Gun retailers stop selling guns and ammo to police

[Shadaez]

[QUOTE=Ericson666;39695747]Well, considering the restrictions are probably already putting pressure on them financially, it seems really risky to ignore your biggest customers[/QUOTE]

pretty sure all these new laws have done is increase gun sales since everyone thinks they'll be taken away by obama

[lordcrypto]

[QUOTE=TheSporeGA;39697688]Just because your country was idiotic enough to have a knee-jerk reaction to ban firearms instead of figuring out and solving the problems, doesn't mean that WE should have to.[/QUOTE]
so you are saying that a comprehensive plan, including mental health, reducing number of guns available, and decreasing poverty rates wouldn't help

(btw, violent crimes/poverty are kinda a loop)

[Rusty100]

[QUOTE=TheSporeGA;39697693]But assault weapon deaths are a very small majority, what are you even talking about[/QUOTE]

Who's talking just about assault weapons
I'm talking about all guns. We didn't just ban assault weapons.

[butre]

[QUOTE=Rusty100;39697691]Yeah it was so idiotic to totally cripple fire arm deaths.
That was really dumb of us! If only we had paid more attention to america, we could have more gun-related murders than ever![/QUOTE]

aren't you australian? you know you guys have more guns now than you did before the "buyback", right?

[TheSporeGA]

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;39697698]so you are saying that a comprehensive plan, including mental health, reducing number of guns available, and decreasing poverty rates wouldn't help

(btw, violent crimes/poverty are kinda a loop)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]instead of figuring out and solving the problems[/QUOTE]

[editline]24th February 2013[/editline]

[QUOTE=Rusty100;39697700]Who's talking just about assault weapons
I'm talking about all guns. We didn't just ban assault weapons.[/QUOTE]

But self-defence weapons have saved many lives

[Craig Willmore]

the same people who believe police are the only ones who have the training and need to use guns in this thread are the same ones who decry police at any opportunity other ones?

can we have a little consistency please fp

[Rusty100]

[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;39697701]aren't you australian? you know you guys have more guns now than you did before the "buyback", right?[/QUOTE]

That's just factually incorrect by the way

[editline]24th February 2013[/editline]

[QUOTE=TheSporeGA;39697712][editline]24th February 2013[/editline]

But self-defence weapons have saved many lives[/QUOTE]

Lives that could have been saved if neither parties had guns in the first place - and if your attacker doesn't have a gun, and you do, that's excessive force.

[Craig Willmore]

[QUOTE=Rusty100;39697718]That's just factually incorrect by the way

[editline]24th February 2013[/editline]

and if your attacker doesn't have a gun, and you do, that's excessive force.[/QUOTE]

person 1 has knife
person 2 has gun
person 1 attacks person 2 with knife
person 2 shoots person 1

in your mind person 2 was the one who used excessive force?

[quote]Lives that could have been saved if neither parties had guns in the first place [/quote]

yes murder did not exist before the advent of the firearm.

[TheSporeGA]

[QUOTE=Rusty100;39697718]
Lives that could have been saved if neither parties had guns in the first place[/QUOTE]

Someone who's going to break the law probably won't care that they have to break the law to get a gun off the black market.

[editline]24th February 2013[/editline]

Plus I never understood excessive force. Someone could easily kill you with a knife why don't you have the right to take them down with a gun? Because otherwise you'd probably die. Do they expect you to get another knife and duel the person to death?

[Rusty100]

[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;39697740]person 1 has knife
person 2 has gun
person 1 attacks person 2 with knife
person 2 shoots person 1

in your mind person 2 was the one who used excessive force?
[/QUOTE]
not just in my eyes. in the eyes of the law. dunno about america though! they are pretty backwards.

[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;39697740]
yes murder did not exist before the advent of the firearm.
[/QUOTE]
excuse me, sorry? yes, of course murder existed, nobody said otherwise. i said guns make it a lot easier. and increase the success rate of murder attempts. you have a higher chance of surviving, say, a knife attack, than you do a gun attack. because a knife requires very close distance. a gun doesn't. a knife requires physical knowledge of how to use it properly, or the victim may be able to avoid a slash. a gun just requires you pointing it at someone from a distance and pulling a trigger.

[editline]24th February 2013[/editline]

[QUOTE=TheSporeGA;39697741]
Plus I never understood excessive force.[/QUOTE]

[Craig Willmore]

[QUOTE=Rusty100;39697757]not just in my eyes. in the eyes of the law. dunno about america though! they are pretty backwards.[/quote]

Rusty ~ "Yes you are being stabbed to death but you cannot kill your attacker because that would be excessive"

[quote]
excuse me, sorry? yes, of course murder existed, nobody said otherwise. i said guns make it a lot easier.[/QUOTE]

Of course they make it easier? If someone wants to kill someone, they will find a way to kill someone, stopping one avenue of attack does not stop the motive.

[lordcrypto]

dammit rusty

you stole my line about knives vs guns

killing someone with a knife either requires you to know how to do it, or lucky

gun? bang bang dead

[Craig Willmore]

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;39697776]dammit rusty

you stole my line about knives vs guns

killing someone with a knife either requires you to know how to do it, or lucky

gun? bang bang dead[/QUOTE]

watch like 3 youtube videos and practice stabbing a tree and become good enough to kill someone with a knife. Edged weapons have killed hundreds of thousands of people, it's not some mystical aliensque weapon that requires expert skill and knowledge to use.

conversely you do need to train with a gun to use it effectively.

[Timebomb575]

[QUOTE=Rusty100;39697757]not just in my eyes. in the eyes of the law. dunno about america though! [/QUOTE]

Wait what

So in Australia you arent allowed to shoot someone if they attack you with a knife? What are you supposed to do? Engage them in hand to hand combat in a fair and gentlemanly fashion?

[QueenSasha24]

[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;39697799]conversely you do need to train with a gun to use it effectively.[/QUOTE]

And you also must consider how guns are *not* these magical one-hit-kill weapons that can kill a person anywhere you shoot them in one second. It's generally considered normal in a self-defense situation to need to put 3-5 rounds into them to actually kill an attacker. (For a handgun anyway)

[Raidyr]

[QUOTE=Timebomb575;39697815]Wait what

So in Australia you arent allowed to shoot someone if they attack you with a knife? What are you supposed to do? Engage them in hand to hand combat in a fair and gentlemanly fashion?[/QUOTE]

You just have to remember what the Boss taught you about CQC and you should be fine.

[butre]

[QUOTE=Rusty100;39697757]not just in my eyes. in the eyes of the law. dunno about america though! they are pretty backwards.[/QUOTE]

so the criminal is given free-reign over your life and you call us backwards? get out of here with that shit

[King Tiger]

[QUOTE=Rusty100;39695967]Oh, yeah, good idea, stop selling them to the only people who actually need them.[/QUOTE]

But many cops in the U.K. don't even have guns. Maybe U.S. cops can follow their lead.

[DaCommie1]

[QUOTE=Rusty100;39697718]That's just factually incorrect by the way

[editline]24th February 2013[/editline]

Lives that could have been saved if neither parties had guns in the first place - and if your attacker doesn't have a gun, and you do, that's excessive force.[/QUOTE]

Actually, no, it's completely correct, there are more guns in Australia now than before the buyback, and the buyback, as I showed earlier, accomplished nothing except making it easier to assault or rape someone and make it less dangerous to break into someone's home, threaten them with death, and steal their shit. Your country did nothing but enable criminals and your narrow-minded, bigoted, ignorant, and downright dangerous viewpoint will only seek to make more people become needless victims of violent crime because you took away their ability to defend themselves because you have an unfounded and irrational fear of the tool they use to protect themselves, which has developed due to narrow minded ignorance and lies.

Go actually look up the facts instead of just believing everything John Howard told you, gun control doesn't work. It never has, and it never will. There will always be a black market, and Australia was one of the places most recently to have been found to have illegal firearms manufacturing going on, so no, even with strict bans people will still make guns for criminals, because there is still a demand for them. Banning guns will not accomplish anything except making the population of any given country easy targets for muggers, robbers, murderers, and rapists, and all you're doing is enabling these criminals by taking the tools people need to defend themselves away from honest citizens.

[GarrettFox]

[QUOTE=Rusty100;39697673]Gosh dude I guess you're right! It's not already easy enough for people to kill eachother. We should make it even easier! Let's issue every household with a Kill-Tron 5000! The ultimate in killing efficiency! But of couse, that won't have any effect on death rates. I mean, how could better murdering tools reflect more successful murders? They're just for self defence! They're a right! We have the right to be able to take eachothers lives as easily and problem free as possible! I mean, it's not like restricting their access to these Kill-Trons would help neighbourhoods become better places. Obviously the way to make America as safe as possible is to make sure everyone is in tip-top murdering shape with the best murder-hardware necessary! I mean, what kind of world would it be if almost nobody owned one of these Kill-Trons? I say, how would people be able to defend themselves against others who also don't have a Kill-Tron? They could come at eachother with knives and rocks for gosh sake! How barbaric.

I mean, it's not like restricting firearms sales would decrease the supply and demand! Meaning less guns were being manufactured, meaning less guns would be on the black market, meaning less guns even in the hands of criminals! That doesn't make any sense! I mean, it's not like most murders are done on a whim, because access to firearms is so readily available! Why would we want to make it harder and give people more time to reflect and cool down before they go on a murder spree with incredible ease and efficiency that we made available to them? That's just nonsense.

What we should do is just give everyone as many guns as possible. Because that has proven to be very successful thus far.

That'll solve our problems.

- America.[/QUOTE]

Your argument would hold much more weight if Australia didn't lose to the United States in almost every major category of crime.

[url]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_vic-crime-assault-victims[/url]
[url]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_vic-crime-rape-victims[/url]
[url]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pro_cri_vic-crime-property-victims[/url]
[url]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_vic-crime-robbery-victims[/url]

Really just overall you are significantly less likely to be a victim of any crime inside the United States.

[url]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_vic-crime-total-victims[/url]

Yes, you are more likely to be murdered within the United States. Which, statistically, remains ridiculously rare even with the numbers inside the United States. The chances of being a victim of basically any other crime? Significant reduced by comparison.

The US has its issues, but so does Australia. While I like Australia's attempts at things like restorative justice, rather than a simple punitive system like the United States, your nation, no matter how much you care to stretch the numbers, is not safer.

[scout1]

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;39697862]Actually, no, it's completely correct, there are more guns in Australia now than before the buyback, and the buyback, as I showed earlier, accomplished nothing except making it easier to assault or rape someone and make it less dangerous to break into someone's home, threaten them with death, and steal their shit. Your country did nothing but enable criminals and your narrow-minded, bigoted, ignorant, and downright dangerous viewpoint will only seek to make more people become needless victims of violent crime because you took away their ability to defend themselves because you have an unfounded and irrational fear of the tool they use to protect themselves, which has developed due to narrow minded ignorance and lies.

Go actually look up the facts instead of just believing everything John Howard told you, gun control doesn't work. It never has, and it never will. There will always be a black market, and Australia was one of the places most recently to have been found to have illegal firearms manufacturing going on, so no, even with strict bans people will still make guns for criminals, because there is still a demand for them. Banning guns will not accomplish anything except making the population of any given country easy targets for muggers, robbers, murderers, and rapists, and all you're doing is enabling these criminals by taking the tools people need to defend themselves away from honest citizens.[/QUOTE]

This is so horrible I hardly know where to start but let me try:

There are other ways to defend yourself besides guns

Let's see: "narrowminded" "ignorance" "Lies" "irrational" "bigoted" "ignorant" "narrow-minded"

"Gun control doesn't work" -You should probably tell that to the neoconservatives who scream "Hitler took the guns! Mussolini took the guns!" etc. Gun control sure appears to have worked there.

"Black market" The magical black market which I am sure you can explain in detail how it works

Illegal firearms manufacturing, irrelevant statement about demand while ignoring supply. Apparently it's possible to reduce SOME illicit activities to 0? No, of course not. But that's what you're strawmanning.

And then an appeal to emotion about how people are completely powerless without firearms.

[butre]

[QUOTE=scout1;39697927]This is so horrible I hardly know where to start but let me try:

There are other ways to defend yourself besides guns

Let's see: "narrowminded" "ignorance" "Lies" "irrational" "bigoted" "ignorant" "narrow-minded"

"Gun control doesn't work" -You should probably tell that to the neoconservatives who scream "Hitler took the guns! Mussolini took the guns!" etc. Gun control sure appears to have worked there.

"Black market" The magical black market which I am sure you can explain in detail how it works

Illegal firearms manufacturing, irrelevant statement about demand while ignoring supply. Apparently it's possible to reduce SOME illicit activities to 0? No, of course not. But that's what you're strawmanning.

And then an appeal to emotion about how people are completely powerless without firearms.[/QUOTE]

in the case of hitler and mussolini though they just murdered all the people who didn't immediately give up their guns

[FunnyBunny]

[QUOTE=squids_eye;39695673]Wouldn't it make more sense to not sell to politicians? The police don't make the laws, they just have to enforce them.[/QUOTE]

I don't see how you expect to change anything by refusing to sell a gun to an anti-gun politician.

[DaCommie1]

Yes, I'm the one straw manning and being overly emotional and irrational when I'm being called a murderer by someone who ignores facts and counter arguments simply because of the property I own.
[QUOTE=scout1;39697927]
"Gun control doesn't work" -You should probably tell that to the neoconservatives who scream "Hitler took the guns! Mussolini took the guns!" etc. Gun control sure appears to have worked there.
[/QUOTE]
So are you then validating the assertion made by these people that the main intention of gun control is not public safety, but civil disarmament for the support of government tyranny? Because that's the only way gun control "worked" in either of those cases.

[scout1]

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;39697984]They are often horribly ineffective in comparison to a gun and often are unreliable. [/QUOTE]

So we could reduce violent crime by removing illegal guns you say...

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;39697984]
Those arguments are ridiculous and don't help your point at all. Nazi Germany and its allies ran authoritarian police states, it worked because they had complete power said states and weren't afraid of disposing of those that got in their way. [/QUOTE]

You do realize we have law enforcement, yes? They've been quite effective in the past.

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;39697984]
People have guns, illegal or not and they trade them illegally.
[/QUOTE]

And each step along the way is a major hurdle, moreso if we make it that way. The 'Black Market' as it exists in popular myth on FP doesn't exist. It's a very morbid, difficult affair.

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;39697984]
Missing the point, of course we can't reduce X action to 0 no matter what we do. The thing is though, when you're compromising between shitting on rights with achieving Y goal and using tax payer money to do so, it tends to be shot down when the results don't overcome the sacrifice. [/QUOTE]

Yet we compromise greater rights every day for lesser result, not that you've laid out any prediction for how effective it will be.

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;39697984]
Hypocrisy. You're straw-manning him, he never said anyone was powerless without firearms and it's not an appeal to emotion.[/QUOTE]

No. That is an emotional argument. Let me demonstrate.

"Banning guns will not accomplish anything except making the population of any given country easy targets for muggers, robbers, murderers, and rapists, and all you're doing is enabling these criminals by taking the tools people need to defend themselves away from honest citizens."

It starts off by saying "It doesn't work." Not the various reasons it wouldn't work, not a concise conclusion, a dismissal. Then it segues into various violent crimes in increasing intensity in an attempt to elicit emotion. Then blanket statements such as "criminals" and "honest citizens", the latter of which is simply attempt to capitalize on the feelings of disgust that should be generated from the first parts of the sentence. There's not a fact in there. It's just an exaggerated way to tell someone else how disgusting they are.

[Disotrtion]

[QUOTE=scout1;39697927]This is so horrible I hardly know where to start but let me try:[/QUOTE]
off to a great start
[QUOTE]There are other ways to defend yourself besides guns[/QUOTE]
ok but people still choose to use guns for self defense. Its a free country, of course they don't have too, but they choose too. There's a reason no one chooses "non-lethal" means to defend themselves, its unreliable and there is no guarantee of stopping an attacker or intruder.
[QUOTE]Let's see: "narrowminded" "ignorance" "Lies" "irrational" "bigoted" "ignorant" "narrow-minded"[/QUOTE]
yes those are nouns and adjectives. idk what are you saying here
[QUOTE]"Gun control doesn't work" -You should probably tell that to the neoconservatives who scream "Hitler took the guns! Mussolini took the guns!" etc. Gun control sure appears to have worked there.[/QUOTE]
Strawman up the ass, who cares what the neocons think? Is DaCommie1 a neocon? No. What are you doing here.
[QUOTE]"Black market" The magical black market which I am sure you can explain in detail how it works[/QUOTE]
yes so mystical.....wait its a major problem in several of our major cities where handguns are banned but still frequently used. Maybe Chicago PD could tell you more about the black market seeing as they combat it every day. And even Australia has a black market in firearms, there are hundreds of thousands of illegal guns in circulation, illegal weapons flow in Australia from around the world.
[URL="http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/internal-rivalry-among-comancheros-led-to-gunfight-at-paesano-restaurant-police/story-e6frea83-1226226914996"]http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/internal-rivalry-among-comancheros-led-to-gunfight-at-paesano-restaurant-police/story-e6frea83-1226226914996[/URL]
[URL="http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-27/police-fight-growing-source-of-illicit-weapons/3976354"]http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-27/police-fight-growing-source-of-illicit-weapons/3976354[/URL]
[QUOTE]Illegal firearms manufacturing, irrelevant statement about demand while ignoring supply. Apparently it's possible to reduce SOME illicit activities to 0? No, of course not. But that's what you're strawmanning.[/QUOTE]
Except there will always be a demand, if with a demand people will find a way to supply. If there's a profit to made, people will risk it. It's happening in Australia right now. Even other countries with strict gun control have gun crime.
[QUOTE]And then an appeal to emotion about how people are completely powerless without firearms.[/QUOTE]
powerless? Who said anything about power? He said [I]defenseless[/I]. Fighting off a mugger, rapist or home intruder isn't easy if you are unarmed, especially if they are armed with a knife, or even worse, a gun.

[scout1]

[QUOTE=Disotrtion;39698055]off to a great start
[/QUOTE]

u 2

[QUOTE=Disotrtion;39698055]
ok but people still choose to use guns for self defense. Its a free country, of course they don't have too, but they choose too. There's a reason no one chooses "non-lethal" means to defend themselves, its unreliable and there is no guarantee of stopping an attacker or intruder.
[/QUOTE]

Guns are a guarantee of self-defense? Yeah, haha...

[QUOTE=Disotrtion;39698055
yes those are nouns and adjectives. idk what are you saying here
[/QUOTE]

Yeah I dunno, why don't I just call you narrow-minded (twice), ignorant (twice), and full of lies and that'll be just a-okay, right

[QUOTE=Disotrtion;39698055]
Strawman up the ass, who cares what the neocons think? Is DaCommie1 a neocon? No. What are you doing here.
[/QUOTE]

One of the most commonly cited pro-gun arguments, why not shoot it down ahead of time?

[QUOTE=Disotrtion;39698055]
yes so mystical.....wait its a major problem in several of our major cities where handguns are banned but still frequently used. Maybe Chicago PD could tell you more about the black market seeing as they combat it every day. And even Australia has a black market in firearms, there are hundreds of thousands of illegal guns in circulation, illegal weapons flow in Australia from around the world.
[URL="http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/internal-rivalry-among-comancheros-led-to-gunfight-at-paesano-restaurant-police/story-e6frea83-1226226914996"]http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/internal-rivalry-among-comancheros-led-to-gunfight-at-paesano-restaurant-police/story-e6frea83-1226226914996[/URL]
[URL="http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-27/police-fight-growing-source-of-illicit-weapons/3976354"]http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-27/police-fight-growing-source-of-illicit-weapons/3976354[/URL]
[/QUOTE]

Congratulations you've searched for the news. Now explain to me in your own words how the "Black Market" works. Then go read up on how the normal market works.

[QUOTE=Disotrtion;39698055]
Except there will always be a demand, if with a demand people will find a way to supply. If there's a profit to made, people will risk it. It's happening in Australia right now. Even other countries with strict gun control have gun crime.
[/QUOTE]

We've established this 3 times now, sir. Nobody's doubting there will always be someone doing something against the law, but that doesn't mean we tear the law down.

[QUOTE=Disotrtion;39698055]
powerless? Who said anything about power? He said [I]defenseless[/I]. Fighting off a mugger, rapist or home intruder isn't easy if you are unarmed, especially if they are armed with a knife, or even worse, a gun.[/QUOTE]

Semantics.

So we've armed every home owner with a gun.

Ah.

Well. Now all the criminals have guns. All of them.

You've certainly improved your odds of getting someone killed. Not sure you've improved the self-defense rate.

[Nitro836]

Protest lack of safety by denying police from protecting your safety.

PROTEST LOGIC!

[Fetret]

I think this is a great idea. They as owners can obviously do whatever they want and this is a great non-violent protest of a law they do not agree with. It is fun to see people who usually defend free-speech in any situation come to this thread and call these guys ignorant and idiotic. They are exercising their right to protest and in a very interesting way.

I feel like I am leaning towards more gun registration but less control in this whole issue (so as long as it is properly registered, taxed and documented people should be able to buy pretty much anything, with a few restrictions obviously), not because of the whole armed revolution or security thing, but simply because guns are cool and fun. I don't mind sounding like a 12 year old, I have been to the range a few times, done some skeet shooting and some sport air rifle shooting and I can personally say it is great fun to shoot a gun and if people can actually afford rifles etc... then more power to them.

[Ishwoo]

I think the fact that you need guns for protection shows how bad the crime is in the US. There's like no other country in the world where innocent people need a gun because they're so likely to have their house broken into or be assaulted. South Africa is maybe the only other one I can think of