[QUOTE=JIAC;20421450]:downs:[/QUOTE]
Yes, you certainly are a downy.
[QUOTE=Exploits;20415846] You can work long hours, seven days a week in Canada. Or you could go State-side and make the same value, or more, at 1/4 of the work.[/QUOTE]
I want my doctor to be one to help me, not make a profit. The prospect he cares more about his paycheck than my life is scary. That's their job, when they applied to be a doctor, they should've known helping people is one of their things to do.
I wanted to be a construction worker, I am, and I don't bitch about how hard it is. I took this job knowing that it isn't exactly the best paying job, but I accepted it because it's my tradition and I always wanted to build roofs over people's head instead of buying it.
Doctors in Canada shouldn't bitch, they should become doctors because they want to help people, not make money.
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;20422975]I want my doctor to be one to help me, not make a profit. The prospect he cares more about his paycheck than my life is scary. That's their job, when they applied to be a doctor, they should've known helping people is one of their things to do.
I wanted to be a construction worker, I am, and I don't bitch about how hard it is. I took this job knowing that it isn't exactly the best paying job, but I accepted it because it's my tradition and I always wanted to build roofs over people's head instead of buying it.
Doctors in Canada shouldn't bitch, they should become doctors because they want to help people, not make money.[/QUOTE]
Why would anyone want to take on a job where they could inadvertently kill people and be responsible for it if they didn't get compensated in kind?
Why does the President of the United States get $400,000 a year? His job should be to help the country, not make a profit. That is his job and when he ran for president he should've known helping people is one of his things to do.
America is a nation where people can sue over coffee burns and getting hurt while robbing a house and win. People sue doctors often, should they not have a way to defend themselves?
Being a doctor is a challenging job. I know a surgeon myself who says that she loves what she does, insofar as helping people goes, but she would never do it again. The stress of seeing people die has done far too much for her to enjoy it, so she essentially sacrifices herself for the well being of others.
Socialized healthcare wouldn't fix anything either. People would end up paying it back in taxes, and if there were no increased taxes the debt would be enormous.
There are also the people complaining about how much health care costs. Are you attempting to put a value on your own life? To me, complaining about a $1,000 dollar bill seems like a person is saying "I'm not worth $1,000".
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;20416713] I mean a person could be a neo-luddite who collects Kraftwerk albums and have more consistency in their ideology than you[/QUOTE]
no it would just mean neo-luddites have good taste in music
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;20423127]Why would anyone want to take on a job where they could inadvertently kill people and be responsible for it if they didn't get compensated in kind?
Why does the President of the United States get $400,000 a year? His job should be to help the country, not make a profit. That is his job and when he ran for president he should've known helping people is one of his things to do.
America is a nation where people can sue over coffee burns and getting hurt while robbing a house and win. People sue doctors often, should they not have a way to defend themselves?
Being a doctor is a challenging job. I know a surgeon myself who says that she loves what she does, insofar as helping people goes, but she would never do it again. The stress of seeing people die has done far too much for her to enjoy it, so she essentially sacrifices herself for the well being of others.
Socialized healthcare wouldn't fix anything either. People would end up paying it back in taxes, and if there were no increased taxes the debt would be enormous.
There are also the people complaining about how much health care costs. Are you attempting to put a value on your own life? To me, complaining about a $1,000 dollar bill seems like a person is saying "I'm not worth $1,000".[/QUOTE]
If you're saying socialized healthcare isn't working anywhere, I'll have to say, you're a fucking idiot. If on the other hand, you're saying it won't work in the US at this time, I might be inclined to say you're not far off the truth for now. Of course people pay it back in taxes, but not nearly the cost that you pay without health insurance, and in many cases, with health insurance. The price is not equal in the end. Up here, we don't try and make a profit on a procedure(for the hospital/company) by charging several hundred thousand extra for a simple procedure, we just pay for the costs. Health care costs a lot, and as a spoiled rich kid, it's doubtful you have to worry about how much it costs you. If it were only a thousand dollars like you're implying here, you'd be right, it isn't a big deal. But seeing as it's NEVER that cheap, you're just dead wrong.
[QUOTE=thisispain;20423184]no it would just mean neo-luddites have good taste in music[/QUOTE]
hey you
do you want to be doctor because you want to help people
or for cash
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;20423127]Why would anyone want to take on a job where they could inadvertently kill people and be responsible for it if they didn't get compensated in kind?
Why does the President of the United States get $400,000 a year? His job should be to help the country, not make a profit. That is his job and when he ran for president he should've known helping people is one of his things to do.
America is a nation where people can sue over coffee burns and getting hurt while robbing a house and win. People sue doctors often, should they not have a way to defend themselves?
Being a doctor is a challenging job. I know a surgeon myself who says that she loves what she does, insofar as helping people goes, but she would never do it again. The stress of seeing people die has done far too much for her to enjoy it, so she essentially sacrifices herself for the well being of others.
Socialized healthcare wouldn't fix anything either. People would end up paying it back in taxes, and if there were no increased taxes the debt would be enormous.
There are also the people complaining about how much health care costs. Are you attempting to put a value on your own life? To me, complaining about a $1,000 dollar bill seems like a person is saying "I'm not worth $1,000".[/QUOTE]
Actually, it's more like "I don't fucking have 1,000 dollars."
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;20416688][url]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/03/BUGA121GPF.DTL&type=health[/url]
[url]http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0903/is_n7_v7/ai_8143615/[/url]
Quality aside, the issue is that there are millions of Americans who cannot afford healthcare. You may be a privledged white kid who can afford all the health insurance you need, but many, many people can't, and they are suffering. And don't give me those bullshit numbers about how so many of the uninsured are teenagers who think they're invincible and people transferring insurance, those numbers have no basis in reality. Rush Limbaugh pulled them out of his drug-addled ass[/QUOTE]
You think I can afford it?! I get my health insurance through my dad and it's set to expire for me soon. Even sooner if I don't keep up 12 credit hours at College. As for that BS. Don't worry, I don't plan on bringing that up.
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;20417044]It's not Ad Homenim, I'm criticizing how his personal lifestyle and ideology are contradictory.
Jesus don't get your fursuit all up in a bunch[/QUOTE]
You don't know how I live.
[QUOTE=Glaber;20423313]I don't have a fur suit.[/QUOTE]
He wasn't even referring to you in that post.
I just realized that and changed the response.
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;20423266]hey you
do you want to be doctor because you want to help people
or for cash[/QUOTE]
if i wanted cash I'd want to be a surgeon or a private practitioner.
[QUOTE=thisispain;20423434]if i wanted cash I'd want to be a surgeon or a private practitioner.[/QUOTE]
if i wanted money id be a bank executive or a magnet therapist
[QUOTE=Jurikuer;20415200]You have no idea how shitty our hospitals are around here. I can't speak for all of Canada but in my region of Ontario the hospitals will have you wait, no matter what your illness is for hours upon hours. If you are profusely bleeding they will bandage it and ignore you for 6 hours in which time the wound could heal on it's own or you could bleed to death. The only way you can guarantee immediate treatment is to call an ambulance and go in through emergency. It costs about 50 bucks, but it'll save your life.[/QUOTE]
Wow, big over-exaggeration. BC's hospital funding has taken a beating over the years, and it's still far better than that.
Educated doctors and nurses probably know your condition better than you do. You're not going to bleed to death in a waiting room. If you have a fairly minor arterial cut, it will heal on it's own. They are not going to have a bunch of nurses parade out for you and kiss your boo-boos. If you could manage to drive yourself to the hospital, your injury can't be that bad. If it is that bad, then call 911, obviously.
If you have a serious injury, such as an amputation or very bad laceration, you'll be the priority as long as doctors are available.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;20423242]If you're saying socialized healthcare isn't working anywhere, I'll have to say, you're a fucking idiot. If on the other hand, you're saying it won't work in the US at this time, I might be inclined to say you're not far off the truth for now. Of course people pay it back in taxes, but not nearly the cost that you pay without health insurance, and in many cases, with health insurance. The price is not equal in the end. Up here, we don't try and make a profit on a procedure(for the hospital/company) by charging several hundred thousand extra for a simple procedure, we just pay for the costs. Health care costs a lot, and as a spoiled rich kid, it's doubtful you have to worry about how much it costs you. If it were only a thousand dollars like you're implying here, you'd be right, it isn't a big deal. But seeing as it's NEVER that cheap, you're just dead wrong.[/QUOTE]
Of course I'm not saying socialized healthcare doesn't work anywhere :/. However, the prices DO have to equal out. Money doesn't appear from nowhere. If people aren't paying for their healthcare, the money has to get to the hospitals some how.
American facilities are some of the best in the world. Doctors around the world can attest to that. The money spent on healthcare goes to better procedures and equipment so the people who come to our hospitals can be well taken care for.
I'm a "spoiled rich kid" because my parents decided to make something of themselves. My grandparents on my mother's side were poor farmers. My grandfather on my father's side was a poor farmer as well, and my grandmother did hair and much of her work was charity for the community. They did not inherit their jobs, they worked hard for themselves.
And yes, I understand that there are very expensive procedures that very few people can pay for but at the same time people have family connections and charities to take care of such things. No, not everyone can afford it but those who can have a higher chance of living than nearly anywhere else in the world. What value do you place on the dedication of a man who was willing to go through 16 years of medical school and do a perfect operation to remove that brain tumor?
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;20423572]I'm a "spoiled rich kid" because my parents decided to make something of themselves. My grandparents on my mother's side were poor farmers. My grandfather on my father's side was a poor farmer as well, and my grandmother did hair and much of her work was charity for the community. They did not inherit their jobs, they worked hard for themselves.
[/QUOTE]
That's an invalid point, there can only be so many rich people. Yes, you probably can make something out of yourself if you try, but if everybody tried, then you'd still only have a small percentage of rich people (or you'd have one giant middle class). Some people will always be doomed to be poor, or lower middle class; you can't ignore them just because they are stuck there.
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;20423572]Of course I'm not saying socialized healthcare doesn't work anywhere :/. However, the prices DO have to equal out. Money doesn't appear from nowhere. If people aren't paying for their healthcare, the money has to get to the hospitals some how.
American facilities are some of the best in the world. Doctors around the world can attest to that. The money spent on healthcare goes to better procedures and equipment so the people who come to our hospitals can be well taken care for.
I'm a "spoiled rich kid" because my parents decided to make something of themselves. My grandparents on my mother's side were poor farmers. My grandfather on my father's side was a poor farmer as well, and my grandmother did hair and much of her work was charity for the community. They did not inherit their jobs, they worked hard for themselves.
And yes, I understand that there are very expensive procedures that very few people can pay for but at the same time people have family connections and charities to take care of such things. No, not everyone can afford it but those who can have a higher chance of living than nearly anywhere else in the world. What value do you place on the dedication of a man who was willing to go through 16 years of medical school and do a perfect operation to remove that brain tumor?[/QUOTE]
You're missing something though. The procedures cost so much down there because they try to work out huge profit margins for relatively inexpensive procedures. The money doesn't have to equal out nearly as much as it does down there due to the lack of procedure cost. Profit is a huge, huge part of the cost for just about any procedure. Thus, it's cheaper with socialized medicine.
My dad grew up as a farmers son in Saskatchewan, now he's a multi millionare due to working hard. My mom had 8 brothers, 9 sisters, and her dad was a gas station attendant. She became an independently wealthy Realtor, hotel manager, etc by 30. I can almost guarantee by that time in the States, neither of them would have been able to do that due to the fact they accumulated injuries, or had pre existing conditions that would have bankrupted them early.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;20423638]That's an invalid point, there can only be so many rich people. Yes, you probably can make something out of yourself if you try, but if everybody tried, then you'd still only have a small percentage of rich people (or you'd have one giant middle class). Some people will always be doomed to be poor, or lower middle class; you can't ignore them just because they are stuck there.[/QUOTE]
Now we get into a debate of morals. America is a capitalistic society. So, let me ask you this: do you believe that the rich should give their money so that the poor may live?
If yes, let me ask you this: at what point does a man have a right to say "enough, I worked hard for this and I should not have to give it away to others. I know they did not all put themselves in the position they are in, but some did." ?
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;20423572]And yes, I understand that there are very expensive procedures that very few people can pay for but at the same time people have family connections and charities to take care of such things. No, not everyone can afford it but those who can have a higher chance of living than nearly anywhere else in the world. What value do you place on the dedication of a man who was willing to go through 16 years of medical school and do a perfect operation to remove that brain tumor?[/QUOTE]
hey poor people fuck you got mine :smug:
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;20423757]Now we get into a debate of morals. America is a capitalistic society. So, let me ask you this: do you believe that the rich should give their money so that the poor may live?
If yes, let me ask you this: at what point does a man have a right to say "enough, I worked hard for this and I should not have to give it away to others. I know they did not all put themselves in the position they are in, but some did." ?[/QUOTE]
[img]http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2007/12/photoshop_phriday_time.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;20423757]Now we get into a debate of morals. America is a capitalistic society. So, let me ask you this: do you believe that the rich should give their money so that the poor may live?
If yes, let me ask you this: at what point does a man have a right to say "enough, I worked hard for this and I should not have to give it away to others. I know they did not all put themselves in the position they are in, but some did." ?[/QUOTE]
And Canada isn't a capitalistic society? Yeah, we are too. But healthcare isn't going to cost you a lot in taxes. You may think that in the end it'll cost you a lot, but it won't. It really is fairly cheap for us to pay for that in terms of taxes. The procedures don't cost as much up here as they do down there. The only moral dilemma here is that line at which it crosses over. Healthcare is safely on the side of a reasonable taxation as everyone is allowed to have it.
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;20423757]Now we get into a debate of morals. America is a capitalistic society. So, let me ask you this: do you believe that the rich should give their money so that the poor may live?
If yes, let me ask you this: at what point does a man have a right to say "enough, I worked hard for this and I should not have to give it away to others. I know they did not all put themselves in the position they are in, but some did." ?[/QUOTE]
Hard work is irrelevant in this case. A lot of the very wealthy people in America are entrepreneurs, and they don't nessesarily work hard for their money. If, on the other hand, you're a highly educated and very hard working individual, and you make 150,000 a year, I'd see that as fair. But if you own many businesses, and make 3,000,000 a year for doing nothing more than overseeing your business operations that are run by other people, I'd say yes, people like that should be taxed very, very heavily.
I'm trying to make the distinction between VERY rich, and just the normal well-off. If you're making more than 200,000 dollars a year, than that's probably too much money IMO. Frankly, the way some very rich people live is absolutely disgusting, regardless of whether you feel you earned enormous amount of money, the point is, you don't actually need it to live a decent life. There's other families out there that are struggling to get by, and as long as there is 10% of the people in the country holding the majority of wealth, all those other people will not be able to climb the ladder.
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;20422975]I want my doctor to be one to help me, not make a profit. The prospect he cares more about his paycheck than my life is scary. That's their job, when they applied to be a doctor, they should've known helping people is one of their things to do.
I wanted to be a construction worker, I am, and I don't bitch about how hard it is. I took this job knowing that it isn't exactly the best paying job, but I accepted it because it's my tradition and I always wanted to build roofs over people's head instead of buying it.
Doctors in Canada shouldn't bitch, they should become doctors because they want to help people, not make money.[/QUOTE]
Thats the honourable part that should apply all around, but sadly, isn't generally the case.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;20423931]Hard work is irrelevant in this case. A lot of the very wealthy people in America are entrepreneurs, and they don't nessesarily work hard for their money. If, on the other hand, you're a highly educated and very hard working individual, and you make 150,000 a year, I'd see that as fair. But if you own many businesses, and make 3,000,000 a year for doing nothing more than overseeing your business operations that are run by other people, I'd say yes, people like that should be taxed very, very heavily.
I'm trying to make the distinction between VERY rich, and just the normal well-off. If you're making more than 200,000 dollars a year, than that's probably too much money IMO. Frankly, the way some very rich people live is absolutely disgusting, regardless of whether you feel you earned enormous amount of money, the point is, you don't actually need it to live a decent life. There's other families out there that are struggling to get by, and as long as there is 10% of the people in the country holding the majority of wealth, all those other people will not be able to climb the ladder.[/QUOTE]
Are you attempting to claim that those people who own many businesses don't do work themselves and didn't work to get there?
You could ague inheritance, but that still doesn't change the fact that businesses provide, well, almost all of the jobs in a country.
Also, you never answered my second question.
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;20423757]Now we get into a debate of morals. America is a capitalistic society. So, let me ask you this: do you believe that the rich should give their money so that the poor may live?
If yes, let me ask you this: at what point does a man have a right to say "enough, I worked hard for this and I should not have to give it away to others. I know they did not all put themselves in the position they are in, but some did." ?[/QUOTE]
by working hard, do you mean sitting in a chair in an air conditioned office and wrecking shit, then asking the government use [b]MY[/b] money to bail them out when they do a shit job?
This isn't newsworthy why are we talking about it ahhhhhh
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;20424174]by working hard, do you mean sitting in a chair in an air conditioned office and wrecking shit, then asking the government use [b]MY[/b] money to bail them out when they do a shit job?[/QUOTE]
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I'm glad your mind could latch on to the concept so quickly.
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;20424274]Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I'm glad your mind could latch on to the concept so quickly.[/QUOTE]
i know, some people say im psychic
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;20423266]hey you
do you want to be doctor because you want to help people
or for cash[/QUOTE]
Canadian doctors get paid 6-figure salaries. Once you're making more than 99k a year you're doing really damn good.
Carpenters and construction workers need to unite together and raise rates! If it wasn't for us you'd all be living in caves and under rocks.
On a side note, most construction jobs don't offer health insurance...
[QUOTE=Glaber;20410820]Yea, if it worked, why did he go to Florida for the surgery?[/QUOTE]
Because he's rich and impatient?
[editline]02:57PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Glaber;20411405]So? If it will help with bringing costs down at all, why not do it? especially if it's been proven to work.[/QUOTE]
By a small amount.
[editline]03:13PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Glaber;20413535]You make it sound that being able to buy heath insurance from Ohio and being able to use it in Texas increases the debt. Why do you hate the free market?[/QUOTE]
That point went STRAIGHT over your meager little head, glaber.
Because the free market is a terrible idea?
[editline]03:18PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;20414413]
I've said it before and I will say it again: Glaber: you don't know anything about politics. You don't. You're quite possibly the least informed, least knowledgable person on this entire forum and yet you keep posting, ignoring every bit of evidence that is constantly being hurled at you.[/QUOTE]
gotta admit, you have people like Jenkem, emperor scorpious, professional, etc who are equally stupid, so I disagree with this statement, although it IS true.
hey, you remember Memphis?
[editline]03:25PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Glaber;20415128]And so are you, Sigma-Lambda. you are no more informed than I am. You just have a different set of information than what I have.[/quote]
That's cute you think you can defend yourself but in actuality, no... not at all.
[quote]According to your article
I'd have to imagine that this puts a strain on Canada's health care system, and it looks like it is.[/quote]
Don't act like you know what you're talking about.
[quote]It looks like now that because of people from the US going to Canada for the free healthcare that they may have to start rationing to control costs. The article doesn't say this, but what would you do?[/quote]
It's not happening? what would I do? I'd do nothing. People are entitled to healthcare.
[quote]From the looks of that article, Canada is in need of reform too.[/quote]
uh, not reform, some patch work.
[quote]And in the US, Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Reid want to push health care through by using Reconciliation. To my understanding, Reconciliation was meant for use on budgets, not healthcare bills.[/quote]
no?
[quote]At least we don't have to present a card here when we need health care, that is unless we want our insurance to pay most of the bill.[/quote]
noooooooo, a card? D:
yeah, you just need to present a massive toll of money. I'd rather flip out a free piece of plastic then my child's college fund
[quote]Edit: I just finished reading the article and it dates back to 1993 when Clinton was trying to do the same thing. The article is still valid I believe, but the situitation has to be worse in Canada now than it was in 93.[/QUOTE]
Actually, the situation has gotten better brohound
[editline]03:28PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Glaber;20416534]
Oh, and check some of those "right wing" sites too.[/QUOTE]
Blatant lies and fear mongering isn't a valid source.
[editline]03:39PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;20423127]
Socialized healthcare wouldn't fix anything either. People would end up paying it back in taxes, and if there were no increased taxes the debt would be enormous. [/quote]
except in countries with UHC, it has. And taxes are barely anything compared to the actual cost.
[quote]There are also the people complaining about how much health care costs. Are you attempting to put a value on your own life? To me, complaining about a $1,000 dollar bill seems like a person is saying "I'm not worth $1,000".[/QUOTE]
Society bases the worth of humans on wealth.
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