Connecticut abolishes death penalty. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Numidium;35730199]As far as I gathered, you're the one that keeps talking about rehabilitation while admitting he knows fuckall about it. [/QUOTE] Don't think so... [QUOTE=Numidium;35730199]"Kill people? What are you talking about..." The death penalty? The fucking topic at hand?[/QUOTE] Never supported the death penalty. So I have no idea what you're referring to. [QUOTE=Numidium;35730199] Funny how you generalize all of Facepunch to be unable of deep debate when you struggle with a simple analogy.[/QUOTE] Only because of how ridiculous it was. I too can put words together that have no applicable meaning, yet form a sentence! [QUOTE=Numidium;35730199]On the point about other aims of death penalty, in my small argument with Patriarch on last page I mentioned this and he made a good point on how exemplary punishment doesn't prevent crime.[/QUOTE] You'd be surprised. It works well in the short term, as the death penalty did (again I am not promoting or suggesting the use of capital punishment). Dealing with criminal sanctions that involve deterrent elements don't always work, however it is a requirement in handling criminal sanctions. When sanctions are issued for convicted murders, it's pretty much a given they'll be sentenced according to something inline with deterrence the judicial system believe is applicable. Which is of course based upon research. Both through studies, and determining the public's wishes. [QUOTE=Numidium;35730199]I don't think I have to explain why retribution(revenge) isn't justice, Sanius did that already as well. [/QUOTE] No it's not justice. The courts do not dish out justice to a convicted murderer... If you thought that the legal system was actually a justice system, then this is your error. Regardless of if you believe that retribution is a bad thing, it will always remain apart of criminal sanctions, and one of the more important elements too. [QUOTE=Numidium;35730199]And protection goes back to the rehabilitation point that we just agreed we have to leave out.[/QUOTE] What. We did?

We did. You agreed you can't make statements on rehabilitation, so did I. Reasonable people would at this point stop talking about something they both can't talk about. If you're against death penalty, and your point is that the justice system is injust, why are we even arguing? Because you made a claim you can't support. You've been told that and agreed to it now several times. There's nothing left to talk about. I thought you supported the death penalty, if that's not the case, sorry, I shouldn't have assumed that. It's just that most people that bring up the "criminals can't be rehab'ed" point do it in support of capital punishment.

[QUOTE=Numidium;35730403]We did. You agreed you can't make statements on rehabilitation, so did I. Reasonable people would at this point stop talking about something they both can't talk about.[/quote] I didn't do such a thing, and even if you believe I did, to declare an argument untouchable is a pathetic way to manage a discussion. Might as well exclude other sections of arguments, and bring the discussion down to "murder is bad, mmmkay?" Rehabilitation does not give a guaranteed result. A person that appears to have been rehabilitated might then go on to murder someone else. They've shown already that they are capable of doing so. However, a person in prison, cannot then murder another member of the public... well, because they're in prison. Considering that protection of the public is typically of the highest priority (especially when the court considers the severity [and function] of the criminal sanction), there is therefore justification for many prisoners to remain in prison. [QUOTE=Numidium;35730403]If you're against death penalty, and your point is that the justice system is injust, why are we even arguing?[/quote] Because your understanding of the operation and function of the judicial system is limited. This is demonstrated by you believing that sentencing criminals with the aim of retribution is flawed and an injustice to the convicted. Retribution is a key element in criminal sanctions. It's indeed why many legal jurisdictions are now allowing victim impact statements to be made after the person has been convicted but before the sentence is issued. These victim impact statements allow the persons family or loved ones to tell the court what impact the convicted persons actions have had on their daily life. Often a judge, in determining the sanction, will directly refer to the victim impact statement. It might be worth you listening to some court recordings of sentencing for serious offences. You'll often hear the judges directly refer to stuff you've declared as being wrong or an injustice.

And they could not be wrong? You just said a few lines above that "If you thought that the legal system was actually a justice system, then this is your error". I'm not arguing about how courts work, I'm arguing that they're injust. Pointing to how the world works and telling me that because it works this way, it's obviously the right way is, I'd say, a lot more limited than what you percieve my understanding of the legal system to be. When you say that "Retribution is a key element in criminal sanctions", I'm not arguing that that happens. Not at all. Nobody here is. What we're trying to argue is that that is injust and should not happen. My opinion that retribution is injust does not come from my lack of understanding of the legal system, it's a statement about how just I percieve the legal system to be. Is your position really "This is how it works, so we can't change it." or "This is how it works, it must therefore be right." ?

[QUOTE=Numidium;35730708]And they could not be wrong? You just said a few lines above that "If you thought that the legal system was actually a justice system, then this is your error". I'm not arguing about how courts work, I'm arguing that they're injust. Pointing to how the world works and telling me that because it works this way, it's obviously the right way is, I'd say, a lot more limited than what you percieve my understanding of the legal system to be. [/quote] Bullcrap. Courts all over the world operate in a similar manner when dealing with the determination of the appropriate criminal sanctions. They look into the history of the person. They look into the nature of the crime. They look into studies. Sometimes they even commission a study. They determine the best interests of the public. Of course, this is an extreme oversimplification of the manner in which the court operates, but I hope you get the drift. They do a lot of research in determining the appropriate sentence. I accept that courts can be wrong on a single particular sentence (which may compile of the wrong elements), but they are not wrong with the method they choose to use in determination. For this reason, we have a court hierarchy - so if one court gets it wrong, another can hopefully correct. Just as a side note... while I have heard for arguments calling for the rehabilitation of all criminals, I have never ever heard of an argument to remove retribution as an element in criminal sanctions. [QUOTE=Numidium;35730708]When you say that "Retribution is a key element in criminal sanctions", I'm not arguing that that happens. Not at all. Nobody here is. What we're trying to argue is that that is injust and should not happen.[/quote] It's ridiculous to suggest that retribution is injust. I'm sorry... it just is. Sure, it would be terrible to base a sentence solely on the element of retribution, but they never are. [QUOTE=Numidium;35730708]Is your position really "This is how it works, so we can't change it." or "This is how it works, it must therefore be right." ?[/QUOTE] Not at all, however it seems many disagree with you - typically because those with life experience know a little more than those without. It seems more and more judicial systems around the world are taking a larger approach towards retribution too. The VIS (of which I previously gave an example) is a modern invention of around the last 25-30 years. I assume that over the previous hundreds of years, in which the court has developed, through common law, that we are not taking a turn for the worse. [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] P.S. Please stop with these two alternative assumptions. They're terrible and you should feel bad.

"I'm sorry... it just is." So this is how you argue, I get it. Things are right because most people think they are. What am I supposed to say to that? I don't feel bad, no, because I don't look at what most XYZ do or think and just take that it has to be right because of that. And that's certainly not "life experience", it's being a sheep.

[QUOTE=Numidium;35731064]"I'm sorry... it just is." So this is how you argue, I get it. Things are right because most people think they are. [/quote] A judicial system has to be relevant to everyone. It cannot be applicable to only a few, otherwise it's authority and meaning are quickly dissipated. The best way it can be relevant to everyone is to be based upon laws, which are created by elected representatives, and to sentence according to the publics wishes. [QUOTE=Numidium;35731064]I don't feel bad, no, because I don't look at what most XYZ do or think and just take that it has to be right because of that. And that's certainly not "life experience", it's being a sheep.[/QUOTE] There's a reason why you often see young people only at demonstrations against certain things. Those with life experience tend to favour more severer punishments, that focus on things like the protection of the public, deterrence and retribution, rather than rehabilitation. Regardless, I'm out of this argument.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;35731268]There's a reason why you often see young people only at demonstrations against certain things. Those with life experience tend to favour more severer punishments, that focus on things like the protection of the public, deterrence and retribution, rather than rehabilitation.[/QUOTE] so wait because some old people favor a particular way of thinking it's the one that we should use... because they're old? unless they have experienced everything from every possible point of view and know exactly what everybody in a situation is feeling, their position on a matter cannot be held any higher than anyone else's because they don't know anything more also severer isn't a word

[QUOTE=Cone;35731423]so wait because some old people favor a particular way of thinking it's the one that we should use... because they're old?[/quote] Yes. People tend to become more wise as they grow older. The people often change their views over time. [QUOTE=Cone;35731423]also severer isn't a word[/QUOTE] Uh, what? It's a comparative adjective. [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] What a stupid post though. You didn't refute anything important.

Good, fuck the death penalty. If you enjoy the fact that the goverment is killing people, you're a fucking psychopath.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;35731498]Yes. People tend to become more wise as they grow older. The people often change their views over time.[/QUOTE] yeah, but you've got to keep in mind how important a life is; it's the single most valuable possession someone can ever own. if we trust that old people just happen to know everything they ever could about this particular person (things like their psyche, the situation that led them to commit their crime) just because they are old and "they've seen a lot", I have to wonder how far you've thought this through [editline]27th April 2012[/editline] also I thought you were done with arguing

[QUOTE=Cone;35731582]yeah, but you've got to keep in mind how important a life is; it's the single most valuable possession someone can ever own.[/quote] And they're keeping it. In prison. Never to be released. Like the public wants. Like the court recommended. Like the politicians who fight crime need. [QUOTE=Cone;35731582]if we trust that old people just happen to know everything they ever could about this particular person (things like their psyche, the situation that led them to commit their crime) just because they are old and "they've seen a lot", I have to wonder how far you've thought this through[/QUOTE] Again, focusing on nothing important. When I suggest that the user get more life experience, I'm suggesting that their views are unrealistic. [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Cone;35731582] also I thought you were done with arguing[/QUOTE] Oh so witty. I bet you're pleased that you got another banging, irrefutable point. Just like the one about severer not being a word. P.S. you're wrong.

It's a better point than "I'm older, therefore I'm right and you're wrong.".

[QUOTE=Numidium;35731657]It's a better point than "I'm older, therefore I'm right and you're wrong.".[/QUOTE] I see you still have failed at any basic reading comprehension. Nevermind though. No matter what unrealistic or impossible point you argue, you are correct Numidum. Good on you. You have convinced me. I personally cannot wait to meet my new neighbour. I hear he's fresh outta prison.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;35731613]And they're keeping it. In prison. Never to be released. Like the public wants. Like the court recommended. Like the politicians who fight crime need.[/QUOTE] right, the public knows best but you know, this ill-defined "public" happens to consist of everyone from soccer moms to people like you and me and, guess what, every single person who is a part of the "public" is liable to be really, really stupid, so I don't think just saying "well there's lots of them and I guess they can't [I]all[/I] be wrong" isn't going to cut it also, again, courts can and have proven to be wrong in the past. shocking I know, but the justice system is riddled with flaws and, even if it wasn't, I still have to question why they are the infallible deciders of one's right to life simply because they are government-appointed also lol at the politicians fighting crime [I]needing[/I] this, do you have any idea how much the death penalty costs per prisoner? 90K, versus the 40K of keeping them alive until they're fit for society. if you're gonna argue deterrence that [URL="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates#stateswithvwithout"]doesn't work[/URL], because 90% of all murders are done by frustrated individuals in the heat of the moment, not planned out from Mt Doom months ahead of time. and anyone who actually would plan it out is batshit insane anyway, and that's a curable issue right there [editline]27th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=DogGunn;35731613]Oh so witty. I bet you're pleased that you got another banging, irrefutable point. Just like the one about severer not being a word. P.S. you're wrong.[/QUOTE] witty? no, you seriously said you were done [QUOTE=DogGunn;35731268]Regardless, I'm out of this argument.[/QUOTE] I'm not being sarcastic or anything, it's right freaking there, "[B]I'm out of this argument[/B]"

[QUOTE=DogGunn;35731697]I see you still have failed at any basic reading comprehension. Nevermind though. No matter what unrealistic or impossible point you argue, you are correct Numidum. Good on you. You have convinced me. I personally cannot wait to meet my new neighbour. I hear he's fresh outta prison.[/QUOTE] Wow. I bet you really are the kinda person that'd dislike a guy without even knowing him because he's been in prison. And reading comprehension comments from someone that couldn't understand a single line sentence last page.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;35731697]I personally cannot wait to meet my new neighbour. I hear he's fresh outta prison.[/QUOTE] I want you to guess why people fresh out of prison are still just as bad as when they went in hint: it's not because they think they deserved their time there

[QUOTE=Cone;35731735]right, the public knows best but you know, this ill-defined "public" happens to consist of everyone from soccer moms to people like you and me and, guess what, every single person who is a part of the "public" is liable to be really, really stupid, so I don't think just saying "well there's lots of them and I guess they can't [I]all[/I] be wrong" isn't going to cut it[/quote] Welcome to life. Welcome to how our system is meant to operate. Not everything is fair. Not everything can be fair. [QUOTE=Cone;35731735]also, again, courts can and have proven to be wrong in the past. shocking I know, but the justice system is riddled with flaws and, even if it wasn't, I still have to question why they are the infallible deciders of one's right to life simply because they are government-appointed[/quote] Give me a break. They are not the "infallible deciders of one's right to life", that's the jury. Anything past that is due to decision made by a cross section of the community. I also never suggested that the court system is flawless, however, it is to be expected that flaws do occur. That is why there are more courts, and more systems in instances in which a miscarriage has occurred. [QUOTE=Cone;35731735]also lol at the politicians fighting crime [I]needing[/I] this[/quote] Was tongue in cheek. [QUOTE=Cone;35731735]do you have any idea how much the death penalty costs per prisoner? 90K, versus the 40K of keeping them alive until they're fit for society.[/quote] I'm not advocating the death penalty. But hey, keep it going. Keep telling me about the death penalty. [QUOTE=Cone;35731735]I'm not being sarcastic or anything, it's right freaking there, "[B]I'm out of this argument[/B]"[/QUOTE] Again, what a witty argument. Instead this time, you actually replied to something with more substance! [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Numidium;35731756]Wow. I bet you really are the kinda person that'd dislike a guy without even knowing him because he's been in prison.[/QUOTE] Of course I'd judge convicted murders before I met them. If you didn't hold any prejudice whatsoever, you'd be the most amazing and perfect person in the world. [QUOTE=Numidium;35731756]And reading comprehension comments from someone that couldn't understand a single line sentence last page.[/QUOTE] You are a pseudointellectual. What you suggested previously had no impact on the discussion. It was literally just a bunch of words tied up.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;35731865]Welcome to life. Welcome to how our system is meant to operate. Not everything is fair. Not everything can be fair. [/QUOTE] wait what I didn't even say anything about fairness, I said the public is way too stupid and unreliable to deal with a matter as important as this [QUOTE=DogGunn;35731865]Give me a break. They are not the "infallible deciders of one's right to life", that's the jury. Anything past that is due to decision made by a cross section of the community. I also never suggested that the court system is flawless, however, it is to be expected that flaws do occur.[/QUOTE] so you know there are flaws and you expect me to just ignore them, when dealing with a person's life? there will be flaws, yes, but unless you want A) innocent people dying and B) money being wasted, it would be easier just to ensure someone's right to life never even enters the equation [QUOTE=DogGunn;35731865]I'm not advocating the death penalty. But hey, keep it going. Keep telling me about the death penalty.[/QUOTE] you don't even know about the full consequences of this and you're still rolling with it what made you think this was a well thought-out and sound course of action [QUOTE=DogGunn;35731865]Again, what a witty argument. Instead this time, you actually replied to something with more substance![/QUOTE] this isn't even an argument, it says right there, in [I][B]black and fucking white[/B][/I], that you are done with this

"You are a pseudointellectual" Damn you sure showed me. Hey guess what guys, I don't understand this sentence that one guy wrote, he must be a pseudointellectual or somethin, it couldn't possibly be me misunderstanding the entire point of debating the death penalty and his analogy on top of that. Let me have a go at wild claims too. You're an asshole. You judge people based on the punishment they received from a legal system you yourself called injust. You acknowledge that the legal system is fucked up but you're apparently against changing fucked up things because well, that's just how they are. You know that lots of stuff is unfair, yet you make no attempt to change it and actively try to stop others changing it. I can do this too, you see. And it works a lot better because my starting position isn't "I don't understand this" and you said all of that during the last 2 pages.

so much dumb in one thread this is a good thing, you twats

hey folks just so you know the angry expert schtick is my thing and it only works if you're actually an expert in something

but

Good. Just put them life in prison without parole and get them occupied in prison jobs.

[QUOTE=W00tbeer1;35733702]Good. Just put them life in prison without parole and get them occupied in prison jobs.[/QUOTE] yep let them suffer for the rest of their lives in a corrupt penal system thats so much more humane!!

[QUOTE=Cone;35731953]so you know there are flaws and you expect me to just ignore them, when dealing with a person's life? there will be flaws, yes, but unless you want A) innocent people dying and B) money being wasted, it would be easier just to ensure someone's right to life never even enters the equation you don't even know about the full consequences of this and you're still rolling with it [/QUOTE] Holy moly what? Yes there are always going to be flaws in a system, however it still must operate. Even with such flaws, they still must decide on how that person will spend the next X years. As mentioned previously, there are safe guards in place too incase the court gets it wrong. What a terrible argument. [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Numidium;35732314]"You are a pseudointellectual" Damn you sure showed me. Hey guess what guys, I don't understand this sentence that one guy wrote, he must be a pseudointellectual or somethin, it couldn't possibly be me misunderstanding the entire point of debating the death penalty and his analogy on top of that.[/quote] You simply have no idea what you're referring to. You're either too young or too stupid to have any relevant opinion. [QUOTE=Numidium;35732314]You're an asshole. You judge people based on the punishment they received from a legal system you yourself called injust. You acknowledge that the legal system is fucked up but you're apparently against changing fucked up things because well, that's just how they are. You know that lots of stuff is unfair, yet you make no attempt to change it and actively try to stop others changing it.[/quote] No sorry, I judge people based upon merit. If they've been convicted of murder, then that's an issue with their character. Incase you didn't realise, murder is the premeditated killing of another person. Regardless of me being an asshole, I'm amazed you can keep a straight face when you suggest that such a judgement by me is wrong. As for the judicial system being injust… one party is always going to have it unfair, since they are the ones losing their freedoms. [QUOTE=Numidium;35732314]I can do this too, you see. And it works a lot better because my starting position isn't "I don't understand this" and you said all of that during the last 2 pages.[/QUOTE] I never stated I don't understand. Where has this terrible assumption come from? And without a doubt, I have a better understanding of the operation of the legal ayatem then you do. So, its probably in your best interest to stop these terrible assumptions.

[QUOTE=Carne;35717023]So you are happy they're abolishing the death penalty, yet you hope they get killed by inmates instead?[/QUOTE] Not that I agree with him, but I'd say the worst bit of the death penalty is knowing the date you're going to be killed, and counting down the days.

I support this, I think the death penalty is the easy way out.

[QUOTE=winsanity;35737855]I support this, I think the death penalty is the easy way out.[/QUOTE] Yeah I agree. I'm so glad the American prison system is so shitty that some people consider it worse than death. That way petty criminals can be turned into hardened criminals during their imprisonment. Totally worth your hard-on for watching criminal scum squirm am I right?

[QUOTE=PieClock;35737792]Not that I agree with him, but I'd say the worst bit of the death penalty is knowing the date you're going to be killed, and counting down the days.[/QUOTE] The thing is though when you're on death row you don't know when your execution date will be. You can be on death row for years, even decades, just waiting for the last minute of them pulling you out to execute you.