Newfoundland Driving School to Stop Teaching Stick Shift - Polidicks

Huh I guess in USA, at least in most parts you don't even get to choose? Or you guys did not even bother looking into it?

For every manual superiorist that has been handed down a parents car, or had help with its purchase, should have no opinion in the matters. For most people cars are simply a necessary aspect of life. Would most people love to drive some sporty manual that maxes out over 80 mph? Sure, but for many you get what you can and you don't complain about it.

[QUOTE=codenamecueball;48025445]lol have you ever tried to accelerate in an auto on the A9 trying to push past 90mph to overtake a motorhome on one of the only straight sections for 20 miles. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] protip: you need a manual car to at least try that without dying[/QUOTE] do you drive soup cans in the uk or something because my audi goes 90mph with 0 effort

[QUOTE=DanTehMan;48026318]For every manual superiorist that has been handed down a parents car, or had help with its purchase, should have no opinion in the matters. [/QUOTE] i wish people would stop having this attitude, like what is it even meant to mean, someone helped you purchase a car? wow big deal

[QUOTE=keda009;48026293]Huh I guess in USA, at least in most parts you don't even get to choose? Or you guys did not even bother looking into it?[/QUOTE] in the us, very little people have interest in buying vehicles with manual transmissions personally i see it as antiquated it certainly isn't seen as a technologically advanced thing to have a manual [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] even in luxury cars i think it's a dated concept i want a vehicle that turns on when i sit down, i shouldn't even have to bother with a key besides having it on my person tesla gets this right

basically americans drive automatics because that's the norm everywhere else doesn't because that isn't the norm who gives a shit end thread

[QUOTE=Morgen;48025576]If you plan your journey properly not really. Range anxiety goes away a couple of months after owning a long range electric car like the Model S. [video=youtube;cU_otU6BuwM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU_otU6BuwM[/video][/QUOTE] Mmm, yeah I like not having to plan my trips in advance simply so I can make it home again. [QUOTE=Colliseemoe;48025547] If you're in an area with constant stop-go traffic then manual transmission can fuck right off.[/QUOTE] I've never felt like my experience would be improved if my car was more automated. Not even in stop/go traffic. I have no trouble whatsoever handling it with a stick, I don't get the problem. [QUOTE=catbarf;48025524] like manual transmissions being cheaper[/quote] They are, though. It costs less to produce a manual gearbox, less to install one. Dealers will try to jack up the price but you can almost always twist their arm with the 'Itt'l sit on the lot for the next year and a half if you don't cut me a deal on it' lever. [quote] and more fuel efficient,[/quote] Impossible. You're turning a hydraulic pump at all times, one that manuals don't have. That takes fuel. you've got an inefficient, highly lossy fluid coupling between engine and transmission that slips incessantly as per normal operation and won't engage the lockup clutch until in high gear. You still lose a siginificant chunk of fuel to an automatic that you won't lose to a manual, it's just all in the city mileage. [quote]It's not a necessary skill for young drivers that will probably never have to drive manual.[/QUOTE] But they need to have it. Scenario 1: Drunk driver runs a red light, T-bones ya. You're fine, your car's six kinds of fucked, and the only loaner car you can get your hands on has a third pedal. Since you know how to drive a stick, you're fine, but if you never learned how to drive stick you're in a whole heap of shit. Scenario 2: Your daily is in the shop for pretty major work. Will be a few days. The only loaner you can get is, you guessed it, equipped with a manual. Not being able to drive that car is a huge problem. Scenario 3: You just got a new job. It's the only one in your area that's available, pays decently, and requires you to drive a company car......which has a stickshift. If you cannot drive it you get unemployed in a hurry, and remember the job market's dead so that unemployment's not gonna be a short duration stint. It's a vital skill that every single driver should have even if they never touch a manual again. You never know when life might just force you into one. [QUOTE=paul simon;48025461][citation needed] The fastest cars I've been in have been automatic.[/QUOTE] The computer logic can be pants on a lot of cars. My mom's '97 Explorer is an automatic, electronically controlled OD 5-speed with lockup converter, and it can't really pick a gear when you suddenly jump on it. The computer ponders for a few moments, then "....hmm, okay let's unlock the converter...still needs more revs...BANG DOWN THREE GEARS LETS GO RACIN'!...OHSIT OVERREV where'd I put fourth gear? Oh fuggit here's third." Stoopid thing. Most frustrating part of it is that it doesn't even need to kick down, the motor pulls hard enough to get the job done while still in lock-up OD. [QUOTE=paul simon;48025315]Lots of cars are manual, it's good knowledge to have in case you get into a situation where you have to drive one. I hear that automatics are extremely common in the US though.[/QUOTE] Fun fact: You cannot buy a brand new half-ton pickup truck in the United States with a manual transmission. Ford, Chevy flat out do not sell a pickup of ANY configuration with a manual. Toyota and Nissan don't make 3/4 ton or 1-tons, but AFAIK their quarter tons can be had with a stick. Dodge will sell you a 3/4 ton with a manual but you must order the Cummins diesel with it. You cannot have the 5.7 HEMI or V10 with a manual. It's infuriating. I know the absolute newest model year I could replace my '85 F150 with is about 2005 or so. SUV? HAH fat chance, not a single one on the market with a third pedal. Want something a bit more fuel miserly? You have to special order it, dealer lots won't stock sedans, hatchbacks and the like with manuals in America. They don't sell, they just sit there and rust, so you have to poke and prod them into ordering one all while constantly turning down the deluge of 'But this model on the lot is everything you want except it's got an automatic in it!' offers. Pretty much the only things you'll ever find on an American new car lot with a third pedal are Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, Challenger. [QUOTE=demoguy08;48025409]I'd like to add: - Engine braking. Reduces fuel consumtion to ZERO while slowing down the car and maintaining torque. Simply releasing the gas pedal and braking will NOT have this effect, especially not in an automatic. - Jumping gears. The single most fuel conserving action you can take besides not braking and accelerating like an idiot.[/QUOTE] Modifying shift points, too. Good acceleration might have you upshifting at 2750RPM, but you can find an assload of fuel economy by grabbing the next gear at just 1800 or so instead. I will admit I don't skip gears much these days, but then again I only have four of them to choose from, and with my rear gears and my powerband(~900RPM to ~2500RPM) I don't really need to skip gears.

[QUOTE=TestECull;48025157]You say that, yet flagdog indicates you live in a country where not having a car means you are six kinds of fucked. I find it hilarious how out of touch you are with how things actually work in this country. Not having a car is viable for a handful of percent of the population. The sweeping majority of Americans could not function without a car of some sort, and most of us commute at least 15 minutes a day. Commutes of up to two HOURS are not unheard of. America could not operate without the motorcar, simple as that. Owning a car and having a license are just as important to living in this country as having a place to live. Hmm. Let's see here. 1: Gas Mileage. Modern automatics are still trash at efficiency and you'll see massive gains in city mileage. Lockup converters do nothing below 45MPH or so and you're always going to have losses in the rotating mass of all those planetary gearsets, clutch packs and whatnot. Oh, and losses from the hydraulic pump. None of that shit is free, guess what's gotta turn it all. Oh, and if what you're driving is a bit older and lacks an overdrive auto? It's six kinds of ridiculous how much more fuel efficient the manual version is. My '85 F150 is averaging 20-22 miles per gallon right now. 50% of that is that I'm staying on backroads and 50% of that is the overdrive [i]manual[/i] gearbox in it. IF I had the automatic, all other things being equal, I'd be seeing about 14 or 15 on a good day, realistic about 12-14. 2: Reliability. There's less shit to go wrong and what is there is far more durable. 3: Lighter. Automatics are porkers. 4: Longevity. Automatics have a LOT of wear parts in them and rarely make it past 200,000 miles. A manual transmission not beat on? Lasts the life of the car. Mine's over 300K and it still shifts like brand fucking new. 5: Anti-theft. Having that extra pedal and that odd lever sticking out of the car is a stronger theft deterrent than every alarm and Lojac service [i]combined[/i]. Car thieves are looking for easy marks and none of the fuckers can drive stick, so they'll leave your car alone and go for the one with the automatic instead. 6: Control. You have the final say in what gear a manual is in. You have almost zero control over an automatic. You pull it down into D1? Yeah fuck it the computer WILL upshift if it thinks it needs to. Doesn't matter if you want it to or not. 7: Push starting. If you've got enough power to light the dome light you've got enough power to get your engine started. With an automatic you're left waiting for a jump, with a manual your battery has to be so heavily discharged that it requires replacement outright in order for it to not be able to get the car running. This also comes in handy if your starter conks out. I had to push start my truck for a week while I waiting for a paycheck to come in to replace the dead starter on it. 8: You'll have less requests to use your car, and the ones you do get can be easily denied by 'I don't want my clutch destroyed, so no'. 9: Cheaper to buy. You can leverage the dealer to cut you a better deal on these things by reminding the salesman that 'It's a stick, nobody else is gonna buy it. You either cut me this deal or I go elsewhere and that car sits on your lot for the next year and a half or so' 10: Cheaper to maintain. They don't need the same level of maintenance automatics do and their fluid changes are much cheaper/easier to perform. You say that, yet flagdog indicates you live in a country where not having a car means you are six kinds of fucked. I find it hilarious how out of touch you are with how things actually work in this country. Not having a car is viable for a handful of percent of the population. The sweeping majority of Americans could not function without a car of some sort, and most of us commute at least 15 minutes a day. Commutes of up to two HOURS are not unheard of. America could not operate without the motorcar, simple as that. Owning a car and having a license are just as important to living in this country as having a place to live.[/QUOTE] Few things; 1: This is pretty mixed. Like you said, it's usually when you compare non-overdrive automatics to overdrive manuals. The difference, when an auto is maintained right, is fairly insignificant. 2. Comes down to maintainance and brand. Some properly maintained autos crap out at 130k miles, others last forever. The bottom line? Buy a reliable brand, get a reliable automatic transmission. 3. They tend to weigh more from fluid, unless it's a low HP track car it doesn't matter much. 4. Not sure where you have heard the 200k mile thing. Some of the shitty transmissions, yes, they crap out before then. Good automatics? You can expect the life of the car out of them, 300k+ miles. Mine is at 230k something and shifts as new. 5. Will keep your car from being stolen, but not everything inside it like an alarm could. 6. You have control in decent automatics. My 4EAT computer doesn't force upshifts in any of the modes. I'm sure newer ones change that, though. 7. Any time I have had a battery die is where it couldn't be push started. 8. Learn to say 'No.' 9. You can generally haggle them to the same price out the door. 10. If you forget the clutch, pressure plate, etc, yes. With that, they cost more to maintain than an automatic.

[QUOTE=andrewmcwatters;48026435] i want a vehicle that turns on when i sit down, i shouldn't even have to bother with a key besides having it on my person[/QUOTE] What if you just want to sit inside without turning it on? Or you're fucking in it? Did tesla think of that?

[QUOTE=demoguy08;48025409]I'd like to add: - Engine braking. Reduces fuel consumtion to ZERO while slowing down the car and maintaining torque. Simply releasing the gas pedal and braking will NOT have this effect, especially not in an automatic. - Jumping gears. The single most fuel conserving action you can take besides not braking and accelerating like an idiot.[/QUOTE] Many automatics, at least my '99 Impreza and '84 Chevy diesel, can engine brake pretty good. Apparently as good as manuals, from what AA was saying. I can't see where you mean jumping gears saves fuel, though I usually shift in anticipation of what's to come to be ready for it.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;48026717]What if you just want to sit inside without turning it on? Or you're fucking in it? Did tesla think of that?[/QUOTE] yes actually

[QUOTE=zerosix;48026565]basically americans drive automatics because that's the norm everywhere else doesn't because that isn't the norm who gives a shit end thread[/QUOTE] Nah this is an interesting debate. I guess in the end it comes down to preference, but I'd still like to see statistical proof that autos are equal/more fuel efficient than manuals.

[QUOTE=DanTehMan;48026318]For every manual superiorist that has been handed down a parents car, or had help with its purchase, should have no opinion in the matters. For most people cars are simply a necessary aspect of life. Would most people love to drive some sporty manual that maxes out over 80 mph? Sure, but for many you get what you can and you don't complain about it.[/QUOTE] I'd get a manual, if I were the devil's lost child, or Jesus himself. Autos are a luxury here.

[QUOTE=DanTehMan;48026318]For every manual superiorist that has been handed down a parents car, or had help with its purchase, should have no opinion in the matters. For most people cars are simply a necessary aspect of life. Would most people love to drive some sporty manual that maxes out over 80 mph? Sure, but for many you get what you can and you don't complain about it.[/QUOTE] You like to think this, but you're wrong. The people you're thinking of are the minority. If they were the majority, we never would have got out of the 80's era of slabs with ridiculously high mileage. Every car out has a sport option, [I]every[/I] car. And I guarantee you they sell more than the base models.

The way the motor industry is going manual gearboxes might not be around much longer unfortunately, at least in mainstream applications. The vast, vast majority of cars sold in the United States (and increasingly elsewhere) are some form of automatic, which means that manufacturers are simply going to stop producing them. Ferrari does not currently sell a car with a manual gearbox and hasn't done for some time. It used to be that manual gearboxes were the better option for most applications, but the increasing efficiency of automatic boxes means that manuals are now becoming a niche that only appeals to enthusiasts. If a car to you is just a box that you commute and get your groceries in, there's no reason on paper you should have anything other than an automatic.

[QUOTE=FordLord;48026742]Many automatics, at least my '99 Impreza and '84 Chevy diesel, can engine brake pretty good. Apparently as good as manuals, from what AA was saying. I can't see where you mean jumping gears saves fuel, though I usually shift in anticipation of what's to come to be ready for it.[/QUOTE] Accelerating on 2nd gear and shifting to 4 when cruising speed is reached is more efficient than going sequentially up to 4. Same for 3 -> 5 (with the caveat that you need to spend as little time as possible accelerating, aka accelerate fast). As for engine braking - anticipating what's up ahead is the key. When coming up to a light, instead of braking and pushing down the clutch and going to first gear, release the gas. Continually shift down to second gear, and keep it in as long as you can. Chances are that the lights will switch and you can keep going. By doing this, you've still got almost all of the tourque left from when you started shifting down and thus will save a shit load of fuel that you'd waste accelerating up again from stand still 1st gear. Granted, many times you will have to come to a standstill anyway. But by releasing the gas early, you've still saved fuel. While that short stretch might seem insignificant, if you adopt this driving technique in most situations, you can save up to 15-20% on a tank. Source is my driver's ed.

Cars nowadays usually are all pretty much auto, but having stickshift knowledge is nice to have. Either way even if I might prefer auto I'd probably want to have stickshift knowledge for the hell of it.

I like manual because you feel much more connected with the car, however, performance wise, automatics are outpacing manuals. Besides shitty commuter cars with the cancerous cvt's or other "comfort" transmission, transmissions in sports cars like in the charger/camaro/mustang are faster than most people can shift. Yeah, it disconnects you from the car but if you're racing, you get what gives you the edge.

[QUOTE=demoguy08;48026810]Nah this is an interesting debate. I guess in the end it comes down to preference, but I'd still like to see statistical proof that autos are equal/more fuel efficient than manuals.[/QUOTE] they aren't, everyone knows this, and an overwhelming amount of americans don't care

[QUOTE=TestECull;48026649]They are, though. It costs less to produce a manual gearbox, less to install one. Dealers will try to jack up the price but you can almost always twist their arm with the 'Itt'l sit on the lot for the next year and a half if you don't cut me a deal on it' lever. Impossible. You're turning a hydraulic pump at all times, one that manuals don't have. That takes fuel. you've got an inefficient, highly lossy fluid coupling between engine and transmission that slips incessantly as per normal operation and won't engage the lockup clutch until in high gear. You still lose a siginificant chunk of fuel to an automatic that you won't lose to a manual, it's just all in the city mileage.[/QUOTE] I can find [url=http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/01/save-gas-and-money-with-a-manual-transmission/index.htm]a number of sources[/url] [url=http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/five-myths-about-stick-shifts.html]that disagree[/url]. I realize you probably know a lot more about cars than I do since this seems to be a real passion of yours, but I know for a fact the sticker prices I've seen (being able to convince a dealer to take a lower price because nobody else wants it is admittedly a plus) and mileage ratings directly contradict your theorizing. I was recently in the market for a new car and for most of the models I looked at there was no difference in price and minor difference in mileage, sometimes in the automatics' favor, and especially on any car with a CVT transmission. I don't see why it's so hard for some people to admit that the biggest reason manual is still around is nostalgia, and economies of scale can easily account for why an increasingly niche design would be more expensive than a mass-produced but mechanically more complex alternative. If your most relevant experience with an automatic is your mom's '97 Explorer, perhaps you ought to try a newer car?

[QUOTE=demoguy08;48026810]Nah this is an interesting debate. I guess in the end it comes down to preference, but I'd still like to see statistical proof that autos are equal/more fuel efficient than manuals.[/QUOTE] Haven't been able to find any comprehensive studies on the matter (which is strange, surely they exist), but most sources I found through google seemed to imply that there's not much of a difference between the fuel economy of modern manuals and automatics. That being said, virtually none of them cited any source at all.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;48025844]Unless your budget is extremely low and you're only in the market for cars from the early 80s you nearly have to go out of your way to get a manual transmission vehicle. It's pretty much something that's purely in the realm of enthusiasts now, but there's still a wealth of information on how to drive them if that's what you want to learn. But in no way can it be considered a fundamental driving skill anymore[/QUOTE] Most cars still come in with a manual form its just you have to ask and find out when they have the cars in stock.

who really needs to give a fuck about what ANYONE thinks about standard/automatic transmission? if you want to drive a stick, fuckin' drive one and shut your mouth. if you want to drive an automatic, [i]then just fucking drive one[/i]

[QUOTE=DanTehMan;48026318]For every manual superiorist that has been handed down a parents car, or had help with its purchase, should have no opinion in the matters. For most people cars are simply a necessary aspect of life. Would most people love to drive some sporty manual that maxes out over 80 mph? Sure, but for many you get what you can and you don't complain about it.[/QUOTE] Sweet, so my opinion matters, since I bought my 2006 Mustang GT (manual) myself, without help right? (by the way, it maxes out around 170mph in case you were wondering....) I've driven autos and manuals, and I will say this: Should people be forced to drive a manual? No. For an everyday commuter use, it's not worth it. However, EVERYONE should be required to at a minimum LEARN how to drive a manual correctly to get their license. It doesn't have to even be a car. Even showing that you know how to use a manual transmission and clutch on something like a 4 wheeler would suffice. It's just something to make sure people know how manuals work and how to drive them, so if it ever arises that they need to drive one, they can at least limp through it.

I don't drive but I've been surrounded by car nuts and my closest friend has been fixing up a Alfa Romeo Spyder, I think its one of the 80s builds. He swears by manuals for the fun of driving but he also admits that for most people, automatic is just easier to use. However he does state clearly, automatics are more deadly in frost and water conditions.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48025225]Some people just want to use their vehicle to get to work and back. Does that make them any less of a person than you?[/QUOTE] When did I ever say it made them less of a person though....?

[QUOTE=Leestons;48025095]In the UK if we took our driving test in an auto we're not legally allowed to drive manual.[/QUOTE] Not to mention that automatic cars are an unusual sight in the UK. Pretty much everyone drives manual cars here.

[QUOTE=Ridge;48026007]I definitely prefer a stick when possible. Yeah, it sucks to drive in traffic, but it makes you so much more engaged with the car and the experience when you're on the open road...[/QUOTE] I don't care about the intimacy of the experience. My car is a tool. Its job is to bring me from point A to point B. I trust an automatic system more than I trust myself to not fuck it up if I have to handle it manually. It also means I have that much more attention to devote to not dying or killing other people.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;48026717]What if you just want to sit inside without turning it on? Or you're fucking in it? Did tesla think of that?[/QUOTE] it's irrelevant tesla's don't have a handbrake, nor do they need to turn over (nor are the motors using power when you're not driving) you put it in drive and it goes, but needing to "turn it on" isn't a thing that occurs in a fully electric vehicle

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;48024964]I always liked shifting on a motorcycle more than a car. It was so much nicer with it being sequential. Anybody know why cars aren't like that?[/QUOTE] You can get sequential gears for cars, but they're usually part of automatic gearboxes. I know it sounds like a bit of a contradiction, but they are about. I hate driving automatic. I just don't like my left foot doing nothing and how it feels like you have less control.