Drones 'inhumane' dead Al-Qaeda man's family says...(irony?)
136 replies, posted
[QUOTE=neigleig;36229185]Of course i would, I mean it would be near impossible to support a country halfway across the world always watching over you, considering you no more than collateral damage if they killed you in an attempt to take out another target, but there is really no GOOD way to carry out these missions, and the position that the coalition countries and the middle east is in is terrible.[/QUOTE]
Boots on the ground are always going to be better at discriminating between hostiles and civilians, and go a hell of a lot farther towards building respect and trust with the locals, than random anti-tank missiles falling out of the sky.
Killing civilians en masse is the kind of thing that gets to be labeled a war crime, especially when the people you're killing aren't even involved in the conflict. Just because it's more convenient for your own military isn't an excuse.
Let's use a well-worn example. Do you think the Germans would have gotten off scot-free in WW2 if they just dropped mustard gas on districts believed to be harboring members of the French Resistance, instead of risking their own lives by going in person? Hell no, it'd be a monumental war crime and we'd have strung up the perpetrators ASAP.
[QUOTE=catbarf;36229383]Boots on the ground are always going to be better at discriminating between hostiles and civilians, and go a hell of a lot farther towards building respect and trust with the locals, than random anti-tank missiles falling out of the sky.
Killing civilians en masse is the kind of thing that gets to be labeled a war crime, especially when the people you're killing aren't even involved in the conflict. Just because it's more convenient for your own military isn't an excuse.
Let's use a well-worn example. Do you think the Germans would have gotten off scot-free in WW2 if they just dropped mustard gas on districts believed to be harboring members of the French Resistance, instead of risking their own lives by going in person? Hell no, it'd be a monumental war crime and we'd have strung up the perpetrators ASAP.[/QUOTE]
Unless the germans won.
Do you think the usa dropping atomic bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki would not be considered warcrimes if we lost?
[QUOTE=Kopimi;36228580]a. missing the piont
b. i don't think the brother is even a member of al qaeda, unless im misreading the article[/QUOTE]
[url=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/irony]Irony.[/url]
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;36229417][url=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/irony]Irony.[/url][/QUOTE]
a. irony doesn't make his point any less valid
b. it isn't ironic if he ISNT IN AL QAEDA
[QUOTE=catbarf;36229383]Boots on the ground are always going to be better at discriminating between hostiles and civilians, and go a hell of a lot farther towards building respect and trust with the locals, than random anti-tank missiles falling out of the sky.
Killing civilians en masse is the kind of thing that gets to be labeled a war crime, especially when the people you're killing aren't even involved in the conflict. Just because it's more convenient for your own military isn't an excuse.
Let's use a well-worn example. Do you think the Germans would have gotten off scot-free in WW2 if they just dropped mustard gas on districts believed to be harboring members of the French Resistance, instead of risking their own lives by going in person? Hell no, it'd be a monumental war crime and we'd have strung up the perpetrators ASAP.[/QUOTE]
Boots on the ground are by far much better at discriminating between hostiles and civilians, but the United States has made a decision on how it wishes to wage war. And while drones are extremely controversial, they are effective in many situations, and the military is in a bad position where no matter what method they choose, lives will be lost.
[QUOTE=Lizzrd;36226985]I agree with this man, the predator drones totally need more lasers.[/QUOTE]
They actually are planning to put lasers on some new version of the predator drone. It's nowhere close to being done, but they're getting there.
[QUOTE=Bobie;36228019]what a fucking horrible outlook on the deaths of millions, and the destruction of thousands of innocents' homes. sure it's hypocritical for either sides to talk about 'humane' killings, but if the US ever actually wants to [i]help[/i] the middle east, it's not done through firing missiles at people they see holding ak47s through a tiny camera. drones should be for reconnaissance, not a missile that's going to cause a shitload of collateral
'they started it' just doesn't cut it over 10 years on from 9/11, now the world's most expensive military has to decide whether or not they're childishly killing and periodically executing people they believe to be dangerous through robots or whether or not they're actually protecting the people of these countries.[/QUOTE]
It's not about helping anyone. It's about revenge.
They have a point. Al Qaeda's men are willing to die to inflict damage on their enemies, while we murder our enemies with remote-controlled toys from halfway around the world.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;36229708]It's not about helping anyone. It's about revenge.[/QUOTE]
well i hope that after 6,000+ americans and hundreds of thousands of dead civilians there is some sort of satisfaction for you then
You could post this article word for word on the onion and nobody would bat an eyelid.
[QUOTE=WubWubWompWomp;36229885]You could post this article word for word on the onion and nobody would bat an eyelid.[/QUOTE]
lmao if anything The Onion would satirize the United States' self-righteous attitude about human rights while killing thousands of innocent people
if would have said it in context of the recent nato strike which killed 18 women and children, it wouldve made sense
but this is just non-sense. his brother was involved in a war. not a criminal vs cop fight out .
[QUOTE=Kopimi;36229741]well i hope that after 6,000+ americans and hundreds of thousands of dead civilians there is some sort of satisfaction for you then[/QUOTE]
Not for me. I don't care about revenge nor do I support the war. I'm talking about the current motive.
Almost had a stroke trying to read the thread title... some punctuation would help.
So a drone that can using sensors, designate SPECIFIC people and can wait until someone is away from civilian targets where he can be eliminated without suffering from an attack that isn't very likely to leave cripples is inhumane.
It is safer then using squads to go these houses and gunning them down in the village because there is even the most season soldiers can miss and that miss might send little Ahmed or little Muhammad to his god. Or when Officers call in airstrikes on zones where they are taking fire from unaware there are kids inside because a squad can only see from their perspective while a drone can wait out for a target to separate themselves.
More over what is this bullshit "We have to be better then them". No we don't, that is a lie you tell your little kid when he comes home and asks why he got beat up. You don't have to be better then your opponent to win you only have to be human.
A victor is determined in war when one side is either unable to fight or chooses not to fight. I wonder how much longer they wish to fight an opponent that can blow away their soldiers 20,000 miles away when they aren't hiding behind the citizens that 'protect' them.
[QUOTE=redshift2234;36230644]So a drone that can using sensors, [B]designate SPECIFIC people and can wait until someone is away from civilian targets where he can be eliminated without suffering from an attack that isn't very likely to leave cripples[/B] is inhumane.
It is safer then using squads to go these houses and gunning them down in the village because there is even the most season soldiers can miss and that miss might send little Ahmed or little Muhammad to his god. Or when Officers call in airstrikes on zones where they are taking fire from unaware there are kids inside because a squad can only see from their perspective while a drone can wait out for a target to separate themselves.
More over what is this bullshit "We have to be better then them". No we don't, that is a lie you tell your little kid when he comes home and asks why he got beat up. You don't have to be better then your opponent to win you only have to be human.
A victor is determined in war when one side is either unable to fight or chooses not to fight. I wonder how much longer they wish to fight an opponent that can blow away their soldiers 20,000 miles away when they aren't hiding behind the citizens that 'protect' them.[/QUOTE]
yeah, gonna go ahead and skip reading the rest of this post until you do some research on how drone strikes work
[editline]7th June 2012[/editline]
ok i caved and read your line about "choosing victors in war"
you realize that the drone strikes just drive up recruitment for al qaeda because people who have lost loved ones to drone strikes and other events brought on by the war say "hm.. i wonder who i will side with, the people killing my family, or the people killing the people who killed my family.."
Yes but we are looking at two sides who both have the mentality of "If we kill enough people they will stop coming" So doesn't it seem like this conflict will be decided by who's population will run out first?
[QUOTE=redshift2234;36230707]Yes but we are looking at two sides who both have the mentality of "If we kill enough people they will stop coming" So doesn't it seem like this conflict will be decided by who's population will run out first?[/QUOTE]
there's literally no way i could craft a response to make you look any more ridiculous than you do right now
good luck wiping out the entire population of afghanistan (and neighboring countries) then because honestly if your understanding of war is so simple as "kill all da bad guys" there's not much i can do in the way of convincing you otherwise
I think we should just go back to the old Revolutionary War type fighting, then neither side can complain about it being unfair.
Should have cut his head off and put it on youtube
Much more humane
[QUOTE=King Tiger;36229708]It's not about helping anyone. It's about revenge.[/QUOTE]
revenge is a cliche that no longer exists in society other than in films and backward ass countries, it doesn't exist in the justice system so why should it be a part of america's strong arm of justice?
[QUOTE=catbarf;36227692]The irony of his statement is the [I]point[/I] of it.
A Humvee hits an IED and it kills a bunch of soldiers, and we call them cowards and savages. Then we hit an informant with a Hellfire strike, and wipe out an apartment block, civilians and all- and that's noble and justified, while their method isn't? That's the point. We can't claim the moral high ground on our methods if we're producing collateral damage the same way they are, if we're doing the exact same thing.
Look at the first quote:
That's the point right there. It's not about the fact that we're using such techniques, it's that we're using such techniques while simultaneously claiming to be more moral and more just. He's not saying Al Qaeda isn't guilty, he's calling us hypocrites.
Edit: Not that I'm I agree with Al-Qaeda, fuck 'em to hell, but it is a valid question to raise and it's one we as a nation need to discuss and come to terms with. The use of drones is changing the nature of modern conflicts and when we're replacing precision raids conducted by boots on the ground with long-range missile strikes with serious potential for collateral damage, we start to have problems with our image as 'good guys'.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but how many civilians have they killed in comparison to NATO? Also, this is war - as horrible as it sounds, civilians will always be caught in the middle.
It's an honour thing I think. Al-Qaeda is big on honour (at least publically), but their idea of honour is different to ours so it makes no sense to us, like suicide bombing is a huge honour because they're martyring themselves for Islam.
Maybe they see it as a basic human right that you should have the ability to wound or damage your attacker in return, with a drone that's removed and you just become a bit of a pig up for slaughter, there's no honour in fighting a drone either
[QUOTE=killerteacup;36233056]It's an honour thing I think. Al-Qaeda is big on honour (at least publically), but their idea of honour is different to ours so it makes no sense to us, like suicide bombing is a huge honour because they're martyring themselves for Islam.
Maybe they see it as a basic human right that you should have the ability to wound or damage your attacker in return, with a drone that's removed and you just become a bit of a pig up for slaughter, there's no honour in fighting a drone either[/QUOTE]
Whereas we favour common sense - killing the enemy with minimal risk to our own personnel, as well as not blowing ourselves up.
Although, in seriousness, I would ask where the honour is in directly targeting civillians and using IEDs.
[QUOTE=David29;36233095]Whereas we favour common sense - killing the enemy with minimal risk to our own personnel, as well as not blowing ourselves up.
Although, in seriousness, I would ask where the honour is in directly targeting civillians and using IEDs.[/QUOTE]
It's an honourable pursuit according to their ideals so it makes sense to them
Not as much to us
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;36226963]Yes, because the way they kill us is so nice.[/QUOTE]
so we kill them.
great circular logic bro hope u get elected 4 president :)
[editline]7th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=David29;36233095]Whereas we favour common sense - killing the enemy with minimal risk to our own personnel, as well as not blowing ourselves up.
Although, in seriousness, I would ask where the honour is in directly targeting civillians and using IEDs.[/QUOTE]
Haha yeah you know those puny brown people!!! they blow themselves up n shit cos they dont value life n all it's not like terrorism is the only possible strategy they have left to fight a behemoth military they couldn't possibly otherwise fight. Newsflash: we c00l and righteous and white westerners actually force these people to give up the only things they have left, their lives, in order to make a statement against our bloody and violent imperialism but luckily our centralized news media can lie about the facts and tell us that those dirty terrists had it coming because they aint white and christian and they wont bow to our imperial oppression :) yeehaw go america dude
[QUOTE=Isuzu;36233152]so we kill them.
great circular logic bro hope u get elected 4 president :)
[editline]7th June 2012[/editline]
Haha yeah you know those puny brown people!!! they blow themselves up n shit cos they dont value life n all it's not like terrorism is the only possible strategy they have left to fight a behemoth military they couldn't possibly otherwise fight. Newsflash: we c00l and righteous and white westerners actually force these people to give up the only things they have left, their lives, in order to make a statement against our bloody and violent imperialism but luckily our centralized news media can lie about the facts and tell us that those dirty terrists had it coming because they aint white and christian and they wont bow to our imperial oppression :) yeehaw go america dude[/QUOTE]
I think you put less thought into your posts then I do jackass.
[quote]so we kill them.
great circular logic bro hope u get elected 4 president :)[/quote]
I don't get it.
Hey guys remember when a bunch of kids carrying firewood were blown up because the operators of the drone thought the were carrying RPGs?
Yeah, I understand that may have been an accident, but the guy in the article has a point. The US talks about freedom when shit like that happens.
[QUOTE=Araknid;36233551]Hey guys remember when a bunch of kids carrying firewood were blown up because the operators of the drone thought the were carrying RPGs?
Yeah, I understand that may have been an accident, but the guy in the article has a point. The US talks about freedom when shit like that happens.[/QUOTE]
Im not saying its ok, but in war both sides are going to end up killing civilians accidentally. Sucks that they died, but that shit is going to happen regardless of what weapons we use.
Unmanned drones
[i]inhumane[/i]
[sp]geddit? it's because there's nobody in there LOL![/sp]
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.