Don't call pregnant women 'expectant mothers' as it might offend transgender people, BMA says
253 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;51754587]Which has nothing to do with the far left.
And yet here we are, with half the thread going "I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS" and blaming it on SJWs.[/QUOTE]
I'm no stranger to people saying offensive things, it's been something I've dealt with since sixth grade. I'm not exactly a good looking person, I have zero social skills, I have zero desire to socialize, so naturally I was bullied and mocked throughout all of middle and high school...even today it happens from time to time. Even worse for the snowflakes, the things being said to me were [i]intended[/i] to be hurtful. The words were chosen specifically with the goal being to offend and belittle, to be a put-down. And you know what? [i]I just grew a thicker skin and learned to ignore them.[/i] By 10th grade I completely stopped caring what other people thought about me, by 12th grade I didn't even acknowledge when people said those things...and that's what these snowflakes need to do. I didn't go crying to people of authority begging them to change the language we all speak to accomodate my feelings, I just toughened up and learned to ignore it when people said such things.
If I can manage to tune out people saying genuinely, objectively hurtful and offensive things specifically to try to hurt me, these people can tune out people saying things like 'mankind' when they're referring to all of us as a single entity. And thus, I have zero sympathy for snowflakes that get pissy about innocent language.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;51754587]Which has nothing to do with the far left.
And yet here we are, with half the thread going "I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS" and blaming it on SJWs.[/QUOTE]
Yet here[I] you[/I] are.
My points are two different points, hence quotation boxes. Health Care has jack shit to do with the polarized left, terminology dancing on the other hand does, because amidst the rise of unchecked belligerent nationalism and an abject failure to jack shit about global warming and an ever spiraling yawning rift between the haves and have nots, it's [I]critically important[/I] that no one leave an emergency room feeling marginalized by a unmodern neanderthal labeling scheme for a medical condition.
(but still alive)
[i]" oh no! people in the healthcare profession, a job that routinely includes working very intimately with people who are suffering and need your help, are being given advice on how not to unintentionally cause various groups of people further distress?.... help! the left are coming for my entire way of life!!"[/i]
This almost obligatory "fuck teh special snowflakes!11" reaction people seem to come out with in regards to anything even sorta related to treating people with courtesy and respect just makes them look like they learned everything they know about the world from slightly jpeg compressed facebook memes.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51754905] You gave birth to it? You're a mother.[/QUOTE]
I want to know how the offended trans parties counter this. What are we supposed to call them if not mothers? Pregnant fathers? Pregnant trans? Pregnant whatever?
Pregnancy is exclusive to biological women. Therefore, whoever is clearly pregnant is biologically female. This logically leads to people calling expecting individuals women.
Where does the offensive part come in? Being mistaken for a woman because you have a distinctively bloated belly?
[QUOTE=TestECull;51754980]I'm no stranger to people saying offensive things, it's been something I've dealt with since sixth grade. I'm not exactly a good looking person, I have zero social skills, I have zero desire to socialize, so naturally I was bullied and mocked throughout all of middle and high school...even today it happens from time to time. Even worse for the snowflakes, the things being said to me were [i]intended[/i] to be hurtful. The words were chosen specifically with the goal being to offend and belittle, to be a put-down. And you know what? [i]I just grew a thicker skin and learned to ignore them.[/i] By 10th grade I completely stopped caring what other people thought about me, by 12th grade I didn't even acknowledge when people said those things...and that's what these snowflakes need to do. I didn't go crying to people of authority begging them to change the language we all speak to accomodate my feelings, I just toughened up and learned to ignore it when people said such things.
If I can manage to tune out people saying genuinely, objectively hurtful and offensive things specifically to try to hurt me, these people can tune out people saying things like 'mankind' when they're referring to all of us as a single entity. And thus, I have zero sympathy for snowflakes that get pissy about innocent language.[/QUOTE]
Apparently I'm going to have to bold this to be really fucking clear about what I'm saying
[B]Except this has nothing to do with ~snowflakes~[/B]
I'm definitely not aware of any ~snowflakes~ getting mad over this and [I]everything[/I] to do with organizations and companies doing what organizations and companies do
[I]avoid any risk of bad PR[/I]
which almost all of them do, sometimes to ridiculous effect, because this is decided by a boardroom of people who literally ask themselves 'OK is there anything we [I]maybe[/I] shouldn't do just in case' and reach in the back of their heads and pull out shit like this. I know that's what they do, I've been [I]in[/I] those meetings. I work with an organization where they literally pay me for advice on what not to do or what not to say. It's no different than giving fast food employees a specific line to say when you leave the register. Is it dumb? Yes. Is it silly? Absolutely. But it has nothing to do with what you're talking about and everything to do with companies being companies.
Quit trying to fit this in to a bullshit narrative about 'thick skin' and 'special snowflakes'.
[QUOTE=27X;51754985]Yet here[I] you[/I] are.
My points are two different points, hence quotation boxes. Health Care has jack shit to do with the polarized left, terminology dancing on the other hand does, because amidst the rise of unchecked belligerent nationalism and an abject failure to jack shit about global warming and an ever spiraling yawning rift between the haves and have nots, it's [I]critically important[/I] that no one leave an emergency room feeling marginalized by a unmodern neanderthal labeling scheme for a medical condition.
(but still alive)[/QUOTE]
Good lord are you overblowing this. These changes being implemented doesn't take away from anything you listed... What the fuck is the[B] British Medical Association[/B] going to do about "unchecked belligerent nationalism and an abject failure to jack shit about global warming and an ever spiraling yawning rift between the haves and have nots"? You say that Health Care has jack shit to do with the "polarized left" but I assure you it has more to do with terminology than anything you listed.
[QUOTE=27X;51754985]Yet here[I] you[/I] are.
My points are two different points, hence quotation boxes. Health Care has jack shit to do with the polarized left, terminology dancing on the other hand does, because amidst the rise of unchecked belligerent nationalism and an abject failure to jack shit about global warming and an ever spiraling yawning rift between the haves and have nots, it's [I]critically important[/I] that no one leave an emergency room feeling marginalized by a unmodern neanderthal labeling scheme for a medical condition.
(but still alive)[/QUOTE]
What the hell are the British Medical Association gonna do about 'the rise of unchecked belligerent nationalism'? This is a TOTAL non issue.
[QUOTE=Nitro836;51754997]I want to know how the offended trans parties counter this. What are we supposed to call them if not mothers? Pregnant fathers? Pregnant trans? Pregnant whatever?[/QUOTE]
I can answer that
if in the extremely rare, almost certainly never going to happen chance that you actually meet a transgendered, female to male person who's also pregnant and intends to give birth, just ask them.
In the unlikely circumstance that you ever need to talk about this though, you could say, 'pregnant man', 'pregnant transman', 'pregnant transgender person', 'parent of the child', whatever you want. 'Pregnant Trans' is I think gramatically incorrect and maybe sounds a bit inhumane. I think in like 99 percent of cases they would want you to refer to them as father of the child rather than the mother, and it actually makes the most sense to do that.
Yes, while the kid did come out of Dad's pussy, the family will inevitably be built on the idea that they're, y'know, Dad. The role they fill is the role of the father, so call them the father. Easy.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;51755025]The role they fill is the role of the father, so call them the father. Easy.[/QUOTE]I thought we're getting past the whole mother/father roles?
A father is, by definition, a "male parent of a child". That covers pregnant trans men. Pretty simple, if you ask me. Mother/Father are gendered pronouns.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51754344]Can the far left just fuck off[/QUOTE]
what far left
[QUOTE=archangel125;51754346]Er... did you read the article? This was a memo from the British Medical Association to their own staff, outlining a professional code of conduct. I thought stuff like this was standard, don't your American hospitals have similar?[/QUOTE]
you guys like to call far left everything don't you
I don't see how a doctor calling you what you actually are is a bad thing
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51755033]I thought we're getting past the whole mother/father roles?[/QUOTE]
Mother and father 'roles' aren't going anywhere. What we assign to those roles are.
While we might not flip a shit every time a dad stays home and the mom works anymore, we're [I]always[/I] going to be calling our parents mom and dad. (or, dad and dad or mom and mom but you know what I mean) So when I say he's fulfilling the role of the father, I'm saying he's identified and considered as 'Dad' in the family.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51755035]A father is, by definition, a "male parent of a child". That covers pregnant trans men. Pretty simple, if you ask me. Mother/Father are gendered pronouns.[/QUOTE]
Being male is not the same as being a man. Male and female are sexes and no amounts of surgery or hormones changes that. Females are mothers because in mammal world they give birth.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;51755025]I can answer that
if in the extremely rare, almost certainly never going to happen chance that you actually meet a transgendered, female to male person who's also pregnant and intends to give birth, just ask them.
In the unlikely circumstance that you ever need to talk about this though, you could say, 'pregnant man', 'pregnant transman', 'pregnant transgender person', 'parent of the child', whatever you want. 'Pregnant Trans' is I think gramatically incorrect and maybe sounds a bit inhumane. I think in like 99 percent of cases they would want you to refer to them as father of the child rather than the mother, and it actually makes the most sense to do that.
Yes, while the kid did come out of Dad's pussy, the family will inevitably be built on the idea that they're, y'know, Dad. The role they fill is the role of the father, so call them the father. Easy.[/QUOTE]
That must be confusing to explain to their child. I mean, surely the trans parent will tell the truth about how biology works, right? Not just convince their gullible kid that dads can get pregnant, too? That's lying.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51755045]Being male is not the same as being a man. Male and female are sexes and no amounts of surgery or hormones changes that. Females are mothers because in mammal world they give birth.[/QUOTE]
Yep, though if we're going to really consider this issue then we might need to work out, in human contexts, how trans people fit in to this and whether the definition remains the same or changes.
Probably not though considering how this is so rare they only have one example of a trans man in the UK becoming pregnant, and likely a similar number for everywhere else.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51755045]Being male is not the same as being a man. Male and female are sexes and no amounts of surgery or hormones changes that. Females are mothers because in mammal world they give birth.[/QUOTE]
I was just using "male" interchangeably with "person who is a man (including transmen), but if I'm wrong and a trans person can correct me then feel free. What I about Father and Mother being gendered pronouns for parent and thus them correlating with their identifying gender stands, though.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;51755054]Yep, though if we're going to really consider this issue then we might need to work out, in human contexts, how trans people fit in to this and whether the definition remains the same or changes.
Probably not though considering how this is so rare they only have one example of a trans man in the UK becoming pregnant, and likely a similar number for everywhere else.[/QUOTE]
I see, thanks!
[QUOTE=Nitro836;51755050]That must be confusing to explain to their child. I mean, surely the trans parent will tell the truth about how biology works, right? Not just convince their gullible kid that dads can get pregnant, too? That's lying.[/QUOTE]
If I was a trans-man father, I would simply be honest.
The talk would basically go like this;
I would tell them that sometimes, rarely, people are born with the mind of a boy, or the mind of a girl, even though they were born with male parts and female parts. So, they fix this so their bodies match who they are in their mind. And that dad is one of these people, but chose to give birth before he changed his body. So, he gave birth to you the way a mom usually does, but he's still your dad.
Mind you the chances of this topic coming up are slim and depend on whether or not the child even knows how people are born, which they likely won't (at least in American society) unless you tell them when they're young or they grow up and need to have 'the talk'.
Transgender are transparent about their transformation.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;51755066]If I was a trans-man father, I would simply be honest.
The talk would basically go like this;
I would tell them that sometimes, rarely, people are born with the mind of a boy, or the mind of a girl, even though they were born with male parts and female parts. So, they fix this so their bodies match who they are in their mind. And that dad is one of these people, but chose to give birth before he changed his body. So, he gave birth to you the way a mom usually does, but he's still your dad.
Mind you the chances of this topic coming up are slim and depend on whether or not the child even knows how people are born, which they likely won't (at least in American society) unless you tell them when they're young or they grow up and need to have 'the talk'.[/QUOTE]
That sounds acceptable.
The only reason why this would be a big deal is because of people whining about it lol. All of this complaining about PC culture doesn't seem to realize the "outrage" stems from the people whining about the stuff a vocal minority does.
Won't be long before teachers begin calling students 'pupil #' in case any non-binary/transgender folk get offended (or more likely; people decide to be offended on their behalf) about having their gender assumed based on their given name.
You all are getting offended by something so harmless. Changing terminology to be inclusive is apparently the end of the world to you guys? Jesus.
[QUOTE=Ishwoo;51755173]Won't be long before teachers begin calling students 'pupil #' in case any non-binary/transgender folk get offended (or more likely; people decide to be offended on their behalf) about having their gender assumed based on their given name.[/QUOTE]
Uh as someone who has been in a teaching position with transgender students, you either refer to them by their name or say "them" like you would anyone who you aren't entirely familiar with.
It takes 0 effort and if a teacher isn't willing to treat their student with respect, regardless, then they probably shouldn't be in a position to teach.
Like why do people think that this is such a MONUMENTAL mental effort. It's really not.
[QUOTE=Ishwoo;51755173]Won't be long before teachers begin calling students 'pupil #' in case any non-binary/transgender folk get offended (or more likely; people decide to be offended on their behalf) about having their gender assumed based on their given name.[/QUOTE]
You are literally inventing things to be mad about.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51754344]Can the far left just fuck off[/QUOTE]
Can this meme fuck off and die?
Like yeah fuck the struggle for worker's rights and redistribution of wealth, obviously the mere existence of gender-obsessed tumblristas has to invalidate all of the far left as a whole, right?
Fuck you and fuck your cryptofacist rethorics.
Man If this is what PC culture is like I'll have some more please
I like to assume this was a bait thread from tudd to see who would come and post about pc culture without reading and that he's working both sides now. That would be ingenious
[QUOTE=archangel125;51754335]On one hand, for professionals, especially in the healthcare industry, sensitivity training is important, and as this was from an internal memo to their own licensees, it doesn't seem so out of place.
On the other, come on.[B] Nobody's got that thin a skin.[/B][/QUOTE]
Oh yes there are.
One of them is even the leader of a world superpower.
I care about this from a language perspective, it's damaging and idiotic. Sure, this only affects a small number of medical professionals, the problem is that it sets precedent though. It may spread and it will be for no good reason at all. Changing words like "expectant mother" because it affects 1 or 2 persons in a country of 60 million is nothing other than an overreation. The elderly, disabled, biological changes are completely unnecessary. Avoiding mankind and manpower is just stupid, they are already gender-neutral. They are already used to refer to both genders, what's the problem. The changes to spastic and mongol are the only good, i see here. Don't change language because very few people made up reasons to be offended by a bunch of harmless words.
im trans.
im not offended.
stop getting offended for me.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.