[QUOTE=Lankist;35722472]Rehabilitation also doesn't kill people.
First you justify the killing of another human being based upon "certainty," and now you say "well if you're PRETTY sure."
No. Fuck "pretty sure." You don't fucking murder someone based on "pretty sure."
If you figure out they're innocent ten years later, you can let them out of a prison.
You can't bring them the fuck back to life. You'll have killed an innocent person, and you can't undo that. The only certain thing in this equation is that someone is dead. Everything else is due to change.[/QUOTE]
They do the best they can, sometimes evidence gets fucked up, or is messed with intentionally, if it points to the person heavily that they did the crime, it's up to the jury, which is not always the best at making the decision.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35722558]You can also prevent a lot of murders by randomly executing people in the streets.
Our justice system is not a preventative justice system. It is a reconciliatory justice system. We address crimes after they have happened, not before.[/QUOTE]
That is true, but these men are not random innocent people. They were convicted guilty of homicide.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;35722596]They do the best they can, sometimes evidence gets fucked up, or is messed with intentionally, if it points to the person heavily that they did the crime, it's up to the jury, which is not always the best at making the decision.[/QUOTE]
somehow i get the feeling that the best you can isn't going to fucking cut it.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;35722596]They do the best they can, sometimes evidence gets fucked up, or is messed with intentionally, if it points to the person heavily that they did the crime, it's up to the jury, which is not always the best at making the decision.[/QUOTE]
Anything less than total 100% certainty in the case of the death penalty is unacceptable.
I don't care if only 10% of those executed are innocent, or 1%, or even 0.0001%.
Any chance at all that an innocent life can be killed by this system is reason enough to abolish the death penalty. I don't care how much you lust for criminal blood.
[QUOTE=MBB;35722631]That is true, but these men are not random innocent people. They were convicted guilty of homicide.[/QUOTE]
and lots of innocent people have been convicted and executed.
the numbers we started seeing when DNA evidence entered the equation were fucking horrifying.
Innocent people get caught in the system. Usually when cops are lazy or lawyers are trying to maintain their win/loss record. Innocent people pay for that.
So unless you're going to solve human corruption, no.
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;35719273]if i meant majority or all prisoners were barbarians, then i would've used the word 'those' to generalize them
but i used 'the' to signify a specific group that's willing to kill because they're sick in the head as well
neither did i ever say that should happen, merely saying with or without death penalty, someone who committed heinous crimes won't be safe from harm
i guess being in that moral high horse makes you look down and assume everything eh?[/QUOTE]
Learn what a morale high horse is before you actually say it thank you.
The reason we need the death penalty is not just for the financial reasons, but for the victims of the murderer. Many times there isn't enough evidence to prove someone murdered someone, even if they really did (innocent until proven guilty). They end up going to prison for the ones they can prove.
In a way, killing off the prisoner is the representation for the ones who didn't get their justice in court. And ask yourself, would you rather live in a small cell, eat nasty food, share a cell and shower with other dudes, and lose all of your freedom, or die?
I'd rather die then go through all that. The death penalty really is more humane.
[QUOTE=babycake;35722674]The reason we need the death penalty is not just for the financial reasons, but for the victims of the murderer. Many times there isn't enough evidence to prove someone murdered someone, even if they really did (innocent until proven guilty). They end up going to prison for the ones they can prove.
In a way, killing off the prisoner is the representation for the ones who didn't get their justice in court. And ask yourself, would you rather live in a small cell, eat nasty food, share a cell and shower with other dudes, and lose all of your freedom, or die?
I'd rather die then go through all that. The death penalty really is more humane.[/QUOTE]
Ok let me just start out by saying that there [b]there is no financial reason for the death penalty[/b]. The appeals process ends up costing more money than life in prison would have.
I also really love how you consider the death penalty better than imprisonment. It really speaks volumes about America when the death penalty is considered more humane than life imprisonment.
[QUOTE=babycake;35722674]The reason we need the death penalty is not just for the financial reasons, but for the victims of the murderer. Many times there isn't enough evidence to prove someone murdered someone, even if they really did (innocent until proven guilty). They end up going to prison for the ones they can prove.
In a way, killing off the prisoner is the representation for the ones who didn't get their justice in court. And ask yourself, would you rather live in a small cell, eat nasty food, share a cell and shower with other dudes, and lose all of your freedom, or die?
I'd rather die then go through all that. The death penalty really is more humane.[/QUOTE]
Or maybe the death penalty needs to just be abolished and the horrendous prison conditions need to be improved. You do lose many rights when it has been proved that you cannot at that point function properly in society, but the right to live is not one of them.
Whether or not the family wants to see the murderer's blood shed out of their lust for revenge should have absolutely no influence on the justice system, that's a cultural/attitude problem that really needs to be adjusted. It's ancient, barbaric, and has no place in civilized society.
[QUOTE=babycake;35722674]The reason we need the death penalty is not just for the financial reasons, but for the victims of the murderer. Many times there isn't enough evidence to prove someone murdered someone, even if they really did (innocent until proven guilty). They end up going to prison for the ones they can prove.
In a way, killing off the prisoner is the representation for the ones who didn't get their justice in court. And ask yourself, would you rather live in a small cell, eat nasty food, share a cell and shower with other dudes, and lose all of your freedom, or die?
I'd rather die then go through all that. The death penalty really is more humane.[/QUOTE]
No.
Our justice system is not some fucking group of masked vigilantes out for vengeance.
Stop watching movies.
[editline]26th April 2012[/editline]
love the logic
"prisons are shitty, what should we do?"
"KILL EVERYONE"
"couldn't we just, like, improve our p-"
"KILL."
"EVERYONE."
[editline]26th April 2012[/editline]
Man working at McDonalds is such a shit job
DON'T WORRY, BABYCAKE IS HERE TO SOLVE ALL OF YOUR PROBLEMS
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;35722769]Ok let me just start out by saying that there [b]there is no financial reason for the death penalty[/b]. The appeals process ends up costing more money than life in prison would have.
I also really love how you consider the death penalty better than imprisonment. It really speaks volumes about America when the death penalty is considered more humane than life imprisonment.[/QUOTE]
Are you implying people with life imprisonment don't make appeals at all? Most of them make appeals for the rest of their natural lives (like Charles Manson) .
And here in America, life isn't worth having if it isn't free. I guess you are the sort of person who won't put down a dog even if it was suffering.
[QUOTE=babycake;35722962]Are you implying people with life imprisonment don't make appeals at all? Most of them make appeals for the rest of their natural lives (like Charles Manson) .
And here in America, life isn't worth having if it isn't free. I guess you are the sort of person who won't put down a dog even if it was suffering.[/QUOTE]No. Unlike you, I'm just not the kind of person who believes that involuntarily taking the lives of other people is a solution to their suffering.
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;35722565][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/Boxbot219/BlackholeDiagramSilly_Laugh2_8331.png[/IMG]
This is what you believe.[/QUOTE]
Did you know that you can extract evil from the moralsphere of a rotating morality black hole via the Penrose process because the evil is stored in the malicious momentum of the moralsphere which is outside of the moral event horizon? True shit.
[QUOTE=babycake;35722962]Are you implying people with life imprisonment don't make appeals at all? Most of them make appeals for the rest of their natural lives (like Charles Manson) .
And here in America, life isn't worth having if it isn't free. I guess you are the sort of person who won't put down a dog even if it was suffering.[/QUOTE]
erm... maybe they dont want to die?
[QUOTE=babycake;35722674]The reason we need the death penalty is not just for the financial reasons, but for the victims of the murderer. Many times there isn't enough evidence to prove someone murdered someone, even if they really did (innocent until proven guilty). They end up going to prison for the ones they can prove.
In a way, killing off the prisoner is the representation for the ones who didn't get their justice in court. And ask yourself, would you rather live in a small cell, eat nasty food, share a cell and shower with other dudes, and lose all of your freedom, or die?
I'd rather die then go through all that. The death penalty really is more humane.[/QUOTE]
"I'd rather die then go through all that. The death penalty really is more humane."
Rephrased: "Based on my non-existent experience with choices between death and imprisonment, I can deduct that everyone else would choose as I would and thus consider death more humane than imprisonment."
Unless you've been in that position, shut the fuck up. And even if you have, you're in no position to make that choice beforehand for others, so shut the fuck up there as well.
Killing off the prisoner is state revenge killing. Which is not the same as justice.
Also, might I point to the really sad and obvious homophobia implied in "would you share a cell and shower with other dudes"? You'd rather die than shower with other men? Grow the fuck up.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35722923]No.
Our justice system is not some fucking group of masked vigilantes out for vengeance.
Stop watching movies.
[editline]26th April 2012[/editline]
love the logic
"prisons are shitty, what should we do?"
"KILL EVERYONE"
"couldn't we just, like, improve our p-"
"KILL."
"EVERYONE."
[editline]26th April 2012[/editline]
Man working at McDonalds is such a shit job
DON'T WORRY, BABYCAKE IS HERE TO SOLVE ALL OF YOUR PROBLEMS[/QUOTE]
Do you honestly think they haven't tried improving prisons? You end up getting the scary prisons they have
In Norway.
And it isn't the prison itself that's the problem, because generally an enclosure filled with rapists and murderers tends to have lots of rape and murder. And keeping someone in there for the rest of their lives is more cruel than leathally injecting someone.
The joke.
[QUOTE=babycake;35723786]Do you honestly think they haven't tried improving prisons? You end up getting the scary prisons they have in Norway.
And it isn't the prison itself that's the problem, because generally an enclosure filled with rapists and murderers tends to have lots of rape and murder. And keeping someone in there for the rest of their lives is more cruel than leathally injecting someone.[/QUOTE]
"scary prisons they have in Norway"
Mind pointing those out, exactly? I doubt there are worse prisons in Norway than in the US, but maybe I'm just not aware of norwegian guantanamo bay.
"an enclosure filled with rapists and murderers tends to have lots of rape and murder"
Totally not a result of the extremely great conditions your prisons have, no.
"And keeping someone in there for the rest of their lives is more cruel than leathally injecting someone."
Again, your proof of this? Your prisoner poll demographics? This is just your opinion, supported by nothing.
[QUOTE=babycake;35723786]Do you honestly think they haven't tried improving prisons? You end up getting the scary prisons they have in Norway.
And it isn't the prison itself that's the problem, because generally an enclosure filled with rapists and murderers tends to have lots of rape and murder. And keeping someone in there for the rest of their lives is more cruel than leathally injecting someone.[/QUOTE]
Oh man we sure don't want scary prisons like Norway has!
You know, the ones that have a lower recidivism rate by far from American prisons.
[QUOTE=babycake;35723786]Do you honestly think they haven't tried improving prisons? You end up getting the scary prisons they have in Norway.
And it isn't the prison itself that's the problem, because generally an enclosure filled with rapists and murderers tends to have lots of rape and murder. And keeping someone in there for the rest of their lives is more cruel than leathally injecting someone.[/QUOTE]
so we kill everyone because anything else might require effort
you're not moral you're just fucking lazy.
[QUOTE=Numidium;35723845]"scary prisons they have in Norway"
Mind pointing those out, exactly? I doubt there are worse prisons in Norway than in the US, but maybe I'm just not aware of norwegian guantanamo bay.[/QUOTE]He's actually frightened by the idea of Norway having prisons that don't treat the prisoners like animals.
[QUOTE=babycake;35723786]Do you honestly think they haven't tried improving prisons? You end up getting the scary prisons they have in Norway. [/QUOTE]
You mean the ones with a fraction of the recidivism rate of US prisons? Yeah scary.
Your heads.
The joke is that Nordic prisons are hardly punishments at all. Plus, outright banning the death penalty would stiff the convicts who don't want to live in prisons for the rest of their lives, like (ironically) Anders Brehvik.
And lazy? Really? I never said anything about killing [I]every[/I]body, you're just telling yourself what you want me to say. And swearing and caps lock don't make your points more valid.
[QUOTE=babycake;35724142]Your heads.
The joke is that Nordic prisons are hardly punishments at all. Plus, outright banning the death penalty would stiff the convicts who don't want to live in prisons for the rest of their lives, like (ironically) Anders Brehvik.
And lazy? Really? I never said anything about killing [I]every[/I]body, you're just telling yourself what you want me to say. And swearing and caps lock don't make your points more valid.[/QUOTE]
Well, looking at recidivism, maybe, not being punishments at all is kinda better. Also, would you mind linking the Breivik quote where he said he wanted to die rather than go to prison? I don't know if you're aware, but he spent half of last week trying to be recognized as accountable.
My problem with the death penalty is that it's supposed to be the ultimate punishment, based upon the assumption that anyone who commits a crime did so of their own free will. Which is bullshit. Everything we do is based on past experiences, and our brain basically makes the decision for what to do, so we just act it out. By past experiences, I mean where you were raised, how your parents treated you, and so on. People don't just murder for no reason; when someone does something that annoys you, you don't place a knife in their neck. So why do some people? I don't think that we can hold all people accountable for their actions, even if they are horrific.
[QUOTE=Patriarch;35724265]My problem with the death penalty is that it's supposed to be the ultimate punishment, based upon the assumption that anyone who commits a crime did so of their own free will. Which is bullshit. Everything we do is based on past experiences, and our brain basically makes the decision for what to do, so we just act it out. By past experiences, I mean where you were raised, how your parents treated you, and so on. People don't just murder for no reason; when someone does something that annoys you, you don't place a knife in their neck. So why do some people? I don't think that we can hold all people accountable for their actions, even if they are horrific.[/QUOTE]
We have to pretend that free will exists in order to even have a responsibility-based law system. So there's no way around that unless you'll allow basically anything.
[QUOTE=Numidium;35724251]Well, looking at recidivism, maybe, not being punishments at all is kinda better. Also, would you mind linking the Breivik quote where he said he wanted to die rather than go to prison? I don't know if you're aware, but he spent half of last week trying to be recognized as accountable.[/QUOTE]
I saw it here on Facepunch, here on sensationalist headlines. I'll get it in a moment when I'm not on my phone. And saying you're accountable and wanting to be punished aren't mutally exclusive.
Got it. [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/18/anders-breivik-execution-pathetic-jail-term[/url]
It won't help your point, just saying. Breivik is one person. He wanted to kill himself after Utoya anyways. You can hardly apply his position to every norwegian convict or deduct a statement about the quality of norwegian prisons from it.
[QUOTE=Numidium;35724318]We have to pretend that free will exists in order to even have a responsibility-based law system. So there's no way around that unless you'll allow basically anything.[/QUOTE]
If you have similar thoughts to what I have said previously, a responsibility-based law system isn't a great idea.
I think that when someone commits a crime, you should look at why they did it. A person may burgle a house because they are poor. Can you really blame them for this? A person may murder another due to a high build up of stress and depression (I have no idea what I'm talking about). Murder may be more decisive, and perhaps less excusable, but as I have said previously, you don't go about mudering people willy-nilly, so why do others?
A justice system should therefore be based more on rehabilitation whilst also trying to prevent future attacks on society. Punishment doesn't help anybody, and only serves to fill the ego of those who believe in this moral-responsibility nonsence
[QUOTE=Patriarch;35724460]If you have similar thoughts to what I have said previously, a responsibility-based law system isn't a great idea.
I think that when someone commits a crime, you should look at why they did it. A person may burgle a house because they are poor. Can you really blame them for this? A person may murder another due to a high build up of stress and depression (I have no idea what I'm talking about). Murder may be more decisive, and perhaps less excusable, but as I have said previously, you don't go about mudering people willy-nilly, so why do others?
A justice system should therefore be based more on rehabilitation whilst also trying to prevent future attacks on society. Punishment doesn't help anybody, and only serves to fill the ego of those who believe in this moral-responsibility nonsence[/QUOTE]
I know what you're saying. But prevention is uncertain. Punishment isn't. Neither is exemplary punishment, which is what the current justice system is primarily designed to provide. Prevention is most likely gonna infringe important freedoms. Exemplary punishment isn't. The only reason we're punishing criminals is so others look at it and say "Hey, I don't want that happen to me, so I won't commit crimes.". Responsibility is minor here, it's about constructing mental barriers.
[QUOTE=Numidium;35724658]I know what you're saying. But prevention is uncertain. Punishment isn't. Neither is exemplary punishment, which is what the current justice system is primarily designed to provide. Prevention is most likely gonna infringe important freedoms. Exemplary punishment isn't. The only reason we're punishing criminals is so others look at it and say "Hey, I don't want that happen to me, so I won't commit crimes.". Responsibility is minor here, it's about constructing mental barriers.[/QUOTE]
If though you accept that the notion of free will is false, then it seems silly to punish a lot of these people. Sure, some of them are scared away by threat of punishment, but most aren't. There are so many in U.S prisons right now, in fact the most compared to other countries, so punishment doesn't seem to be working there.
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