BREAKING NEWS: Large Scale Terrorist Attack in France -- Multiple Explosions, Gunfire! Death toll at - Polidicks

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;49113191]How are you supposed to build an organic democracy in a place full of nutty radicals? Democracy requires stability, something the middle east doesn't have any more.[/QUOTE] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat]Certainly not for the sole purpose of gaining a foothold in the region as well as rights to oil.[/url]

[QUOTE=WitheredGryphon;49113185]gman's solution is likely the most viable and the one I agree with the most. Unfortunately it becomes nigh-impossible when you have these radicals impede this kind of progress and prevent any form of democratization. Also minus the fact that there's a lot of disputes over the type of government to be in power in the Middle East right now.[/QUOTE] A reminder that this conflict is born from the conflict between different groups of muslims. You can't turn the middle east into a democracy because half of it wants to murder and subjugate the other half. It'll never calm down because it's a self feeding loop of hatred and barbarism where neither side can ever back down.

[QUOTE=WitheredGryphon;49113185]gman's solution is likely the most viable and the one I agree with the most. Unfortunately it becomes nigh-impossible when you have these radicals impede this kind of progress and prevent any form of democratization. Also minus the fact that there's a lot of disputes over the type of government to be in power in the Middle East right now.[/QUOTE] Not to mention how would you go about actually implementing such a plan. It's a nice sentiment what gman said, but the actual steps to do so have yet to be decided, and as Scorpio said, who is to say they will ever be decided?

[QUOTE=Nicolas;49113159]I hear all the time that Islamic State isn't real Muslims and they are insulting the real one. So why do all these "refugees" do not fight back? Why don't Saudi Arabia fight IS? As soon as someone makes a joke about Muhammad or draws him, he becomes a target (rip) because he is insulting Islam, yet while there is a REAL insult (killing kids, raping and etc in the name of Muhammad or Islam)... it's okay not to do anything.[/QUOTE] If you're so against ISIS, why don't [I]you[/I] fight them? I'll answer for you, because you don't want to go to war. You particularly don't want to go to war against someone who will brutally execute you in ways ranging from imaginative to biblical. As for the likes of Saudi Arabia, what have they got to gain from tilting out to war against someone who hasn't got them in their sights? After all, if everyone should raise arms against their brothers-in-ideals who are too extreme, then why don't blacks decry extremists in BLM? Why don't Republicans openly denounce their too-radical party members? Why doesn't Europe go to war with the great belligerent bear, Russia? Because in spite of whatever evils those uncomfortable comrades work, they do not provoke their friends. Forcing the Muslim world to accept collective guilt for ISIS and the terror attacks is as ridiculous as saying that whites and christians should share in guilt for the actions of Russia.

[QUOTE=Warriorx4;49113197][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat]Certainly not for the sole purpose of gaining a foothold in the region as well as rights to oil.[/url][/QUOTE] That was half a century ago, the region just isn't the same any more.

[QUOTE=gman003-main;49113152]Gonna repeat in brief something I said earlier in depth: You want to hurt Islamic terrorism? Turn the Third World into the First World. Build up the Middle-East's economy - the actual economy, not the "we're selling off all our oil as fast as we can pump it out, everything's free but unemployment is like 80%" they currently have in parts. Give people jobs, that pay enough money for a house, and food, and clothes, and to start a family. This cuts off the supply of recruits with nothing left to lose. Topple the dictatorships, and build up real democracies - I'm talking "America should learn some things from" democracies. This gives their social problems a way to relieve themselves peacefully. Educate the people. This makes them smarter and harder to manipulate. Expose them to a variety of cultures, so they see foreigners as people and not animals. You won't need to erase their culture - they'll erase the parts they see are wrong, and keep the parts that are fine. And probably spread those parts on to us, because it is exceedingly improbable that they don't have some good ideas.[/QUOTE] This is absolutely the correct way of thinking and I appreciate the positivty and constructive thinking. The only thing that sucks I'd that this is a very very long term solution, especially with our current political climate. Much less in the information age of the 21st century, but like I said earlier, I can almost guarantee we will still see terrorist attacks on this scale for decades still.

[QUOTE=Cypher_09;49113188]Friends of mine are coming up north for the weekend I really hope they reconsider that worrying decision soon before it's too late.[/QUOTE] You have friends who are travelling up north just for that? That's fucking ridiculous.

Wish we talked more about how to deal with fucked up things like this. I swear I've been hearing about ISIS going to attack Europe for months. And I thought all the fucking surveillance and shit would prevent this. The attacks occurred simultaneously at 5 different places yea?

[QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;49113215]If you're so against ISIS, why don't [I]you[/I] fight them? I'll answer for you, because you don't want to go to war. [/QUOTE] I fucking love it when people say this like it's a valid way to argue and not just be a fallacious sod.

[QUOTE=Warriorx4;49113213]Not to mention how would you go about actually implementing such a plan. It's a nice sentiment what gman said, but the actual steps to do so have yet to be decided, and as Scorpio said, who is to say they will ever be decided?[/QUOTE] Not that it's viable, but it's practically the only one that will work short of total annihilation of the Middle East. It needs stability, and to be modernized. Killing them will only turn them into martyrs.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;49113220]That was half a century ago, the region just isn't the same any more.[/QUOTE] Yeah you're right. It's worse, I dunno man I'm just trying to think of positive shit.

[QUOTE=WitheredGryphon;49113168]Probably because they are a part of the population who don't believe in fighting fire with fire. Nor do they have the capability to take on a terrorist organization like the IS.[/QUOTE] Not doing anything, closing the eyes or leaving homes and not fighting the terrorists is the same as supporting them. You may say I am wrong or something else, but when you are not stopping them or fighting them, they grow and become stronger. Radical Muslims see that and join the terrorists (even some normal people do that).

[QUOTE=Swebonny;49113225]Wish we talked more about how to deal with fucked up things like this. I swear I've been hearing about ISIS going to attack Europe for months. And I thought all the fucking surveillance and shit would prevent this. The attacks occurred simultaneously at 5 different places yea?[/QUOTE] All things considered, planning a coordinated terrorist attack isn't all that difficult I imagine. You just need the supplies to carry it out. It's hard to prevent an attack that didn't even exist a month or two ago.

[QUOTE=Warriorx4;49113237]Yeah you're right. It's worse, I dunno man I'm just trying to think of positive shit.[/QUOTE] I don't disagree with trying to help an educate people, I definitely think we should step in in areas that have turned into islamic caliphates, but honestly we should just leave dictators alone from now on, every time we've toppled a dictator in the last decade or so everything has just become even worse.

[QUOTE=Nicolas;49113238]Not doing anything, closing the eyes or leaving homes and not fighting the terrorists is the same as supporting them. You may say I am wrong or something else, but when you are not stopping them or fighting them, they grow and become stronger. [B]Radical Muslims see that and join the terrorists (even some normal people do that).[/B][/QUOTE] It's worth mentioning where ISIS fighters are coming from in Europe, and seeing how they treat their growing Muslim populations. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/mzoMKfW.png[/IMG] Why are so many fighters coming from Denmark, Sweden and Belgium?

[QUOTE=Nicolas;49113238]Not doing anything, closing the eyes or leaving homes and not fighting the terrorists is the same as supporting them. You may say I am wrong or something else, but when you are not stopping them or fighting them, they grow and become stronger. Radical Muslims see that and join the terrorists (even some normal people do that).[/QUOTE] Sometimes the winning move is not to play. Why throw your life away when you have literally no change of success? Or worse, risk being captured and tortured then winding up in the next ISIS mass execution video. These refugees aren't equipped to fight the IS. Sure, they could put up a fight, but they would simply be dominated by the fact the IS has organization, manpower, and firepower to back them up.

From Maddox [QUOTE]In light of the recent tragedy in Paris, it's important to recognize the stages of Internet grief and outrage so we can all start healing: 1. Blame an entire race, religion, political party or country. It's not a few bad people, it's an entire population that's at fault. Make sure your friends on Facebook know what you think. Make sure to cherry-pick lots of examples to back up your claim! 2. Push your pro/anti-gun agenda. People are still grieving the loss of their loved ones. Now's your chance to kick dirt in their face with an "I-told-you-so!" post about how right and wise you were to promote your gun ideology. Pro-tip: mutter "when will people learn?" to yourself while you read your newsfeed and shake your head back and forth in disbelief. 3. Spread a crackpot conspiracy theory. Do all the signs of an attack point to ISIS? TOO OBVIOUS! That's what "they" want you to believe. Nevermind who "they" are, you're smarter than "them" and you know all-is-not-as-it-seems. When will people wake up? Better check Infowars to see if they'll affirm your theory. Spoiler: they do! 4. Check to make sure your friends and relatives in the country are safe. Or don't, you've got arguments to win on the Internet. No time for sympathy! 5. Realize the futility of arguing with idiots and log off Facebook for a week. This is the only real tip on this list. Together we can put this behind us and go back to attacking each other for minor political differences in no time. Thanks[/QUOTE] [url]https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10153802019518291&id=17359118290[/url] FP brilliantly representing 1 and 2

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;49113165]Islam just doesn't work with democracy.[/QUOTE] Pakistan? Malaysia? Iran? All the African countries with sizable Muslim minorities and functional democracies? The idea that Islamic culture is some great big Other that can't be reasoned with and is permanently stuck in the Middle Ages is pretty dumb.

[QUOTE=Camundongo;49113223]You have friends who are travelling up north just for that? That's fucking ridiculous.[/QUOTE] True. There are just as many terrorist threats up here :v:

This thread is a shitshow

[QUOTE=Pvt. Tibbles;49113226]I fucking love it when people say this like it's a valid way to argue and not just be a fallacious sod.[/QUOTE] It is a valid way to argue. It's not just a [I]tu quoque.[/I] That fallacy only applies when the path of logic has nothing to do with the apparent hypocrisy in the statement. For instance, it is entirely right for a person to call out a criminal such as a robber or a murderer, even if they are themselves a petty criminal. It would be a tu quoque fallacy if the criminal tried to say to the other criminal, "well you broke the law too." However, arguing that people take actions that you yourself would not undertake, that is, failing to self-instantiate in the argument, is ridiculous and hypocritical. In the same way that I could say, "all people should refrain from drinking," you would expect [I]me[/I] to uphold that stricture myself. If I however said it while greedily drinking from a large bottle of cognac, you would suspect I am deeply hypocritical which is, infact, an argumentative flaw. A hypocritical argumenter cannot be said to have justified integrity, and disavows themselves of the principle of charity. (That is, that what they say will not be taken to have intentionally be made in factual or intellectual mistakes/untruths for the sake of argument, which is entirely [I]ad hoc[/I]. That is, only for the purposes of achieving success in the argument.)

[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;49113255]It's worth mentioning where ISIS fighters are coming from in Europe, and seeing how they treat their growing Muslim populations. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/mzoMKfW.png[/IMG] Why are so many fighters coming from Denmark, Sweden and Belgium?[/QUOTE] Probably because young people that feel excluded from society do dumb stuff. Unfortunately European immigrants exclude themselves.

Europe should just stop fucking accepting refugees, send them to Lebanon or Egypt. This fucking shit is surreal.

[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;49113156]Are you fucking serious? Over a hundred people were killed in Paris today and you're trying to play the moral superior by pointing out other people were killed in other parts of the world too? Yeah, tell those French users who they should feel sorry for, Mr. American.[/QUOTE] I'd like to apologize for miswording things that badly and try to make my initial point a bit clearer: As of yet it seems quite a lot more people are trying to blame Islam and Muslims in general for the attacks. It does seem likely that an Islamist group was responsible. The problem that has arisen is quite a lot of the people rushing to blame are using it as an excuse to make it out like Islam is some sort of global conspiracy against Europeans. To do this however they have to ignore almost a third of the people killed today because almost a third of the targets were Muslims in Middle Eastern nations. My intent was not to belittle the people killed in France, rather to point out that people are clearly belittling the people killed elsewhere because they're not as politically useful as the ones killed in France. Also as of yet the majority of outrage and conspiracy theories being built around this seem to be coming from non-French users, Mr. American.

[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;49113255]It's worth mentioning where ISIS fighters are coming from in Europe, and seeing how they treat their growing Muslim populations. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/mzoMKfW.png[/IMG] Why are so many fighters coming from Denmark, Sweden and Belgium?[/QUOTE] [B]This graph represents ISIS fighters per million population. That is silly.[/B] Denmark has 5.6 million people. France has 66 million people. France is [B]absolutely[/B] producing more, MANY more radical islamists than the Scandinavian countries. This graph is [B]such[/B] a skewed presentation of information that it's outright propoganda when it comes to arguing over why "certain countries are making so many fighters."

[QUOTE=WitheredGryphon;49113258]Sometimes the winning move is not to play. Why throw your life away when you have literally no change of success? Or worse, risk being captured and tortured then winding up in the next ISIS mass execution video. These refugees aren't equipped to fight the IS. Sure, they could put up a fight, but they would simply be dominated by the fact the IS has organization, manpower, and firepower to back them up.[/QUOTE] Saudi Arabia could sell a few golden jets or golden Lamborghini and help "refugees" to buy some firepower. Or they could help with their manpower.

why does canada have more than usa in that chart edit: i'm dumb it's in reverse

[QUOTE=Nicolas;49113305]Saudi Arabia could sell a few golden jets or golden Lamborghini and help "refugees" to buy some firepower. Or they could help with their manpower.[/QUOTE] Then you're right back at square one, even if the refugees somehow amassed enough firepower to take on the IS: how do you kill an ideology without turning them into martyrs?

[QUOTE=0x0000000C;49113289]Europe should just stop fucking accepting refugees, send them to Lebanon or Egypt. This fucking shit is surreal.[/QUOTE] But the majority refugees are fleeing from the ISIS aswell and we had a terror attack in Lebanon aswell today.

I think the biggest challenge to stabilizing the middle east is going to be commitment from the Western world. Change won't happen overnight (or perhaps even within a lifetime), and even when promising progress has been made up and leaving without insuring the country has a solid foundation is just going to let it crumble down.