[UK]Gunman kills several in west Cumbria - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Kade;22332822]Nice little saying, shame its based on some pretty [B]fucktarded logic.[/B] Since when did owning a gun become an '[I]essential[/I]' liberty? If you believe it is, then where do we draw the line? Is it the essential liberty of people in the US to individually own nuclear weapons? Why not? Have they not given up this liberty for a little temporary safety? But my main grievance is the word '[I]deserve[/I]'. Since when did whoever wrote this get to make up rules on who deserves what? This kind of self righteous assumptive statement really winds me up.[/QUOTE] ben franklin wrote that

[QUOTE=Conn92;22332813]You're not from the UK, really, you have no idea what it's like over here. Anyone from any non well-off area in the UK will tell you you're making a fool of yourself. Please save yourself the embarrassment. I can tell you right now, as a 17 year-old growing up in an industrial town, if guns were legal in the UK, I'd be dead. The kind of idiots who hang around the street corners herw are the kind of people who would shoot you on the spot just for defending yourself when they try to mug you. Nice old quote you're sporting there. It's untrue in this case. See above. Ineffective? Untrue. Check the statistics compared with the US on gun crime.[/QUOTE] Correct, I'm not from the UK, and I'm not arguing UK gun laws. I'm saying, as others have already said, what works in one place does not work in all. While this may work in the UK99% of the time, it will not work to near the same effectiveness in other countries. Gun control is situational. The UK is in the right situation for it. The US will never be.

also why do people associate liberty with anarchy? As HA said the freedom ends at infringing on others.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;22332987]No. Your freedom ends at infringing on anothers.[/QUOTE] Right. And the UK is full of teenage fuckwits on street corners that wouldn't give a fuck, and would shoot you in the dome with the pistol daddy keeps in the drawer next to his bed just for shits and giggles on their saturday night.

[QUOTE=Kade;22332822]Nice little saying, shame its based on some pretty [B]fucktarded logic.[/B] Since when did owning a gun become an '[I]essential[/I]' liberty? If you believe it is, then where do we draw the line? Is it the essential liberty of people in the US to individually own nuclear weapons? Why not? Have they not given up this liberty for a little temporary safety? But my main grievance is the word '[I]deserve[/I]'. Since when did whoever wrote this get to make up rules on who deserves what? This kind of self righteous assumptive statement really winds me up.[/QUOTE] Owning a gun, and owning a nuclear weapon are two very different things, also, Ben Franklin quote, you're smarter than him now? Gun control works in some areas, it doesn't work in others. In the area of the UK, you don't have a "right" to guns, its different elsewhere. [editline]03:52PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Conn92;22333074]Right. And the UK is full of teenage fuckwits on street corners that wouldn't give a fuck, and would shoot you in the dome with the pistol daddy keeps in the drawer next to his bed just for shits and giggles on their saturday night.[/QUOTE] So you don't give them guns. You don't seem to comprehend that not having a gun ban doesn't mean everyone gets a fucking gun.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;22333040]Correct, I'm not from the UK, and [b]I'm not arguing UK gun laws.[/b] I'm saying, as others have already said, what works in one place does not work in all. While this may work in the UK99% of the time, it will not work to near the same effectiveness in other countries. Gun control is situational. The UK is in the right situation for it. The US will never be.[/QUOTE] So why come into a thread about gun crime in the UK to argue about gun laws outside of the UK? [QUOTE=Idi Amin;22333070]also why do people associate liberty with anarchy? As HA said the freedom ends at infringing on others.[/QUOTE] See above post.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;22332987]No. Your freedom ends at infringing on anothers.[/QUOTE] Well then it's not freedom is it?

[QUOTE=Armotekma;22332879]Chances of you pulling your little "baby eagle" out of your jacket[/QUOTE] Uh, no one in their right mind would carry a desert eagle. [QUOTE=Armotekma;22332879]and being a hero are close to none.[/QUOTE] Baseless claim. The gunman isn't going to be able to watch every single person in the vicinity. [QUOTE=Armotekma;22332879]If you tried to be Mr. Hardcore Hero with your concealed weapon he'd of already shot and killed you.[/QUOTE] Not really. Not if you're smart about it and have some luck. Say he's focused shooting at someone else while you're a hundred yards behind him and he doesn't see you. That would be the perfect chance to put him down.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;22333077]Owning a gun, and owning a nuclear weapon are two very different things, also, Ben Franklin quote, you're smarter than him now? Gun control works in some areas, it doesn't work in others. In the area of the UK, you don't have a "right" to guns, its different elsewhere. [editline]03:52PM[/editline] [b]So you don't give them guns. You don't seem to comprehend that not having a gun ban doesn't mean everyone gets a fucking gun.[/b][/QUOTE] No, I understand perfectly, a lot more than you do apparently. What I'm telling you is I'm a 17 year old that wouldn't have access to a gun to take with me to get a pint of fucking milk out the shop on the corner, but the fuckers that stand outside it and would happily shoot me in the kneecaps for something to laugh at on the otherhand, would.

Gun control in the UK is great at making it very hard for anyone to obtain a weapon that would be any use in a massacre or gang related stuff, for that i love it. But I do not know why it is illegal to have hand guns and rifles kept at a licenced shooting range for people to go and shoot as a sport, these ranges could even be ran by the government. For all the Americans thinking that the damage would be less where it legal to carry concealed hand guns I'm willing to bet that in an area like Cumbria no-one would be making any use of that due to the exceptionally low crime rate there and the fact that there just isn't a "gun culture" here.

Why is HumanAbyss critisizing UK gun control, then saying it works, then talking about the US? This is the UK we are talking about.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;22332987]No. Your freedom ends at infringing on anothers.[/QUOTE] Me owning a gun and potentially going out and shooting at people/shit is nicely infringing upon others. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_crime_in_south_Manchester"]This is[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre"]why we don't[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre"]have "nice"[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Cumbria_shootings"]nice things, like being allowed to tote a pistol in the streets.[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre"]And this is why you shouldn't have nice things, like the ability to fill a shopping list for Wal*Mart as "Diapers, carrots, peas, Ruger 10/22, 3 boxes of .22 wolf ammunition."[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Notable_school_shootings"]Compare the number for "North America" with the number for [U]all[/U] of europe.[/URL]

[QUOTE=Conn92;22333156]No, I understand perfectly, a lot more than you do apparently. What I'm telling you is I'm a 17 year old that wouldn't have access to a gun to take with me to get a pint of fucking milk out the shop on the corner, but the fuckers that stand outside it and would happily shoot me in the kneecaps for something to laugh at on the otherhand, would.[/QUOTE] i like how the brits gloat about their peaceful gunfree society and then tell me that if any of the people had guns it would turn into a mix of army of darkness and lord of the flies.

[QUOTE=Wolfie13;22333175][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre"]And this is why you shouldn't have nice things, like the ability to fill a shopping list for Wal*Mart as "Diapers, carrots, peas, Ruger 10/22, 3 boxes of .22 wolf ammunition."[/URL][/QUOTE] There's nothing wrong with having ammo at a Walmart. It's no different than if you went to a gun shop or bought it online.

[QUOTE=Wolfie13;22333175]Me owning a gun and potentially going out and shooting at people/shit is nicely infringing upon others. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_crime_in_south_Manchester"]This is[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre"]why we don't[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre"]have "nice"[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Cumbria_shootings"]nice things, like being allowed to tote a pistol in the streets.[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre"]And this is why you shouldn't have nice things, like the ability to fill a shopping list for Wal*Mart as "Diapers, carrots, peas, Ruger 10/22, 3 boxes of .22 wolf ammunition."[/URL][/QUOTE] So apparently if any of you brits had a gun you have already decided that you would use it to go on a mass killing spree? What the fuck is wrong with you people?

[QUOTE=JDK721v2;22333151]Uh, no one in their right mind would carry a desert eagle. [b]Baseless claim. The gunman isn't going to be able to watch every single person in the vicinity.[/b] Not really. Not if you're smart about it and have some luck. Say he's focused shooting at someone else while you're a hundred yards behind him and he doesn't see you. That would be the perfect chance to put him down.[/QUOTE] Yes, just because their are no laws banning guns, every cunt out walking their dog will have a glock on them. Guns or no guns, anyone who decides to go on a rampage is still going to take some people with him, maybe not 12, but if 12 people every few years is the sacrafice that has to be made to stop everyone and their granny getting shot by chavs everytime they decide to tend their garden, I say so be it.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;22333077]Owning a gun, and owning a nuclear weapon are two very different things, also, Ben Franklin quote, you're smarter than him now? [/QUOTE] At what frikkin point did I say I was smarter then Ben Franklin? All I said was at what point did Ben Franklins' words become the be all and end all on these matters!? Why quote it like a christian retorting some mundane passage from the bible. Think for your self. You keep saying how some things work here which wouldn't over there, well ever thought that maybe that's true of your archaic quotation?

[QUOTE=Idi Amin;22333236]So apparently if any of you brits had a gun you have already decided that you would use it to go on a mass killing spree? What the fuck is wrong with you people?[/QUOTE] In recent years (Since 1990) there have been specific laws passed to control weapons in the wake of a number of (two) school shootings. While this is primarialy a knee-jerk reaction to a public outcry, it HAS served to reduce the amount of firearms crime (especially shootings) in the years since then.

[QUOTE=SirDigby;22333158]But I do not know why it is illegal to have hand guns and rifles kept at a licenced shooting range for people to go and shoot as a sport, these ranges could even be ran by the government.[/QUOTE] Handgun laws used to be alot more laxed, but after a school shooting with a handgun they were tightened up. Handguns are far too easy to conceal in public, which greatly increases the chance of a crazed shooting.

[QUOTE=Conn92;22333248]Yes, just because their are no laws banning guns, every cunt out walking their dog will have a glock on them. Guns or no guns, anyone who decides to go on a rampage is still going to take some people with him, maybe not 12, but if 12 people every few years is the sacrafice that has to be made to stop everyone and their granny getting shot by chavs everytime they decide to tend their garden, I say so be it.[/QUOTE] Well, the UK doesn't allow concealed carry so a law abiding citizen probably wouldn't be walking around with a pistol on him. So basically you have a criminal armed to the teeth vs. a defenseless law abiding citizen.

And the thread has deteriorated into the debate of gun laws.

[QUOTE=Idi Amin;22333202]i like how the brits gloat about their peaceful gunfree society and then tell me that if any of the people had guns it would turn into a mix of army of darkness and lord of the flies.[/QUOTE] I didn't gloat anywhere about it being peaceful here. It's not. But I like being able to go outside knowing that at the very worst if I run into the wrong people I'll get chased for a while or maybe get a kicking, but I won't get shot.

[QUOTE=BAZ;22333287]Handgun laws used to be alot more laxed, but after a school shooting with a handgun they were tightened up. Handguns are far too easy to conceal in public, which greatly increases the chance of a crazed shooting.[/QUOTE] Mass murders like this incident aren't usually on impulse. They're planned out ahead of time. When you intend to kill as many people as possible then concealment is not an issue. The guy in the UK had two long guns I believe.

[QUOTE=Wolfie13;22333282]In recent years (Since 1990) there have been specific laws passed to control weapons in the wake of a number of (two) school shootings. While this is primarialy a knee-jerk reaction to a public outcry, it HAS served to reduce the amount of firearms crime (especially shootings) in the years since then.[/QUOTE] you just that if you had a gun you would use it to kill people since when are all british people closet serial killers that can't hold scissors without the temptation to plunge them into an old ladies neck?

[QUOTE=JDK721v2;22333298]Well, the UK doesn't allow concealed carry so a law abiding citizen probably wouldn't be walking around with a pistol on him. So basically you have a criminal armed to the teeth vs. a defenseless law abiding citizen.[/QUOTE] This post confuses me, what situation are you referring to?

[QUOTE=Idi Amin;22333202]i like how the brits gloat about their peaceful gunfree society and then tell me that if any of the people had guns it would turn into a mix of army of darkness and lord of the flies.[/QUOTE] Nobody has said we live in an entirely peaceful society. But reintroducing firearms into public hands would only make a bad problem, into a terrible problem. Stop putting words in people's mouths.

[QUOTE=Conn92;22333317]I didn't gloat anywhere about it being peaceful here. It's not. But I like being able to go outside knowing that at the very worst if I run into the wrong people I'll get chased for a while or maybe get a kicking, but I won't get shot.[/QUOTE] you live in a 3rd world country?

[QUOTE=Wolfie13;22333175]Me owning a gun and potentially going out and shooting at people/shit is nicely infringing upon others. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_crime_in_south_Manchester"]This is[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre"]why we don't[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre"]have "nice"[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Cumbria_shootings"]nice things, like being allowed to tote a pistol in the streets.[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre"]And this is why you shouldn't have nice things, like the ability to fill a shopping list for Wal*Mart as "Diapers, carrots, peas, Ruger 10/22, 3 boxes of .22 wolf ammunition."[/URL] [b]Real crime and potential crime are not the same fucking thing. I can kill you with a knife, a fork, a fucking table, but do you outlaw those? No. Potential crime is not a reason to do something.[/b] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Notable_school_shootings"]Compare the number for "North America" with the number for [U]all[/U] of europe.[/URL][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=JDK721v2;22333298]Well, the UK doesn't allow concealed carry so a law abiding citizen probably wouldn't be walking around with a pistol on him. So basically you have a criminal armed to the teeth vs. a defenseless law abiding citizen.[/QUOTE] I was talking in theory about the UK with the absense of the laws prohibiting concealed carry.

[QUOTE=JDK721v2;22333298]Well, the UK doesn't allow concealed carry so a law abiding citizen probably wouldn't be walking around with a pistol on him. So basically you have a criminal armed to the teeth vs. a defenseless law abiding citizen.[/QUOTE] Which basically shows that even though the law does cut down on gun crime, it also causes civillians to not be able to defend themselves in lethal situations against criminals with illegal firearms?