Newfoundland Driving School to Stop Teaching Stick Shift - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Swilly;48027295]Most cars still come in with a manual form its just you have to ask and find out when they have the cars in stock.[/QUOTE] Like I said, you literally need to go out of your way and specifically request one. And nowadays, you're going out of your way to get a car with worse fuel economy, which is just stupid unless you're an enthusiast. [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;48030104]There is a reason the "rule" dyno tuners have gone by for decades is "8-15% manual loss, 15-25% auto loss". Automatics are nowhere near as efficient as manuals, and it's not about technology. It's about the physics of what an auto trans is. You will never make it as efficient as a system that uses less parts and has less loss to inefficiency. In order to shift gears, the converter must convert engine power to hydraulic power. That is power loss from inefficiency. Manuals don't have this loss, because they don't have this system. Boom, physics.[/QUOTE] Manuals have the same amount of parts, one of the parts is just a human instead. You can't shift faster and more efficiently than a modern automatic gearbox, period

[QUOTE=Zeke129;48031459]Like I said, you literally need to go out of your way and specifically request one. And nowadays, you're going out of your way to get a car with worse fuel economy, which is just stupid unless you're an enthusiast. [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] Manuals have the same amount of parts, one of the parts is just a human instead. You can't shift faster and more efficiently than a modern automatic gearbox, period[/QUOTE] There's also the point that despite automatics being less efficient, they (modern autos) are still more economical. Not just CVTs but modern epicyclic autos as well (more ratios and torque converter lock-up things). Sure a CVT is only like 78% efficient, but the engine can always run at its most efficient output level so it's using less fuel than a car with a manual gearbox anyways. Also it's becoming common for even conventional autos to have like 7 or 8 forward ratios, which would be very cumbersome if shifting was done manually given how close the ratios are. But at that point the transmission might as well just be a CVT to save cost and complexity.

[QUOTE=kweh;48028305]The whole wrong way to go on about it. A: I get that some people don't really like cars as much as other people, but for christ sakes, don't call it a tool. By that logic, you don't need any of the commodities it has, since its just to go from A to B [/QUOTE] I am very much into cars and I always see them as tools [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] Modern automatic systems really aren't as inefficient as you guys think, the difference is small

A man and his wife are driving in a car one day. The car is crunching gears horribly. "This clutch is absolutely knackered," says the man. "Don't look at me," says his wife, "I never use it."

[QUOTE=pentium;48025049]has a retarded learning curve[/QUOTE] I started taking my driving courses yesterday. I've never driven a car in my entire life. It took me about a minute to understand the gear shift and just about an hour to get full hang of the clutch and shift working in tandem. I'm now on my second day and I'm learning to shift down properly. 2 days. With no prior knowledge of driving. How is that a retarded learning curve?

[QUOTE=itisjuly;48024978]Something to do with design of the gears I presume. Since stick shifting is physical, the things need to be arranged in a certain way. I think there are cars that use sequential manual gearboxes now. But they're a minority.[/QUOTE] Some rally cars have sequential shifting, I remember driving one of those cars when I was like 12. Also some buggies have sequential shift. Stick drive is useful in large trucks though, IIRC. Especially in challenging terrain.

[QUOTE=ColdAsRice;48029081]Hahahahaha, do you think an automatic would self destruct at those speeds? I regularly go 95+ mph in my shitty 95' toyota tundra (auto) whenever the highway patrol isn't around[/QUOTE] no - it just can't hit the speed fast enough to get past a caravan and an estate car doing 50mph on a single carriageway

[QUOTE=Antdawg;48031471]There's also the point that despite automatics being less efficient, they (modern autos) are still more economical. Not just CVTs but modern epicyclic autos as well (more ratios and torque converter lock-up things). Sure a CVT is only like 78% efficient, but the engine can always run at its most efficient output level so it's using less fuel than a car with a manual gearbox anyways. Also it's becoming common for even conventional autos to have like 7 or 8 forward ratios, which would be very cumbersome if shifting was done manually given how close the ratios are. But at that point the transmission might as well just be a CVT to save cost and complexity.[/QUOTE] Trucks have a fucktonne of gears and have forever, if you don't need them all because you are not at load, you just skip them. Cars can do the same.

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;48031702]I started taking my driving courses yesterday. I've never driven a car in my entire life. It took me about a minute to understand the gear shift and just about an hour to get full hang of the clutch and shift working in tandem. I'm now on my second day and I'm learning to shift down properly. 2 days. With no prior knowledge of driving. How is that a retarded learning curve?[/QUOTE] people are different? for lots of my friends who went to try and learn stick it took them a good while to get the feel for the clutch and gas at the same time

[QUOTE=Aetna;48025184]Because you've never tracked, autocrossed, or drifted. You've never faced a tight slalom, an apex in the rain, or done donuts. Once you learn to drive stick you don't want to go back. There's just so much more you can do with the car, you have a better (and at times almost romantic) connection with the car. The first time I kicked my clutch when I was 16 and went sideways in a parking lot I had an instant boner.[/QUOTE] And at the same time big muscle cars often have autos yet they're still fun as heck. Can do donuts and lay rubber all day long. [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] Also trail rigs and drag cars can perform better using autos. Manual isn't superior in every automobile related situation.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;48031459]Manuals have the same amount of parts, one of the parts is just a human instead. You can't shift faster and more efficiently than a modern automatic gearbox, period[/QUOTE] You're wrong and right at the same time. Manuals are slower than automatics. That's why drag racers use auto transmissions with manual valve bodies and air shifters. However, manuals have less parts that require engine power, and are less efficient when you look at power input vs power output. Automatics require a flex plate and torque converter. The flex plate is what connects the engine to the torque converter. All of your engine power goes into the torque converter, which is basically a giant hydraulic pump. It allows the engine to slip in low rpms (like you're pressing a clutch), but once the RPMs increase, it builds pressure and puts more power into the transmission. Because it's converting rotational energy to hydraulic pressure, there is a loss of energy UNTIL the engine and transmission speeds can synchronize, which is when the converter mechanically "locks up", and it becomes a solid link. Some of the hydraulic pressure created by the torque converter is also bled off and sent to the valve body, which controls when the transmission shifts and operates the clutch pack. The torque converter, being a giant liquid filled pump, also adds a lot of rotating mass and resistance to the engine. In a manual, you have a flywheel, clutch, and throw out bearing setup, in which the clutch and throw out bearing is it's own closed hydraulic (used to be cable) system with a master cylinder and slave cylinder, which requires no engine power. When you push the clutch, the throw out bearing pushes the clutch plate away from the flywheel, disconnecting them. This setup, when used properly, means that your engine is either fully engaged, or fully disengaged, with a tiny period of slipping on takeoff. the transmission does not require any power from the engine to perform any of its duties, meaning it doesn't need to siphon output power to operate. The flywheel and clutch setup is also lighter than a flex plate and torque converter setup, meaning less rotating mass. What this whole wall of text means is this: Automatic transmissions, because of how they work, will never be as efficient as an equivalent manual transmission because it has a larger rotating mass, and because until the torque converter locks up (at around 50-55 mph), the engine power is being converted to hydraulic power, which then drives the transmission. There is a conversion loss, and a loss to slipping until then. Manuals, however, are lighter, and are a fully mechanical engagement when you're not pressing the clutch, meaning there's no conversion loss. Now, years ago, when manuals were 5 speed, and autos were only 3 speed, this difference was more pronounced, because autos stayed in each gear longer, and had a higher lockup rpm. However, with modern 5, 6, and 7 speed autos, they can lower the lockup rpm, meaning you can be in a gear more appropriate for the speed your traveling, and still have the converter lockup, meaning you spend less time converting power to hydraulic and more time with a mechanical connection. But even then, you can't overcome the loss of efficiency when the converter isn't locked up.

[QUOTE=mokkan;48031874]Trucks have a fucktonne of gears and have forever, if you don't need them all because you are not at load, you just skip them. Cars can do the same.[/QUOTE] For a normal car, what would be the point of having like 18 forward ratios if drivers are just going to skip past most of them? It makes sense in a truck because their engines operate in a very narrow speed range and they're either not carrying load or carrying up to a huge load. If a normal car is to have more than seven forward ratios, it might as well just have a CVT.

I'm learning to drive stick, but the first thing I'll do when I've saved up enough is to buy an automatic.

[QUOTE=Tmaxx;48025252]because, believe it or not, its a hobby. It's like asking "ugh why would anyone build a PC, just get a prebuilt its just a computer"[/QUOTE] This thread really should have ended there. Manual vs automatic is, at least in the US, a personal preference. For the average person in an average day who isn't an enthusiast about cars, an automatic is perfectly fine. Even in specific situations where a manual would be better or offer advantages, the advantages are marginal at best. I drive a manual. I prefer driving stick because I think it's more fun, more engaging, and I enjoy the extra control. However it really is just like somebody buying a laptop to browse Facebook versus somebody building a PC to play demanding games. Different audiences who are looking to get different things out of it.

Like yo, I prefer stick because I find it makes driving more engaging and fun, but it's really just a preference, there's no need to use it to consider myself superior to anyone else. The only scenario where I find stick is objectively more useful is winter driving on icy roads. If you apply the brake, your wheels will stop and you'll start skidding with no control. Engine braking allows you to slow down with far less skidding. Being able to shift to second aggressively can also help for getting moving in snowy and icy conditions. But all that aside, that's an infrequent road condition that you shouldn't really be driving a two-wheel drive econobox in anyway

[QUOTE=TheWhiteFox1;48030057]the only time you ever need to put that much thought into driving a standard is when you're first learning. at some point it all becomes completely natural where it never takes any of your attention off of driving. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] i'm not a car enthusiast by any means (i'm actually completely stupid when it comes to them) but i'll always drive standard just because i find it more fun + enjoy feeling a bit more connected to the ride[/QUOTE] Oh, every single day I had driving instructions, with the instructor by my side, was a day of stress. I was told to obey every.single.sign to the letter. Now, with this, I'm not saying I disobey every single rule there is and say "fuck the police", but the fact that there was a bitchy instructor by my side, who flipped SHIT whenever I went by a 50 sign and the needle was a milimeter over 50, was the most stressful thing that ever happened to me. I get that she was preparing me for the test, which is rather strict, but goddamn, I was a nerve wreck whenever I had driving lessons, due to the need to obey to every single rule, with no mistakes, like a robot. Like, who in their right mind doesn't speed up a little more, say 5 km over the limit, just to not crawl around the road? Everyone does it. Not even the cops care about it, unless they are out for the money. When lessons ended and I passed the test, driving alone, I felt like I was the boss. Nobody to get on my nerves, no need for robot like obediance (but no excesses either), it was as if I had just won the euromillions, went on vacations, and bought a new sweet ride and went out for a ride with a smile on my face. [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Headhumpy;48030164]Because you have pricks like the OP going "people who can't drive stick are pussies", and judging by this thread, there are far more than one of them.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't call them pussies, but one should really know how to since its so easy and can be so useful if needed, But, I'd say when someone says "I just want to go from A to B, manuals are too hard" would be the same as "people who can't drive stick are pussies" kind of shit. [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=mokkan;48031337]"retarded learning curve" "put foot down move stick lift foot up" Manual is easy. [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] hillstarts are the only difficult part but once you do it a few times you dont even need the handbrake anymore except for steep hills[/QUOTE] That being said, I still wouldn't take my dad's car to the hills. The worst clutch ever, that thing needs percision in your foot.

[QUOTE=kweh;48034038]Oh, every single day I had driving instructions, with the instructor by my side, was a day of stress. I was told to obey every.single.sign to the letter. Now, with this, I'm not saying I disobey every single rule there is and say "fuck the police", but the fact that there was a bitchy instructor by my side, who flipped SHIT whenever I went by a 50 sign and the needle was a milimeter over 50, was the most stressful thing that ever happened to me. I get that she was preparing me for the test, which is rather strict, but goddamn, I was a nerve wreck whenever I had driving lessons, due to the need to obey to every single rule, with no mistakes, like a robot. Like, who in their right mind doesn't speed up a little more, say 5 km over the limit, just to not crawl around the road? Everyone does it. Not even the cops care about it, unless they are out for the money. When lessons ended and I passed the test, driving alone, I felt like I was the boss. Nobody to get on my nerves, no need for robot like obediance (but no excesses either), it was as if I had just won the euromillions, went on vacations, and bought a new sweet ride and went out for a ride with a smile on my face. [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] I wouldn't call them pussies, but one should really know how to since its so easy and can be so useful if needed, But, I'd say when someone says "I just want to go from A to B" would be the same as "people who can't drive stick are pussies" kind of shit.[/QUOTE] We had an auto for drivers Ed, and we also had to follow every rule to the T. If they allow you to break any road rules, they can be seen as responsible for teaching you to break the law. I learned to drive a manual trans in the Mustang GT I own today. My buddy owned it and let me drive it once when he first got it. It had so much low end torque that you could slowly let off the clutch and it would start going without giving it any gas. He made a bunch of engine modifications and put in a racing clutch not long after (meaning you had to actually work the clutch and gas now), and was only with me one more time when I drove it. After that, he would get me to do things like go to the store and pick up some stuff we needed to cook just by tossing me his keys (because he knew I couldn't resist driving his car). My takeoffs were horrible, I would stall it, etc. I tried to get him to ride along to tell me what I was doing wrong, but he refused and said not only would it be better for me (because he wouldn't be there shouting in my ear), but it would be better for him as well because he didn't want to get nervous about my driving. In the end, I wish he would have taken one or two more rides with me, to give me pointers on taking off, because it took me over a week of every day driving to finally learn what I was doing wrong. But people were laughing at me for a whole week (we swapped vehicles for a week before I bought it so I could test drive it), and it was nerve racking. In the end, I guess it was alright, because I did learn how to drive it in about a week, and nobody was stressing me out, but it could have went much smoother if I had a little more instruction, telling me what I was doing wrong.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;48034275]Manuals sound annoying, I just want to drive and enjoy my music and watch the road, doing as minimum as possible.[/QUOTE] they only get annoying in heavy traffic [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] People who don't drive manual seem to have this idea that you need to look down at the gear lever every time you change, you really dont

Autos are fine you babies. I learned to drive in a manual, I enjoyed driving in a manual. But if I just want to get from A to B, I don't really care too much about having to remember to shift and junk. Especially on a longer journey. Thinking you're some kind of supermen because you refuse to drive anything without a clutch pedal is just silly. Autos work great for daily drivers. Zero thought, zero effort, just focus and transport. The feeling of using a manual might be pretty good (it is), but not everybody actually gives a shit so lay the fuck off and find something better to do with your time than boast about being able to move your hand.

[QUOTE=mokkan;48031874]Trucks have a fucktonne of gears and have forever, if you don't need them all because you are not at load, you just skip them. Cars can do the same.[/QUOTE] Trucks are beginning to have pretty nice autos now too though. Scania has opticruise which you can get with automatic clutch or normal clutch (you only use clutch to get it moving, after that it shifts on it's own), volvo has I-shift DC which is pretty damn fast etc [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnBytAdp3yk[/media]

I live in a weird part of the world where the only people buying cars with auto gearboxes are old people with weak legs (and as such probably shouldn't be driving anymore due to brakes requiring the ability to stomp it hard in order to stop in a emergency fast) or someone who's handicapped due to one of their legs. At the shop I work at we have a auto loaners car that's sitting there and rotting away because the customers would rather borrow our old beaten to shit stickshift van than driving auto. And we actually use ATF more for old servo systems than for automatic transmissions. [QUOTE=opaali;48037240]Trucks are beginning to have pretty nice autos now too though. Scania has opticruise which you can get with automatic clutch or normal clutch (you only use clutch to get it moving, after that it shifts on it's own), volvo has I-shift DC which is pretty damn fast etc [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnBytAdp3yk[/media][/QUOTE] Old buses typically had 7 speed manual gearboxes, and old large trucks had a high-low second gearbox in addition with the (typically) 7-speed gearbox.

[QUOTE=rampageturke 2;48034302]they only get annoying in heavy traffic [editline]23rd June 2015[/editline] People who don't drive manual seem to have this idea that you need to look down at the gear lever every time you change, you really dont[/QUOTE] That's only once you've got the muscle memory down, you try to shift without looking before that and you end up accidentally crunching down from 4th into 1st and having the engine scream at you.

I learned how to drive my Mazdaspeed 6 in a week. The only difficult thing in a manual is first gear starts, and thats about it. I actually like a manual over an auto in terms that I can choose how much acceleration I want, and shift at lower RPM's to get better mileage. It makes me feel like I actually control the car

The great thing about driving stick is that if your starter motor or battery goes out you can still start your car by just pushing it.

[QUOTE=TacticalBacon;48038608]That's only once you've got the muscle memory down, you try to shift without looking before that and you end up accidentally crunching down from 4th into 1st and having the engine scream at you.[/QUOTE] Never had that problem personally. If I want to go down to third I know to just push the stick forward, and if I wanted to go to first I'd have to push it away from me. I've never had to look.

I'm 19 and I've seen like 2 sticks in my entire life no exaggeration. Are they REALLY that common everywhere else?

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;48039988]I'm 19 and I've seen like 2 sticks in my entire life no exaggeration. Are they REALLY that common everywhere else?[/QUOTE] I'm 22 in a month and have only seen one automatic.

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;48039988]I'm 19 and I've seen like 2 sticks in my entire life no exaggeration. Are they REALLY that common everywhere else?[/QUOTE] I know one guy who has an automatic. Manuals are everywhere here in Denmark.

[QUOTE=Leestons;48039930]Never had that problem personally. If I want to go down to third I know to just push the stick forward, and if I wanted to go to first I'd have to push it away from me. I've never had to look.[/QUOTE] My mate did that exact thing in his brand new BRZ when he was learning manual earlier this year. Some people just find different things difficult.

[QUOTE=TacticalBacon;48040122]My mate did that exact thing in his brand new BRZ when he was learning manual earlier this year. Some people just find different things difficult.[/QUOTE] I'm surprised he managed to do it, I'm unable to go into first above 10mph unless I force it.