Don't call pregnant women 'expectant mothers' as it might offend transgender people, BMA says
253 replies, posted
No, a transgender man probably wouldn't take offense to just hearing the words 'expectant mother'. It's being called a mother directly that hurts us, as any misgendering likely would do, which is what these guidelines seek to prevent. It's done purely for the sake of making places like hospitals more inclusive and safe for patients; why bother complaining about something like that? It's not hurting anyone, even if some of the changed phrases are unnecessary.
We've made the conscious decision not to call people lame, retarded, spastics, lunatics, etc even though medically accurate, no longer respectful to use.
Now is that harmful artificial meddling with language?
[QUOTE=Talishmar;51770205]We've made the conscious decision not to call people lame, retarded, spastics, lunatics, etc even though medically accurate, no longer respectful to use.
Now is that harmful artificial meddling with language?[/QUOTE]
No, replacing mankind with humanity is though. Because it's for no good reason. You lose a word, people are suddenly bad for using it now and so on. The same with biological male/female.
If they can have a baby they're a fucking girl.
[QUOTE=The golden;51770562]1) I think you'll find most people don't actually give a shit that it was switched to "humanity" lol. Infact I think you'll find 99.9% of the visitors to hospitals that use it probably won't give a single fuck about it. You shouldn't either because it is the most absolute pointless thing to get upset over... Especially when other terms like "human race" "human species" etc are used just as often.
2) Many people who don't openly look transgender still actually are. I won't go into intense detail but not every person openly presents their gender publically. There are many, many different forms of gender identity and many of them have no outward visual change if the person doesn't want to. Using "assigned female/male" is actually fairly common terminology in many clinics and medical places around the world right now. Like seriously this isn't some rare thing...it's increasingly common these days.
Like I said earlier: You really need to get out more.[/QUOTE]
Stupid things are still stupid, even if no one cares about it. People shouldn't change words because of stupid reasons, just because others don't care enough about it. If you told average people that doctors and medical professionals made saying "humanity" and "personnel" instead of "mankind" and "manpower" a priority, they would say it's a complete waste of time and they shouldn't bother with it. They are out of touch with the vast majority of people.
What does assigned even mean? Does it mean anything different from biological? Isn't it just a meaningless name change?
Medical professionals need to get out more, if they consider this something that needs to change.
[QUOTE=blametheman;51770766]If they can have a baby they're a fucking girl.[/QUOTE]
Nice job erasing/misgendering transgender men. Most people capable of getting pregnant are girls, yes, but that doesn't mean people like me don't exist. Biological sex doesn't always equal gender.
Also, I could be wrong since I don't personally use assigned female at birth to describe myself, but I'm fairly sure 'assigned' is in relation to your gender: you were 'assigned' a gender at birth according to your biology that turned out to incorrect, whereas biological refers to your actual sex instead of gender identity.
[QUOTE=RB33;51771692]Medical professionals need to get out more, if they consider this something that needs to change.[/QUOTE]
Yeah man, fuck those doctors who are always out there trying to save lives n' shit! I've got my 1880's dictionary right here, that's all I need! Fuck the modern haters.
Dude, you're just shitposting at this point getting angry over literal semantics. Not even arguing over semantics, but arguing them as a main focus.
[QUOTE=gufu;51771996]Yeah man, fuck those doctors who are always out there trying to save lives n' shit! I've got my 1880's dictionary right here, that's all I need! Fuck the modern haters.
Dude, you're just shitposting at this point getting angry over literal semantics. Not even arguing over semantics, but arguing them as a main focus.[/QUOTE]
It's an article about words, semantics is the literal focus. The people that strive to get offended by harmless words are a greater problem than the words themselves. Both doctors and patients have better things to do than caring about words using a "masculine noun".
To be honest, I just really want to know if the hormones this person was taking could effect the baby in a negative way and if he's still taking them throughout the pregnancy.
Also, I cant even imagine a trans man being confortable with being pregnant at all.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the entire reason people transition is typically because of the overwhelming discomfort of body disphoria right? Being pregnant sounds to me like epotome of womanhood (and could maybe reverse some of the transition?) I guess the urge to procreate must be powerful enough to override his discomfort with his biological sex.
[QUOTE=Glo;51772151]To be honest, I just really want to know if the hormones this person was taking could effect the baby in a negative way and if he's still taking them throughout the pregnancy.
Also, I cant even imagine a trans man being confortable with being pregnant at all.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the entire reason people transition is typically because of the overwhelming discomfort of body disphoria right? Being pregnant sounds to me like epotome of womanhood (and could maybe reverse some of the transition?) I guess the urge to procreate must be powerful enough to override his discomfort with his biological sex.[/QUOTE]
Some people deal with it better than others. Same as how some people find they can live happily without corrective surgery as long as they're socially accepted as their preferred gender.
[QUOTE=The golden;51772976]A transman can't take testosterone while pregnant. He has to stop while carrying child then resume after. Testosterone itself also can lead to infertility anyway so you would have to stop just to get pregnant in the first place.[/QUOTE]
That answers my question actually. Thank you!
But then again, that would be technical as fuck. I mean, he would be a man just until he resumed his hormone treatments. That's like that one teacher that makes people sit in class until the very last minute, even though the moment the bells ring, school is over and its summer vacation. It's needlessly technical.
BUT... It is fair, and people could take offence, so I kind of do have to agree with it.
[QUOTE=The golden;51772976]Firstly, "assigned gender" means the gender a person was given at birth - not the one they actually associate with.
Secondly, lol whaaat? Let me give you the example of my sister who is currently in medschool to be a doctor of neurosurgery. She is constantly traveling Canada visiting universities and doctors, has been down to the US to attend Harvard, and even was in Spain briefly. She is constantly meeting new people, attending lectures and seminars, and all kinds of events and fairs.
I'm pretty sure you're trolling at this point.[/QUOTE]
Then assigned isn't even the same thing, so why replace "biological male/female" with it?
They can't be meeting enough regular people then, who would think this is a non-issue.
I'm not trolling, i disagree with change for changes sake. No real harm is caused by some of these words and if people somehow feel offended, they got to learn to deal with it. Society can't change words all the time, because very small groups feel offended by it.
[QUOTE=RB33;51773112]Then assigned isn't even the same thing, so why replace "biological male/female" with it?
They can't be meeting enough regular people then, who would think this is a non-issue.
I'm not trolling, i disagree with change for changes sake. No real harm is caused by some of these words and if people somehow feel offended, they got to learn to deal with it. Society can't change words all the time, because very small groups feel offended by it.[/QUOTE]
On the other hand, no real harm is done if the words are changed, so why not change them
[QUOTE=Lambeth;51773311]On the other hand, no real harm is done if the words are changed, so why not change them[/QUOTE]
As long as no one is forced to use these words. Sure they can be recommended, but I doubt the BMA are going to have made a large change here, a lot of people are going to disregard it just because they're used to saying what they're saying. When you speak to someone, you don't structure the sentence in your head and then speak it out, you just naturally say what you're feeling or what you want to say and the words come out as they are because you're a native speaker of the language. Having to constantly think whether what you're saying is "politically correct" will just make a lot of the staff feel uncomfortable. Like I said, I don't have any problem with the BMA recommending it, as long as the staff aren't put down for continuing to use these words, because for them it's completely normal and natural to say things like "expectant mothers"
RB33 has got a point, people shouldn't be so easily offended by things that are obviously not meant to cause offence, and I feel like this gets worse every year.
You shouldn't get offended that people are getting offended over something.
Remember that this only applies to people that work for the BMA, ie doctors, nurses, technicians.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;51773388]You shouldn't get offended that people are getting offended over something.
Remember that this only applies to people that work for the BMA, ie doctors, nurses, technicians.[/QUOTE]
Well actually, I should, because it makes the people saying these so-called "offensive" terms feel really uncomfortable when someone wrongly takes offence to it. People shouldn't have to carefully think about everything they say, that's something worth being offended about.
Why don't we all stop talking about this and focus on the issues that are actually destroying our country?
Petty shit like this can be handled later, right now we've got much bigger issues to focus on.
If people had priority control we wouldn't be in this absolute mess in the first place.
[QUOTE=djjkps2;51773504]Well actually, I should, because it makes the people saying these so-called "offensive" terms feel really uncomfortable when someone wrongly takes offence to it. People shouldn't have to carefully think about everything they say, that's something worth being offended about.[/QUOTE]
Anecdotal evidence at all but I live with two roommates who don't live on the gender binary and they've been very nice at my attempts to get their genders right.
I know the internet has conditioned people to think everyone are assholes but in real life they generally aren't.
You're right, this isn't important. Which is why they shouldn't care about changing it in the first place. Cuts in healthcare and high expenses are far more important issues in this topic. At the same time, medical professionals need to worry about saying the "right" words. This is mostly unnecessary and that's why i oppose it. They got better things to do. Not to mention, some of the changes doesn't even make sense.
[QUOTE=The golden;51773623]Are you for real
I'm glad you see it fit to tell people what shouldn't be important to them.[/QUOTE]
Should the 5% dictate how the other 95% speak or which words they use? If medical professionals want use alternative words with the 5%, they can do so. Don't force them on the other 95%. If i feel that them trying to be overly non-offensive is annoying or ridiculous, i shouldn't have to listen to it. You can say "elderly, disabled, biological male, mankind and manpower" to me, i won't get offended and most others won't either.
[QUOTE=RB33;51773653]Should the 5% dictate how the other 95% speak or which words they use? If medical professionals want use alternative words with the 5%, they can do so. Don't force them on the other 95%. If i feel that them trying to be overly non-offensive is annoying or ridiculous, i shouldn't have to listen to it. You can say "elderly, disabled, biological male, mankind and manpower" to me, i won't get offended and most others won't either.[/QUOTE]
that "5%" is probably way more than 5%, and is mixed into the general population and you can't tell for sure whether or not the person you are addressing is part of that "5%". how hard is it to keep in mind a few simple word choices anyway lmfao
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;51773519]Why don't we all stop talking about this and focus on the issues that are actually destroying our country?
Petty shit like this can be handled later, right now we've got much bigger issues to focus on.
If people had priority control we wouldn't be in this absolute mess in the first place.[/QUOTE]
It's not like you have to stop working on one thing to do something else. There are entire departments dedicated to things like this.
[QUOTE=reedbo;51773780]It's not like you have to stop working on one thing to do something else. There are entire departments dedicated to things like this.[/QUOTE]
People only have a finite amount of attention.
Sure, this is something that is maybe worth looking at for policy, but the fact that this is on page 6 and shit like
[url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1551108[/url] has only 2 pages,
[url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1551112[/url] only has 1 page, [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1551168[/url] only has 2 POSTS, shows quite a bit of improper prioritization taking place.
Who gives a fuck about a pregnant person being called a woman in the face of the U.S. potentially becoming much, much more like a dictatorship?
Not to mention the countless other threads that indicate our president might be very corrupt and perhaps even committing treason, let alone the implications of his actions as far as freedom of speech and the stability of our nation is concerned.
[QUOTE=RB33;51773653]You can say "elderly, disabled, biological male, mankind and manpower" to me, i won't get offended and most others won't either.[/QUOTE]
Can I call you a white eurotrash nigger, then?
[editline]4th February 2017[/editline]
I mean, basing on your flagdog, you're probably a white male who is not very smart, especially if he thinks that somehow having guidelines for people is an attack on them. So you know, just being direct and stuff.
[editline]4th February 2017[/editline]
And if that doesn't actually bring about the point, do you disagree that any attempt to actually think of your wording in regards to anyone, is a good thing?
[QUOTE=gufu;51774821]Can I call you a white eurotrash nigger, then?
[editline]4th February 2017[/editline]
I mean, basing on your flagdog, you're probably a white male who is not very smart, especially if he thinks that somehow having guidelines for people is an attack on them. So you know, just being direct and stuff.
[editline]4th February 2017[/editline]
And if that doesn't actually bring about the point, do you disagree that any attempt to actually think of your wording in regards to anyone, is a good thing?[/QUOTE]
There's some irony in you telling him not to use "offensive" words then telling him he's probably a not very smart white male. In any case, I disagree, because when you're used to using the same words for the past 20 years, it's difficult to change them, and will cause people discomfort in trying to think if what they're saying is politically correct all the time.
[QUOTE=djjkps2;51775332]There's some irony in you telling him not to use "offensive" words then telling him he's probably a not very smart white male. In any case, I disagree, because when you're used to using the same words for the past 20 years, it's difficult to change them, and will cause people discomfort in trying to think if what they're saying is politically correct all the time.[/QUOTE]
I don't know if you read the guidelines (but I'm gonna assume you didn't, because I'm a presumptuous person), but this is [I]everything[/I] they state about this whole thing, as far as I can tell:
[QUOTE]A large majority of people that have been pregnant or have given birth identify as women.
We can include intersex men and transmen who may get pregnant by saying ‘pregnant
people’ instead of ‘expectant mothers’.2[/QUOTE]
If you're doing a presentation or whatever, saying "pregnant people" isn't much of a stretch. If you're talking to a patient who identifies as a female, you talk to her like you would any other female. Sure, this is a bit over the top in my opinion (though I can see why they would make guidelines for "best practice" instead of "mediocre practice), considering the bolded part in the OP, but anyone with enough wit to get a medical degree isn't going to get brain fatigue from changing up their vocabulary ever so slightly. Most of the time it won't matter, and it's not a big deal. Really.
This is how I believe a decent adult would handle the issue in real life
Nurse: "we would prefer if you could refer to other patients as <synonym >"
Person: "Oh, I didn't know. Sorry, I'm going to try to speak to them different then"
RB33
Nurse: "Could you please change your tone and words while speaking to patients, please?"
RB33: "No, why are you going to tell me how to speak? I can talk people in any way I want. These people need to man up and deal with it. I'm not going to change even if it sounds "offensive" to them, it's not my fault they are to sensitive and can't deal with my words without getting their feelings hurt".
[QUOTE=Sgt. Nikolai;51775496]This is how I believe a decent adult would handle the issue in real life
Nurse: "we would prefer if you could refer to other patients as <synonym >"
Person: "Oh, I didn't know. Sorry, I'm going to try to speak to them different then"
RB33
Nurse: "Could you please change your tone and words while speaking to patients, please?"
RB33: "No, why are you going to tell me how to speak? I can talk people in any way I want. These people need to man up and deal with it. I'm not going to change even if it sounds "offensive" to them, it's not my fault they are to sensitive and can't deal with my words without getting their feelings hurt".[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure RB33 is a decent adult and has the right to question unordinary decisions. You can't just assume everyone is going to be a-okay with what other people ask them to do.
[QUOTE=djjkps2;51775682]Pretty sure RB33 is a decent adult and has the right to question unordinary decisions. You can't just assume everyone is going to be a-okay with what other people ask them to do.[/QUOTE]
You can't just assume everyone is going to be a-okay with what other people insist on calling them.
Getting mad about this is about as stupid as getting mad because school teachers aren't allowed to call black students niglets or handicapped students mongoloids. Businesses and institutions have regulations that state what is appropriate to say while working there. This has been the case for literally thousands of years.
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