Thousands of Russian nationalist march in anti-immigrant protest
146 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Coppermoss;42755434]Yes, I agree that the killing of immigrants is horrible, and there is no excuse for it. The point that I was trying to make is that there are still a large number of people who see unchecked immigration as too drastic a change and wish for it to cease. Instead of wonton violence, they should petition the government to regulate immigration and put caps on the number of unskilled workers, while ensuring their culture will not be threatened. I apologize for the understatement.[/QUOTE]
name one relevant country with unchecked immigration
[QUOTE=LVL FACTORY;42755783]Agree
You westerners are doing too little to assimilate[/QUOTE]
What do you suggest then? I think it's a little pretentious to assume things like this. Cultures and socities change over time, attempting to resist the change through enforcing a traditional culture is a little bit backwards.
[QUOTE=DaysBefore;42755356]It's terrible for a lot of reasons. Natives were treated as inferior peoples, and they had their rights, land, culture, and lives taken from them to fuel European westward expansion.[/QUOTE]
and governments just throw money at them giving them no incentive to work, basically trapping them in poverty.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42755429]
If people knew what Stalin did to the Chechens, Russia wouldn't have invaded Chechnya, let alone twice.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, we gotta forgive Chechens. The only thing they did after all, is making Russian population there make a choice - either flee or be killed in horrible ethnic cleansing.
Who'd try to restore order after that? Literally only Hitler.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;42755806]name one relevant country with unchecked immigration[/QUOTE]
I don't know man, the UK has 500,000 people we've lost track off.
Best organise marches and kill immigrants.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;42755262]I cringed when i saw people agreeing with this, then I saw the posters who actually agreed and wasn't surprised.[/QUOTE]Blackbird88
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42756294]and governments just throw money at them giving them no incentive to work, basically trapping them in poverty.[/QUOTE]
oh yeah i'm just not going to look for a job now that i have enough money to live on the absolute bare minimum, because i'm an efficient, ruthlessly pragmatic machine who only exists to drain your country's money rather than an actual person with goals and ambitions and any kind of drive to get a job (because i'm an immigrant and immigrants are all like that)
good job you solved the crime
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;42755261]yea, us westerners have a nice civil society and a decent standard of living, while russians are leaving en masse to join these TERRIBLE "western" countries.
racism is cool, rite guys?[/QUOTE]
just thought I would quote this because you are right.
the west is great, better than shitty russia.
[QUOTE=kurva;42755257]They have a point. I realised mass immigration is bad when our prime minister hauled in 800,000+ Syrian refugees to my country and I began to see their savagery on the streets.[/QUOTE]
Hehe I don't suppose you could link to a source backing up this supposed savagery mate ;)
[QUOTE=gudman;42756551]Yeah, we gotta forgive Chechens. The only thing they did after all, is making Russian population there make a choice - either flee or be killed in horrible ethnic cleansing.
Who'd try to restore order after that? Literally only Hitler.[/QUOTE]
Russia has had a long history of attempting genocide on the Chechens, deporting them to central Asia, and crushing rebellion there along with settling Russian ethnics there to consolidate control. It reached its peak under Stalin but it still went on after he died. Russia needs to acknowledge they have inherited the Soviet Unions past.
[QUOTE=Cone;42755270]anyone who thinks nationalism is good is a scumbag. Putin is blatantly using it to manipulate the populace, the violence it's bringing out is insane and brutal, and it's indoctrinating kids to believe that said violence is good. it's fucking nuts that so many of you think that this march is in any way good or expressing anything other than blind, easily-manipulated anger[/QUOTE]
"Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation."
I don´t see anything about this that is bad. Could you explain your reasoning?
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42758684]"Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation."
I don´t see anything about this that is bad. Could you explain your reasoning?[/QUOTE]
Nationalism is the belief that one's country is better than any other just because he was born there. It's a really worrying delusion
[QUOTE=Explosions;42755145]First winner rating: Hellsten
whoda thunk it[/QUOTE]
:~)
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42758684]"Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation."
I don´t see anything about this that is bad. Could you explain your reasoning?[/QUOTE]
He seem to be suggesting all nationalists are violent.
I consider myself a nationalist. My perspective is that humans have a tendency to organize into distinct groupings based on an affinity of birth. This is natural and I don't see anything wrong with it. But I've never advocated the use of violence or any kind of mistreatment against minorities or immigrants. I'm a democrat and just because I think my countrys immigration policy has gone too far doesn't mean I'll go out on the streets to harass immigrants. I even have people who are very close to me and my family who are immigrants, particularly Persians. They are one of the nicest people I know.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;42758731]Nationalism is the belief that one's country is better than any other just because he was born there. It's a really worrying delusion[/QUOTE]
Not really. There are many nationalist organisations across Europe who share their views on nations, culture and people. It is about the interests within their nations, and they share a common goal in that perspective.
What you're describing sounds more like jingoism.
[QUOTE=Hellsten;42758930]Not really. There are many nationalist organisations across Europe who share their views on nations, culture and people. It is about the interests within their nations, and they share a common goal in that perspective.
What you're describing sounds more like jingoism.[/QUOTE]
Same shit
[QUOTE=Cone;42756704]oh yeah i'm just not going to look for a job now that i have enough money to live on the absolute bare minimum[/QUOTE]
I try not to judge on how other people on how they decide to live their lives.
[QUOTE=Hellsten;42758930]This is natural and I don't see anything wrong with it.[/QUOTE]
Nationalism itself is mostly an 19th century invention, most of it stirred up by 19th century intellectuals who went around changing their names, inventing alphabets, and collecting folk songs and tales and writing various works of poetry and novels.
Nationalism is pretty much artificial.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42759118]Nationalism itself is mostly an 19th century invention, most of it stirred up by 19th century intellectuals who went around changing their names, inventing alphabets, and collecting folk songs and tales and writing various works of poetry and novels.[/QUOTE]
National romanticism is beautiful though. It brought us great pieces of art, poems and novels like you mentioned. It shed some renewed light on the national histories and remains a big inspiration even today.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42759118]Nationalism is pretty much artificial.[/QUOTE]
Sort of. The kingdoms of medieval times were formed into nations during the nationalisation of Europe. But nationalism still very much emphasizes on the natural tendency of humans to organize into distinct groups depending on where and in what culture they were born. Because it is a natural tendency.
[QUOTE=Hellsten;42759283]The idea of nationalism is sort of artificial yes, the kingdoms were formed into nations during the nationalisation of Europe. But nationalism still very much emphasizes on the natural tendency of humans to organize into distinct groups depending on where and in what culture they were born. Because it is a natural tendency.[/QUOTE]
Can I change nationalities if I don't like the one I am in? I didn't have any choice in the matter to become British.
[QUOTE=Hellsten;42759283]The idea of nationalism is sort of artificial yes, the kingdoms were formed into nations during the nationalisation of Europe. But nationalism still very much emphasizes on the natural tendency of humans to organize into distinct groups depending on where and in what culture they were born. Because it is a natural tendency.[/QUOTE]
It's not a good tendency
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42759296]Can I change nationalities if I don't like the one I am in? I didn't have any choice in the matter to become British.[/QUOTE]
Move to Serbia, embrace the Serbian language and Culture.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42759328]Move to Serbia, embrace the Serbian language and Culture.[/QUOTE]
I prefer Finland tbh.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42759296]Can I change nationalities if I don't like the one I am in? I didn't have any choice in the matter to become British.[/QUOTE]
Well it is my opinion that you can change your nationality in a cultural perspective which will most likely take a very long time because of a different languages, standards and cultural values which you would have to learn and adapt to.
But obviously you can't change your ethnicity. Why would you want to though. Everyone has got reasons to be proud of their ancestry. Finding pride in your heritage will make you feel a lot better about yourself.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;42759305]It's not a good tendency[/QUOTE]
I guess not if you are under the impression that everyone should be the same and no cultural diversity should exist across nations.
I think it is a good tendency. If it didn't exist, we wouldn't have as many different cultures and people as we have today. To me that sounds pretty boring.
[QUOTE=Hellsten;42759438]Well it is my opinion that you can change your nationality in a cultural perspective which will most likely take a very long time because of a different languages, standards and cultural values which you would have to learn and adapt to.
But obviously you can't change your ethnicity. Why would you want to though. Everyone has got reasons to be proud of their ancestry. Finding pride in your heritage will make you feel a lot better about yourself.[/QUOTE]
Let us imagine I moved to Finland, learnt the language, Fennicized my name to Einar Markku, and then cut off links to Britain and raised my children as Finns.
Would the children be proud that they had a British heritage, or would they enjoy Finland more? Which would they identify as? Would they be considered ethnic Finns? What about their grandchildren or great grandchildren?
[QUOTE=Hellsten;42759438]Finding pride in your heritage will make you feel a lot better about yourself.[/quote]
Why though? I have Scottish heritage, like as not some male relative fought with Robert de Bruce at Bannockburn. But I didn't do that, I didn't contribute to that, it's not [I]my[/I] accomplishment.
What about you Hellsten, as far as I know, and if I'm wrong please correct me, you're entirely Swedish. So there's a good chance one of your male ancestors rode the waves upon a longboat and brought fire and steel to an English village or Frankish monastery. But what does that have to do with you?
[QUOTE=Hellsten;42759438]I guess not if you are under the impression that everyone should be the same and no cultural diversity should exist across nations.
I think it is a good tendency. If it didn't exist, we wouldn't have as many different cultures and people as we have today. To me that sounds pretty boring.[/QUOTE]
Or multiple cultures could exist in one area, it's not impossible or even that unlikely.
[QUOTE=Hellsten;42759438]Well it is my opinion that you can change your nationality in a cultural perspective which will most likely take a very long time because of a different languages, standards and cultural values which you would have to learn and adapt to.
But obviously you can't change your ethnicity. Why would you want to though. Everyone has got reasons to be proud of their ancestry. Finding pride in your heritage will make you feel a lot better about yourself.
I guess not if you are under the impression that everyone should be the same and no cultural diversity should exist across nations.
I think it is a good tendency. If it didn't exist, we wouldn't have as many different cultures and people as we have today. To me that sounds pretty boring.[/QUOTE]
lol have you ever been to the US
it's the world's melting pot of culture and even though a lot of different cultures live in the same place people keep their cultures
excluding people because you think your culture is better than everyone else's is hella dumb because cultural diversity still exists in the most mixed of places
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42759611]Let us imagine I moved to Finland, learnt the language, Fennicized my name to Einar Markku, and then cut off links to Britain and raised my children as Finns.
Would the children be proud that they had a British heritage, or would they enjoy Finland more? Which would they identify as? Would they be considered ethnic Finns? What about their grandchildren or great grandchildren?[/QUOTE]
Your children would most likely identify themselves more with Finland than with Britain, but it depends on how you raise them too, what traditions and cultural values are practised in your family.
But say your descendants stay in Finland and have children with native Finns. As generations pass, your descendants would definitely more or less become ethnic Finns.
[editline]5th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tacosheller;42759667]lol have you ever been to the US
it's the world's melting pot of culture and even though a lot of different cultures live in the same place people keep their cultures
excluding people because you think your culture is better than everyone else's is hella dumb because cultural diversity still exists in the most mixed of places[/QUOTE]
Bringing up US, the melting pot of cultures in a thread about nationalism might not be the best idea.
USA is less diverse than the different nations of Europe. Every European nation has countless differences to its neighbours, but with US, you have cultures mixed together. It is a very different thing.
[QUOTE=Hellsten;42758930]I consider myself a nationalist. My perspective is that humans have a tendency to organize into distinct groupings based on an affinity of birth. This is natural and I don't see anything wrong with it. But I've never advocated the use of violence or any kind of mistreatment against minorities or immigrants. I'm a democrat and just because I think my countrys immigration policy has gone too far doesn't mean I'll go out on the streets to harass immigrants. I even have people who are very close to me and my family who are immigrants, particularly Persians. They are one of the nicest people I know.[/QUOTE]
it doesn't matter what nationalism actually IS, because it's intrinsically extremely easily to abuse as a scapegoat for literally any problem - be it economical downturn, societal issues, or just imagined problems that don't even really exist.
for example, Russia starts going through a lot of problems, and then suddenly it's the immigrants and foreigners who have caused it all, and government action must be taken to restore the country to its former glory. never you mind that that same government oppresses its people to hideous degrees and quells protests quickly and violently - just focus on the immigrants. once they're gone, everything will be fine.
you see, any kind of serious nationalist weight in the population is just more people you can distract and deceive. anything the government does can be spun into restoring former glory, or fighting back the tide of immigrants - failing that, you can whip them into a frenzy, like this march for instance, and they'll get all huffy and violent about immigrants, while anyone who thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves and sympathizing with unpleasant company.
in a game as manipulative as politics, a strong nationalist base is easier to mold than play-doh. it's less an ideology, and more a farming strategy.
[QUOTE=Hellsten;42759699]Your children would most likely identify themselves more with Finland than with Britain, but it depends on how you raise them too, what traditions and cultural values are practised in your family.
But say your descendants stay in Finland and have children with native Finns. As generations pass, your descendants would definitely more or less become ethnic Finns.[/QUOTE]
Is it considered right to raise them Finnish or British? Which heritage do they choose from? Is it fair? Why can't I or ones children choose their ethnicity?
Bugger, now I'm wondering what Sobotnik would Fennicize into.
[QUOTE=Hellsten;42759699]Your children would most likely identify themselves more with Finland than with Britain, but it depends on how you raise them too, what traditions and cultural values are practised in your family.
But say your descendants stay in Finland and have children with native Finns. As generations pass, your descendants would definitely more or less become ethnic Finns.
[editline]5th November 2013[/editline]
Bringing up US, the melting pot of cultures in a thread about nationalism might not be the best idea.
USA is less diverse than the different nations of Europe. Every European nation has countless differences to its neighbours, but with US, you have cultures mixed together. It is a very different thing.[/QUOTE]
Within the cities though, you might be surprised at the diversity. Here in Phoenix, I could eat Mexican food in a neighborhood where Spanish is the primary language, and then travel a mile to Chinatown, and hear Chinese spoken as a day to day language out on the street. There is mixing, but people hold onto their culture as well.
[QUOTE=DaysBefore;42759658]Why though? I have Scottish heritage, like as not some male relative fought with Robert de Bruce at Bannockburn. But I didn't do that, I didn't contribute to that, it's not [I]my[/I] accomplishment.
What about you Hellsten, as far as I know, and if I'm wrong please correct me, you're entirely Swedish. So there's a good chance one of your male ancestors rode the waves upon a longboat and brought fire and steel to an English village or Frankish monastery. But what does that have to do with you?[/QUOTE]
No but it has to do with your great ancestors, there's a connection. I don't know why but to me that connection has a very powerful meaning to me. You're part of something that stretches across time, and your descendants will be too. It's the thought of that everything is not just about your life you live today. It gives comfort but also alerts you to care for future generations and what will happen to them. Like, you owe it to your ancestors and it wouldn't do them any justice if you didn't care about the future of your bloodline.
But I guess it depends on how much of your family history is known to you.
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