progressive mosque, or simply practice your faith outside of a mosque and follow your own interpretation of Sharia.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51415965]They didnt break any law. Nobody here agrees with what they are doing. There is a line between disagreement and illegal. [editline]23rd November 2016[/editline] You can, should IDK but you are free to do so. Am I missing something? Nobody here disagrees with criticizing these people. They just did nothing illegal. [editline]23rd November 2016[/editline] There is no police patch. "Polizei" isnt written over it (Nobody living here would think a "Shariah Police" vest is official) and the [URL="http://hitchwiki.org/en/images/en/thumb/0/0f/Bundespolizei_AT_Warnweste_rueckenansicht.jpg/250px-Bundespolizei_AT_Warnweste_rueckenansicht.jpg"]color is off[/URL]. There is no mistakable resemblance at all. Objectively, it is clear that vests dont carry any purpose of impersonating an actual police officer.[/QUOTE] One of them is on trial for supporting terrorism. They technically haven't broken law until proven guilty, but knowing Germany they don't mess around with terrorism especially in times like now, where any wrong move can label the police/lawyers/judges as racist, which means there exists high chance the terrorist supporter is guilty.
[QUOTE=Fourier;51416348]One of them is on trial for supporting terrorism. They technically haven't broken law until proven guilty, but knowing Germany they don't mess around with terrorism especially in times like now, where any wrong move can label the police/lawyers/judges as racist, which means there exists high chance the terrorist supporter is guilty.[/QUOTE] Offering material support to terrorist organizations is illegal, and it's good he's being prosecuted for that if substantial evidence exists to confirm the link. The specific charge of wearing "Sharia Police" vests and telling people on the street that drinking and gambling is immoral is not illegal, however. You can't arrest a guy just for trying to convert people to his faith.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51409674]I'm so glad impersonating a police officer and practicing law without a license are illegal here. But hopefully we won't have to arrest people for that in the first place.[/QUOTE] Surprise, surprise. It's illegal in Germany too. Punishable with up to two years in prison. You can't put people in prison for wearing vests.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51416493]Israel has Sharia courts. [url]http://www.justice.gov.il/En/Units/ShariaCourts/Pages/default.aspx[/url] [editline]23rd November 2016[/editline] I dont know what you call this. Urban legend? Blatant lie? Propaganda? This is a country that raided 100 mosques a few weeks ago and banned and banished a religious organization. [editline]23rd November 2016[/editline] I am sick of this narrative honestly. This country punishes terrrorists and hate speech. It doesnt punish Muslims, and it doesnt punish until proven guilty. That is the bottom line. No "racism fear" or "pandering to minorities" crap here. If anything, minorities are under more flak than before with the rise of AfD. Dont know anything about Sweden, but dont bring that rhetoric to threads about Germany.[/QUOTE] Yes, and those Sharia courts cannot override the laws of the country itself. They are used to settle personal disputes, marriage and divorce terms, inheritance, custody, etc. They also, obviously, only apply to voluntary Muslim participants. From your source: [quote] Marriages - Proof of marriage, annulment of marriage, ratification of marriage, bride prices and dowries. Divorce - Proof of divorce, arbitration, separation and dissolution of marriage. Maintenance - Wife, son, father and grandfather. Legal capacity and guardianship. Custody of children - visitation and accommodation arrangements. Genealogy of children - paternity. Administration of assets belonging to missing and legally incompetent persons. Compliance - reconciliation. Wakf - religious endowments. Prevention of domestic violence - Prevention of Domestic Violence Law, 5751-1991. Conversion of religion to Islam - Religious Community (Conversion) Ordinance. Financial relationships between spouses - Financial Relationships between Spouses Law, 5733-1973. Inheritance - Inheritance Law, 5725-1965.[/quote] They're voluntary and limited in scope. Even still, I would personally argue that this might be a bit too far, but we are speaking of Israel, which is considered one of the major cradles of religion, so I suppose it's to be somewhat expected. Within a Western country, I am fine with sharia courts being established within certain mosques or groups of mosques for the purposes of mediating disputes between members, handling marriages and divorces, etc. Obviously they should have no legal authority over the laws of the country itself, meaning they can't rule to stone an adulterer to death as so many posters here would have you fear, and that any rulings they do pass down would have no relevance for non-participants and non-Muslims, and that the voluntary participants could still challenge the rulings in an actual court of law should they refuse to honor the ruling. IE- Sharia law in Western nations is fine, so long as it does not actively oppose state law and has no official bearing in state courts, doesn't apply to non-voluntary participants, and doesn't touch [I]criminal[/I] law.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51416552]My point was that a civil Sharia court operated by sane people is the same as a civil Druze, Christian or Rabbinic court. There is nothing inherently evil about Islam, Sharia or anything similar. People are evil.[/QUOTE] Ah, I take your point. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm trying to get at, too.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51414110]Yes, everybody in this thread knew Sven sent nightvision goggles to terrorists and they defended it, knowingly. You got that right. [/QUOTE] It amuses me that you cherry pick parts of posts and have to make silly statements to try to put your point across, Sven is a terrorist sympathiser and an islamic fundamentalist and anyone who defends his actions imo are wrong. This incident isn't as isolated or innocent as it is made out to be.
[QUOTE=Fourier;51416348]One of them is on trial for supporting terrorism. They technically haven't broken law until proven guilty, but knowing Germany they don't mess around with terrorism especially in times like now, where [B]any wrong move can label the police/lawyers/judges as racist[/B], which means there exists high chance the terrorist supporter is guilty.[/QUOTE][emphasis mine] It's the opposite, actually: - Our police here constantly gets labelled as being not hard enough on foreigners by certain very vocal groups, for doing their job and not overly quickly releasing information on the identity of foreign perpetrators (which isn't customary in Germany in [I]any[/I] case due to privacy laws. The most that is usually revealed are gender and approximate age of those involved in a crime, though the police will issue corrections against rumours if necessary). I'm honestly impressed our police keeps doing a decent job in this regard despite being metaphorically screamed at by multiple groups lately. - I don't remember a single case where a lawyer was labelled as racist. Prosecutors here normally are in far more danger if they order investigations against the press, especially if those journalists are under scrutiny for revealing malpractice or secrets of the state revealed by a whistleblower. The last one who did this lost his position in less than a month if I'm not mistaken, and even the main state media published a few editorials accusing the prosecution of unjustly hindering freedom of the press. (Not sure how clear this is abroad, but the German media on average still functions pretty well and the state media here is known for [I]not[/I] spewing propaganda. In fact it's split into regional broadcast providers and we have fairly strict regulations in place precisely to prevent that.) - Some overly zealous feminists tried to label (I think defence-)attorneys as sexist in a recent privacy violation/rape case, but that was mostly shot down because this place rarely engages in widespread knee-jerk reactions. It could have been against the prosecutors in the resulting false accusation case though; I didn't follow it that closely. Point being: Attorneys here sometimes get accused of something, but it's usually not of being racist or anything relating to that as far as high-profile issues go. - There was exactly one recent scandal/issue involving judges that I remember, and that was because they went after a judge in a lower office because he highlighted and by himself fixed a huge issue in ghetto pension proceedings (which of course didn't look great on his superiors). That said, there was indeed a recent scandal with police officers letting their preconceptions about immigrants hinder an investigation. [I]This directly lead to multiple people being murdered by neo-nazis despite some evidence already being available.[/I] You understand why it's a huge deal when an issue like this is uncovered, right? Normally I'd understand how you could get the wrong impression because people keep smearing this country on English-language online platforms, but other users (myself included) have pointed this out to you multiple times already in other threads. At this point you'd have to actively seek out that misinformation to repeat it here, so I'm going with both 'propaganda' and 'blatant lying' here as far as categorising your post goes. Seriously, it's pretty infuriating. We have enough actual issues, so we don't need anyone spreading fake ones in addition to that :glare:
Sounds like they were just doing community policing type of stuff.
If someone wearing that came up to me, trying to preach what I am doing is against their laws, or their silly god, I'd laugh it off and tell them to shove it up their arse. I don't think Sharia police is exactly the best way to try and get awareness for your religion in a 1st world country, or 3rd world. Whichever Germany is now.
[QUOTE=Covalent;51418002]I don't think Sharia police is exactly the best way to try and get awareness for your religion in a 1st world country, or 3rd world. [B]Whichever Germany is now.[/B][/QUOTE] Wow, I didn't know my country was that bad to live in.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51416493]Israel has Sharia courts. [url]http://www.justice.gov.il/En/Units/ShariaCourts/Pages/default.aspx[/url] [editline]23rd November 2016[/editline] I dont know what you call this. Urban legend? Blatant lie? Propaganda? This is a country that raided 100 mosques a few weeks ago and banned and banished a religious organization. [editline]23rd November 2016[/editline] I am sick of this narrative honestly. This country punishes terrrorists and hate speech. It doesnt punish Muslims, and it doesnt punish until proven guilty. That is the bottom line. No "racism fear" or "pandering to minorities" crap here. If anything, minorities are under more flak than before with the rise of AfD. Dont know anything about Sweden, but dont bring that rhetoric to threads about Germany.[/QUOTE] Germany media/police has cases of covering-up migrant crimes (and some neo-nazis). Also I know Germany did that raid, this is why I said the police force doesn't mess around but when they do something, they do it with strong reason (so media really can't call them racist/islamophobe, get my point now?)
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.