Oculus ordered to pay $500 million in ZeniMax lawsuit - Polidicks

[QUOTE=AntonioR;51762436]There is no talk about Carmack being guilty for anything.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Zombii;51762446]it began over carmack moonlighting for oculus as a startup while he was still under the employment of zenimax. [/QUOTE] Zenimax allowing Carmack to seek outside employment didn't grant Oculus intellectual property rights over material developed at Zenimax. They're going after Luckey and Iribe because they're the ones who misappropriated Zenimax's IP. If Carmack was also under a restriction against sharing IP, then they can go after him too, but that doesn't mean his involvement is irrelevant to the case against Oculus.

this thread is moving pretty fast and i'd like to respond to move posters but after reading some posts here i need to go read the actual court filings and proceedings in order to figure out the exact details. ill come back with another post when i've read up

[QUOTE=catbarf;51762485]Zenimax allowing Carmack to seek outside employment didn't grant Oculus intellectual property rights over material developed at Zenimax. They're going after Luckey and Iribe because they're the ones who misappropriated Zenimax's IP. If Carmack was also under a restriction against sharing IP, then they can go after him too, but that doesn't mean his involvement is irrelevant to the case against Oculus.[/QUOTE] I think it would be best if some expert read the verdict and gave full explanation, because these articles are open to interpretation, and after reading some of them and then the comments, I am not sure what it means. Check this out: [URL="http://www.pcworld.com/article/3164263/consumer-electronics/oculus-cleared-of-stealing-vr-secrets-in-zenimax-lawsuit-but-still-must-pay-500-million.html"]http://www.pcworld.com/article/3164263/consumer-electronics/oculus-cleared-of-stealing-vr-secrets-in-zenimax-lawsuit-but-still-must-pay-500-million.html[/URL] [QUOTE] Nearly three years after ZeniMax first filed suit against Oculus for “illegally misappropriating ZeniMax trade secrets relating to virtual reality technology,” the case has finally drawn to a close—though likely not to ZeniMax’s satisfaction. [B]Oculus is cleared of any charges related to stolen assets and expertise, and thus can presumably continue to sell its Oculus Rift virtual reality headset uninterrupted.[/B] Not that Oculus escaped entirely without penalty. [U]One of ZeniMax’s secondary complaints involved breach of contract on Luckey’s part, with Zenimax alleging that Luckey violated an NDA by using its intellectual property (specifically Doom 3: BFG Edition) in—among other things—the original Rift Kickstarter video. For its troubles, ZeniMax was awarded $500 million by the jury.[/U] But that’s it, and $500 million is a far cry from the $2 billion in compensation and $2 billion in damages that ZeniMax originally asked for. Nor will ZeniMax have any hold on Oculus going forward. That’s important, given the case hinged on ZeniMax trying to prove that ex-id employee John Carmack stole VR tech on his way out the door, and that Palmer Luckey didn’t have the expertise to create the Rift on his own. If true, that would’ve put the company in an awkward position, with Oculus owing its success entirely to ZeniMax. The actual outcome, albeit still containing a hefty penalty for Oculus to pay, at least keeps the company intact and day-to-day operations moving forward.[/QUOTE]

okay, so from what i've read, it all seems to boil down to this. when carmack began to work with luckey, he altered the headset in a meaningful way (in zenimax's own words 'totally transformed'). then, when carmack gave the altered headset back to luckey, luckey signed an nda because carmack had worked on the device, and pursuant to this part of carmacks employment contract with zenimax ([url]http://i.imgur.com/1mVxfCp.png[/url]), anything he worked on automatically became zenimax's IP. the problem arises, i believe, in that zenimax does not know exactly what they're litigating over. they're simply litigating over the fact that carmack touched the device, he had that paragraph in his contract, and then it became a success. they do not mention any specific technologies or code that was misappropriated by oculus, merely repeatedly stating that 'luckey did not have the technical expertise to create the advances in the headset that he claims he did' and also that he and the rest of oculus vr did not have the expertise to create the oculus sdk, so therefore carmack must have created it, so therefore it must be zenimax's ip. the nda breaking comes from the fact that the boilerplate nda they signed says they can't transfer anything covered under the nda to a third party without express permission, so when they sold oculus to facebook, they broke the terms of their nda. also, carmack, luckey, and abrash are specifically named as defendants in the court document, so afaik they can't be persecuted again under double jeopardy? although i am unaware of how double jeopardy applies to civic cases or suits. so they may be able to hound them for as long as they want.

[QUOTE=J!NX;51762275]It'd be bullshit if VR died for a while because of outside non-sense mainly because dipshits wouldn't be able to get over themselves and their "ITS A GIMMICK" talks[/QUOTE] It is a gimmick though.

[QUOTE=Amakir;51762769]It is a gimmick though.[/QUOTE] Says increasingly nervous man after VR continues to grow each year with billions in investments.

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;51762110]Seems kinda excessive, no?[/QUOTE] For companies of this size, not even kinda. It also would not be paid at once, and it also seen within the case itself as the bar being set rather than summary because the judge and both sides know plainly this is round one of several. [editline]1st February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Amakir;51762769]It is a gimmick though.[/QUOTE] It's a gimmick right now, and the 17% of the world not being able to use it means it'll never have full saturation, but it is quite plainly where things will eventually be going for a good chunk of several mediums for a good measure of time.

silver lining, facebook will pay this off through trial insurance and occy will move forward without having to have zenimax on their ass. the court didnt determine that they stole IP so they dont have to license or pay any back royalties just breach of an NDA.

I went into this thread hoping that Oculus had done something terrible and were caught out on it. But an NDA violation? It should definitely get appealed and reduced, there's no way that's worth $500m.

[QUOTE=Tracker;51763859]I went into this thread hoping that Oculus had done something terrible and were caught out on it. But an NDA violation? It should definitely get appealed and reduced, there's no way that's worth $500m.[/QUOTE] why would you hope that they did something terrible?

Sounds like a complete waste of time and money, they should have reached a settlement. 500 million is way too excessive, it's not as though Oculus stole something crucial to an upcoming game.

[QUOTE=RoboChimp;51764215]Sounds like a complete waste of time and money, they should have reached a settlement. 500 million is way too excessive, it's not as though Oculus stole something crucial to an upcoming game.[/QUOTE] They didn't steal anything. It was an NDA break. [editline]2nd February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=bitches;51763874]why would you hope that they did something terrible?[/QUOTE] Fanboys gonna fanboy

A comment from reddit explains the whole situation perfectly [QUOTE]If the original complaint is to be believed(1) - which Juror's found credible - the course of events, tldr was something like this: Zenimax bought ID software for >$100m(1) on June 24, 2009. Carmack signed up with Zenimax for an earn-out / golden-handcuffs agreement that ended in June of 2013. Carmack was enthralled with VR. Carmack found Palmer via an internet forum, reached out to get a rift to try. Carmack tinkered with the Rift, adding sensors, building calibration, etc. while on the clock / using hardware from zenimax. Carmack brought a prototype of the Rift working on Doom 3 to E3 with him providing Oculus with their early press. Zenimax realized the extent to which Carmack was enabling Oculus and worked to negotiate equity with Brendan Iribe. Oculus sent Zenimax a proposal to discuss a partnership Sept 21, 2012 but never followed up / followed through. Carmack quit Zenimax the day his contract was up in June 2013, joined Oculus as CTO a few months later and took his 5 best guys with him. FB bought Oculus March 2014, Zenmix got pissed and sued. Clearly it's Carmack's genius that made this viable. It's Carmack's video that lent credibility to the campaign. And it's Carmack's original IP (Doom) that made the demos compelling. It may be a weird system that Zenimax is entitled to $500m but since Carmack was an employee, under contract with Zenimax - who had paid >$100m to buy him / his IP - it sounds like this was a fair verdict. [URL="https://www.scribd.com/document/274211118/Judge-denies-Facebook-motion"]https://www.scribd.com/document/274211118/Judge-denies-Facebook-motion [/URL][URL="http://www.gamespot.com/articles/zenimax-raised-105-million-to-buy-id/1100-6213068/"]http://www.gamespot.com/articles/zenimax-raised-105-million-to-buy-id/1100-6213068/[/URL][/QUOTE] It seems less malicious than I thought it was, just a creative dev who didn't really pay attention to the legal stuff.

Only just found out about this... what a fustercluck.

[QUOTE=Orkel;51764277] Fanboys gonna fanboy[/QUOTE] Personally I would rather someone be sued half a billion for something legitimate than not.

[QUOTE=Orkel;51764277]They didn't steal anything. It was an NDA break. [/QUOTE] But Carmack [i]admitted[/i] to stealing code dude

[QUOTE=Timebomb575;51779890]But Carmack [i]admitted[/i] to stealing code dude[/QUOTE] He brought along some code from RAGE, but none of it was used in Oculus' code base, or that's how the story seems to go.

[QUOTE=Orkel;51764277] Fanboys gonna fanboy[/QUOTE] I don't consider myself a fanboy (Though I could be), and I see this as: 1: Bad, because it could damage VR in the short-term. 2: Well deserved due to Oculus's timed-exclusives. VR needs competition, but I think Oculus is the wrong company to give it that.

I don't think having timed exclusives makes them deserve a $500m lawsuit.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;51768661]A comment from reddit explains the whole situation perfectly It seems less malicious than I thought it was, just a creative dev who didn't really pay attention to the legal stuff.[/QUOTE] So its literally was a case of Zenimax "owning Carmacks anus"

[QUOTE=Clavus;51780118][B]He brought along some code from RAGE[/B], but none of it was used in Oculus' code base, or that's how the story seems to go.[/QUOTE] Legally, this is the important part. Even if he wrote it the code belonged to ZeniMax.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;51780905]Legally, this is the important part. Even if he wrote it the code belonged to ZeniMax.[/QUOTE] And even if the code never wound up in the Oculus codebase, that's just why they weren't ruled to have misappropriated trade secrets. Using it as reference or inspiration without legal permission is still a misuse of Zenimax's IP and a pretty common example of corporate IP theft. Oculus didn't just do an NDA violation. Like, it's right there in the OP. They were found guilty of copyright infringement and false designation. If anything in this thread is 'fanboys gonna fanboy', it's pretending that deliberate misuse of another company's proprietary code [I]which Carmack directly admits[/I] [I]to[/I] isn't stealing tech.