• Terrorists achieve military superiority over Ukraine
    109 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sableye;47201467]the taliban are terrorists, al nusra are terrorists, ISIS are terrorists, what makes these guys any different because they're slavic they can't be terrorists? the modern definition of a rebel force is terrorism, so why are we too hasty to give them the label they deserve[/QUOTE] They're not terrorists as they are not terrorizing people for the sake of creating fear. They're a force trying to separate from the main government. By your definition, every war is fought by terrorists and against terrorists.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47199857]Ukrainian military is mostly outgunned by it's own incompetence. It was one of the strongest militaries in Europe. It couldn't be overrun by a small amount of Russian troops. I say small amount because you can't manage a big force while keeping it undercover. I would say if Ukrainian army had a real thing to fight for, didn't send recruits to die for no reason, didn't alienate population and soldiers by killing innocents, didn't have fearmongering politicians that [b]need the war to keep going to get loans[/b] as their commanders, rebels would stand no chance. Ukraine was totally capable of protecting itself. It's not like they needed US weapons or NATO support to do it. Good news, I want their government to change. Anything is better than what's now.[/QUOTE] ya at least yankyuvich's government spent the military's money on lavish houses and cars and the navy's money on his floating restaurant ukraine has never been high on the list of strong militaries, they have never had the money post-soviet union to field anything but enough troops to keep the peace. they spend 1/10th of what russia does and amazingly their forces are 1/10th as strong as a tide of russian advanced armor, missiles, and tons of artillery [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47201478]They're not terrorists as they are not terrorizing people for the sake of creating fear. They're a force trying to separate from the main government. By your definition, every war is fought by terrorists and against terrorists.[/QUOTE] its the modern definition, the taliban didn't terrorise people for the sake of fear, their ultimate goal was control of afghanistan and a caliphate, which they did for a while there. i'm just pointing out the hypocricy of today's terrorism label in that groups doing exactly the same thing in other regions are terrorists while this one isn't because they're white. if half the stories about the rebel controlled towns are to be believed, they've done the same things the taliban and al nusra have done, but they aren't considered terrorists because they're eurasians
[QUOTE=Sableye;47201482] its the modern definition, the taliban didn't terrorise people for the sake of fear, their ultimate goal was control of afghanistan and a caliphate, which they did for a while there. i'm just pointing out the hypocricy of today's terrorism label in that groups doing exactly the same thing in other regions are terrorists while this one isn't because they're white[/QUOTE] Except there isn't a hypocrisy here, you're just outright wrong.
[QUOTE=Sableye;47201482] ...its the modern definition...[/QUOTE] By your definition the US military is the worlds largest terrorist organization.
[QUOTE=Sableye;47201482] ukraine has never been high on the list of strong militaries, they have never had the money post-soviet union to field anything but enough troops to keep the peace. [/QUOTE] It's not about the money. They just got a good bunch of soviet military after the Soviet Union's dissolution. Like, a really big and high-quality bunch, since lots of ussr's best troops had been massed in it's western regions when the country broke up. So, they actually had a pretty strong army once.
[QUOTE=Sableye;47201482]ya at least yankyuvich's government spent the military's money on lavish houses and cars and the navy's money on his floating restaurant ukraine has never been high on the list of strong militaries, they have never had the money post-soviet union to field anything but enough troops to keep the peace. they spend 1/10th of what russia does and amazingly their forces are 1/10th as strong as a tide of russian advanced armor, missiles, and tons of artillery [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] [/QUOTE] Could you please name one advanced weapon rebels have that Ukrainians don't?
[QUOTE=joshuadim;47200723]hahaha jesus christ has the past couple days brought out all the brainwashed russians?[/QUOTE] Just because he's showing a different point of view doesn't mean BRAINWASHED PUTIN RUSSIAN Ukrainian army truly is fucked primarily due to their officers. The equipment in use by the Ukrainian military isn't complete shit, but the issue is that none of it is actually being supplied properly. Soldiers are willing to fight (and would do damn well at that) but they haven't got the equipment in their hands to do so due to the corruption from the military commanders and officers. If Ukraine didn't have a problem with corruption, and troops actually received weapons, equipment, and vehicles, they would not be having this much trouble against the rebels. [img]http://i.imgur.com/aVuiCXu.jpg[/img] This is coming from someone who actually lives in Ukraine. [url]http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2014/05/how-corruption-guts-militaries-ukraine-case-study/84646/[/url] [quote]Commanders took to “using military equipment, infrastructure, and…personnel [to] build private houses, [or] make repairs in their apartments.” Procurement fraud was rife, as were bribes to get into and through military academies, and for desirable assignments[/quote] [quote]The results have been on display for the past two months: helicopters and armored vehicles immobile for lack of fuel or missing parts; soldiers in Crimea turning in their uniforms for promises of a Russian salary five times the paltry $200 per month Ukraine was paying. Ordinary citizens donating some $2 million to the defense budget by texting 565 on their mobile phones. [/quote] [url]http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/21/corruption-eats-away-at-ukraine-military.html[/url] [quote]When the soldiers in the 12th Barttalion signed up to fight, they each were given a gun by the defense ministry. Nothing more. So their friends and families bought them everything else the men needed for battle. They collected money for helmets, bulletproof vests, medication and even vehicles. But much of that gear went missing from the warehouse before the Kiev unit ever saw action.[/quote] [quote]We saw all the ammunition in the depot; we saw the parcels full of gear that our friends sent us. But the equipment didn't reach us after we left for the combat operation,” [/quote] [quote]Sergei blames his officers for the thefts. And as he sees it they were scarcely more qualified than he was to lead a group of green soldiers into battle. “They were trained along with us—by volunteers. And they got their jobs because of people they knew,” he claimed.[/quote] [quote]Sergei's comrades there are still waiting for the armored personnel carriers promised by the defense ministry months ago, he says. Instead, the unit has received some rundown buses. The battalion also is short of ammunition, Sergei says, but he insists he would still like to return to battle. “If we had proper ammunition we could go on the attack and prevail within a week. They are mercenaries; we are fighting for our land. So we are unbeatable.”[/quote] [url]http://time.com/45253/ukraine-corruption-tymoshenko-kiev/[/url] [quote]veral Ukrainian websites started hawking American MREs by the caseload — and on the cheap — just as the U.S. government began delivering them to Ukraine as part of a nonlethal-military-aid package. It has been impossible to confirm whether this aid was simply taken out the backdoor of Ukrainian army warehouses and sold. Alexei Mazepa, a spokesman for Ukraine’s Defense Ministry, denies that this was going on. “The meals are safe and sound at our warehouses in Kiev,” he says. “They have not even been distributed to the bases yet.”[/quote] [quote]Ukraine’s ability to do that will depend on its willingness to root out flagrant and widespread government corruption, which was the main reason the country’s former President Viktor Yanukovych was overthrown in a revolution two months ago. “Nothing has really changed since then,” says Stefan Meister, a Ukraine expert at the European Council on Foreign Relations in Berlin. “We have no guarantees that this money will not go in other channels, as we’ve seen in the past. The system in Ukraine has not changed. We still have oligarchs in key positions.”[/quote] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t26Ekz1DHz0[/media] When there are [b]civilians[/b] giving supplies to the army, you know there is seriously something wrong with the supply and command of that army Also [quote]didn't alienate population and soldiers by killing innocents[/quote] Just because you don't see it in Western media, doesn't mean the Ukrainian army hasn't killed civilians due to shelling cities with artillery.
[QUOTE=Banhfunbags;47200647]good idea the russian government should take over ukraine because ukraine isn't a sovereign nation or anything. while we are at it, lets take over other governments too because their military isnt as good as the russian military[/QUOTE] I want the people to stop dying and living in poverty and dillusion. Ukraine currently has nothing but fear to show to their people. They had a lot of time to prepare projects of reforms and tell their people: here is what we are going to do with the economy, here's how you all get jobs again. Instead there is just fear, militarisation, absolute brainwashing. Seriously, they jail every journalist that says something thay don't like (Коцаба, Шарий ). Only thing they ever talk about is Russian aggresaion. When Poroshenko comes to EU he talks about nothing but Russian agression. They also burned people alive and showed it live on national TV and shelled cities with millions of people. Rebels so far shelled Mariupol, Ukrainian army shelled Lugansk and Donetsk for a year non stop, the cities are basically ruins now. Soverign nation my ass. More like soverign oligarchic dictatorship. I don't want this to exist, the craziness of them is miles away from russian craziness. So I choose the lesser evil, lesser for the people of Ukraine.
you've said propaganda works both ways before so I dunno why you believe most of that
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;47199578]I can understand why they're being overwhelmed by superior firepower. But why are the Ukrainian military leaders so shitty? Time and time again they've made the rebel commanders look like Hannibal incarnate, allowing themselves to become encircled and giving up ground left and right. They were going to allow ~6,000 troops be captured in Debaltseve before the individual unit commanders decided to leave on their own. I think supplying the government with weapons is off the table until we address this issue.[/QUOTE] Well they are inexperienced, seeing how Ukraine hasn't been in a war for a long time, and there's doubtless a whole lot of corruption among officers, with higher posts being attained through connections, bribes etc rather than skill. Not to mention the fact that the separatists are probably trained and/or led by vastly more experienced and knowledgeable veteran Russian commanders.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;47199578]I can understand why they're being overwhelmed by superior firepower. But why are the Ukrainian military leaders so shitty? Time and time again they've made the rebel commanders look like Hannibal incarnate, allowing themselves to become encircled and giving up ground left and right. They were going to allow ~6,000 troops be captured in Debaltseve before the individual unit commanders decided to leave on their own. I think supplying the government with weapons is off the table until we address this issue.[/QUOTE] What superior firepower? People keep repeating that, I don't get it. Are Russian AKs better than Ukrainian AKs? Russian Grads better than Ukrainian Grads?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47202320]Could you please name one advanced weapon rebels have that Ukrainians don't?[/QUOTE] Putin.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47202335] Soverign nation my ass. More like soverign oligarchic dictatorship.[/QUOTE] Pot calling kettle black, holy fuck
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;47202722]Pot calling kettle black, holy fuck[/QUOTE] Russia is nowhere near as bad.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47202776]Russia is nowhere near as bad.[/QUOTE] Putin's been in charge for the last 15 years. Who's the dictator again?
Ukraine military is in a very bad place. Ukraine Airforce lost half it's planes. In February alone, it said Pro-Russian separatists seized 77 armored troops carriers, 14 tanks and seven artillery canons and vehicles—a total of 98 military vehicles. Twelve thousand of Ukraine's 15,450 Navy personnel were based in Crimea, and the majority defected to Russia or resigned from military service. The fleet currently has 11 operational ships. Ukraine lost 51 ships to Russia as the majority were stationed in Crimea.
[QUOTE=Buck.;47202818]Putin's been in charge for the last 15 years. Who's the dictator again?[/QUOTE] Come to Russia, crush your fantasies about it. It's bad by your metrics, but Ukraine is much worse. Key point here is that without sanctions or anything Ukraine grivna to dollar rate is 1/35, all time low. it will be 1/50 by the end of this month. Russia has a working economy, Ukraine doesn't. Nothing is being done about it. You won't get jailed for waving a Ukraine flag in Russia. Just today a policewoman was fired in Ukraine for having a St. George tape - symbol of Soviet victory over nazis, lately a pro Russian symbol. Russia is nowhere near as bad. [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Buck.;47202818]Putin's been in charge for the last 15 years. Who's the dictator again?[/QUOTE] Constitution allows it. I don't like it, but he doesn't break any laws. Queen of England has been ruling for 62 years, who's the dictator now?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47202897]Come to Russia, crush your fantasies about it. It's bad by your metrics, but Ukraine is much worse. Key point here is that without sanctions or anything Ukraine grivna to dollar rate is 1/35, all time low. it will be 1/50 by the end of this month. Russia has a working economy, Ukraine doesn't. Nothing is being done about it. You won't get jailed for waving a Ukraine flag in Russia. Just today a policewoman was fired in Ukraine for having a St. George tape - symbol of Soviet victory over nazis, lately a pro Russian symbol. Russia is nowhere near as bad. [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] Constitution allows it. I don't like it, but he doesn't break any laws. Queen of England has been ruling for 62 years, who's the dictator now?[/QUOTE] That queen thing is a terrible example. Our government make the decisions, she is mainly just for show and tourists. Leaders go to her to confirm stuff but if she ever disagreed it would be done anyway. Your flag stuff is right though. Ukraine is a sad state of affairs.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;47200723]hahaha jesus christ has the past couple days brought out all the brainwashed russians?[/QUOTE] Brainwashed russians being opposed by brainwashed 'muricans. Nothing new [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Buck.;47202818]Putin's been in charge for the last 15 years. Who's the dictator again?[/QUOTE] lmao. Have you seen the opposition? Two are basically Russian version of USA Republicans up to 11, another one is a political clown and the last is another oligarch. Who do you pick? [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Araknid;47202332]Just because he's showing a different point of view doesn't mean BRAINWASHED PUTIN RUSSIAN Ukrainian army truly is fucked primarily due to their officers. The equipment in use by the Ukrainian military isn't complete shit, but the issue is that none of it is actually being supplied properly. Soldiers are willing to fight (and would do damn well at that) but they haven't got the equipment in their hands to do so due to the corruption from the military commanders and officers. Just because you don't see it in Western media, doesn't mean the Ukrainian army hasn't killed civilians due to shelling cities with artillery.[/QUOTE] A big thank you for restoring hope that not everyone "of the Western world" are such bigots.
[QUOTE=Explosions;47199422]"Terrorists" Why do people feel the need to do this? They are rebels fighting a war. What does calling them terrorists do?[/QUOTE] Being antinatoeu
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47202387]What superior firepower? People keep repeating that, I don't get it. Are Russian AKs better than Ukrainian AKs? Russian Grads better than Ukrainian Grads?[/QUOTE] Hahahaha Don't talk about military concepts if you don't know shit about them....because you'll end up eating dust harder than when Kari tried to show us how a Ukr. general said that there were no Russian troops in Ukraine.... EDIT: [QUOTE]Queen of England has been ruling for 62 years, who's the dictator now? [/QUOTE] I add: Nor political ones....
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47202897]Come to Russia, crush your fantasies about it. It's bad by your metrics, but Ukraine is much worse. Key point here is that without sanctions or anything Ukraine grivna to dollar rate is 1/35, all time low. it will be 1/50 by the end of this month. Russia has a working economy, Ukraine doesn't. Nothing is being done about it. You won't get jailed for waving a Ukraine flag in Russia. Just today a policewoman was fired in Ukraine for having a St. George tape - symbol of Soviet victory over nazis, lately a pro Russian symbol. Russia is nowhere near as bad. [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] Constitution allows it. I don't like it, but he doesn't break any laws. Queen of England has been ruling for 62 years, who's the dictator now?[/QUOTE] Jesus, you're hilarious. Are you sure you're not getting paid for this? Just look at Ukraine, they have just been through a reform of the government and are currently engaged in a fucking civil war. How is their economy going to be as good or better than Russia? Even if it wasn't for the war how could any ex-soviet union country going to compare to Russia in terms of economics. Have you looked at a map like ever? Russia is doing a really shitty job if you look at all the land and natural resources available to them. "You won't get jailed for waving Ukrainian flag in Russia" Maybe. But look the following up. "Pussy Riot", "Gay propaganda law" "Blasphemy law" and Putin's view of net neutrality. Also, nice job providing anecdotal evidence. "The Constitution of Russia limits the election of one person to the Presidency to two consecutive terms." No, Putin isn't obeying the constitution, he just found a loophole where he can get his puppet to keep his seat warm while his turn comes back around. Not to mention the fact that Putin and his buddy Medvedev increased the term to 6 years prior to 2012 elections to keep his seat a little while longer. Queen Elizabeth is a figurehead with relatively little power. There's a big difference between modern monarchies and dictatorships. Also if it was a jab at me, I'm not even British, I'm Lithuanian, I know all about Russian aggression. You're so delusional that I feel bad for you.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47202897]Constitution allows it. I don't like it, but he doesn't break any laws. Queen of England has been ruling for 62 years, who's the dictator now?[/QUOTE] If you write the laws yourself, sure you can legally stay in power for a long time: [QUOTE=Wikipedia]In September 2011, following a change in the law extending the presidential term from four years to six,[4] Putin announced that he would seek a third, non-consecutive term as President in the 2012 presidential election, an announcement which led to large-scale protests in many Russian cities. In March 2012 he won the election, which was criticized for procedural irregularities, and is serving a six-year term.[5][6][/QUOTE] You can even argue he was the one really in charge during Medvedev's presidency. Contrary to Putin, the queens and kings around Europe hold no real power. Don't kid yourself, Russia sucks. Ukraine might be worse, but at least it isn't trying to spread the reach of its suckage by annexing other nation's territory.
[QUOTE=Buck.;47203054]"The Constitution of Russia limits the election of one person to the Presidency to two consecutive terms." No, Putin isn't obeying the constitution, he just found a loophole where he can get his puppet to keep his seat warm while his turn comes back around. Not to mention the fact that Putin and his buddy Medvedev increased the term to 6 years prior to 2012 elections to keep his seat a little while longer.[/QUOTE] Haha this just reminded me of something. Take a look at Medvedev's Wikipedia infobox: [img]http://i.imgur.com/hvHi9fH.png[/img]
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47202335]I want the people to stop dying and living in poverty and dillusion. Ukraine currently has nothing but fear to show to their people. They had a lot of time to prepare projects of reforms and tell their people: here is what we are going to do with the economy, here's how you all get jobs again. Instead there is just fear, militarisation, absolute brainwashing. Seriously, they jail every journalist that says something thay don't like (Коцаба, Шарий ). Only thing they ever talk about is Russian aggresaion. When Poroshenko comes to EU he talks about nothing but Russian agression. They also burned people alive and showed it live on national TV and shelled cities with millions of people. Rebels so far shelled Mariupol, Ukrainian army shelled Lugansk and Donetsk for a year non stop, the cities are basically ruins now. Soverign nation my ass. More like soverign oligarchic dictatorship. I don't want this to exist, the craziness of them is miles away from russian craziness. So I choose the lesser evil, lesser for the people of Ukraine.[/QUOTE] Hey guys, guys, russia is not the bad guy here. guys. ukraine was doing a bad job at being a country, and we, russia, have taken it upon our rightious selves to correct that mistake. It is obvious to us, that they are doing things wrong so we just supported a rebel faction and took the land. guys we don't even have any troops in there, seriously guys believe us
[QUOTE=Buck.;47203054]Just look at Ukraine, they have just been through a reform of the government and are currently engaged in a fucking civil war. How is their economy going to be as good or better than Russia?[/QUOTE] Ukraines economy was garbage before yanukovych was removed and had been garbage for a long time
[QUOTE=Araknid;47203297]Ukraines economy was garbage before yanukovych was removed and had been garbage for a long time[/QUOTE] The point still stands. It's no reason for an invasion.
[QUOTE=Buck.;47203054]Jesus, you're hilarious. Are you sure you're not getting paid for this? Just look at Ukraine, they have just been through a reform of the government and are currently engaged in a fucking civil war. How is their economy going to be as good or better than Russia? Even if it wasn't for the war how could any ex-soviet union country going to compare to Russia in terms of economics. Have you looked at a map like ever? Russia is doing a really shitty job if you look at all the land and natural resources available to them. "You won't get jailed for waving Ukrainian flag in Russia" Maybe. But look the following up. "Pussy Riot", "Gay propaganda law" "Blasphemy law" and Putin's view of net neutrality. Also, nice job providing anecdotal evidence. "The Constitution of Russia limits the election of one person to the Presidency to two consecutive terms." No, Putin isn't obeying the constitution, he just found a loophole where he can get his puppet to keep his seat warm while his turn comes back around. Not to mention the fact that Putin and his buddy Medvedev increased the term to 6 years prior to 2012 elections to keep his seat a little while longer. Queen Elizabeth is a figurehead with relatively little power. There's a big difference between modern monarchies and dictatorships. Also if it was a jab at me, I'm not even British, I'm Lithuanian, I know all about Russian aggression. You're so delusional that I feel bad for you.[/QUOTE] "hold up buddy let me tell you thing or two about your own country and president" [quote] I'm Lithuanian, I know all about Russian aggression.[/quote] lol, so what if you're lithuanian? have you ever lived under communism? do you know what if it feels like to be forcefully displaced from your home? maybe some members of you family told you some stories, but at the end of the day you hold as much credibility on this subject as he does. being lithuanian or a any other baltic states citizen doesn't suddenly grant more weight to what you say. also, there [i]is[/i] a big difference between modern monarchies and dictatorships, just like there's also a really big difference between dictatorships and an authoritarian republics. [quote]Russia is doing a really shitty job if you look at all the land and natural resources available to them.[/quote] no actually, the bigger the country the harder it is the manage. you would understand this basic concept if you didn't think the world operates like an RTS game. there is more to building a nation than just natural resources and land. i didn't even know where to begin with this retarded and more importantly condescending post but i did my best
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47202335]I want the people to stop dying and living in poverty and dillusion. Ukraine currently has nothing but fear to show to their people. They had a lot of time to prepare projects of reforms and tell their people: here is what we are going to do with the economy, here's how you all get jobs again. Instead there is just fear, militarisation, absolute brainwashing. Seriously, they jail every journalist that says something thay don't like (Коцаба, Шарий ). Only thing they ever talk about is Russian aggresaion. When Poroshenko comes to EU he talks about nothing but Russian agression. They also burned people alive and showed it live on national TV and shelled cities with millions of people. Rebels so far shelled Mariupol, Ukrainian army shelled Lugansk and Donetsk for a year non stop, the cities are basically ruins now. Soverign nation my ass. More like soverign oligarchic dictatorship. I don't want this to exist, the craziness of them is miles away from russian craziness. So I choose the lesser evil, lesser for the people of Ukraine.[/QUOTE] I cannot even begin to express the irony in the fact that you keep saying that people are brainwashed and delusional, but the shitposts you belch out every time a ukraine or rusky thread come up are some flat-out whacko shit.
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;47203593]I cannot even begin to express the irony in the fact that you keep saying that people are brainwashed and delusional, but the shitposts you belch out every time a ukraine or rusky thread come up are some flat-out whacko shit.[/QUOTE] Point out the "shit" part of my posts. I want criticism, constructive criticism, which I believe you have because you wouldn't just throw an insult at me with nothing to back it up(right guys, right?).
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