[QUOTE=Conn92;22334046]Our rising crime rates have nothing to do with the current laws on guns. And maybe your crime rates are dropping, but even so, our gun crime rates are still so much lower than yours.[/QUOTE]
My point is that since your gun laws went into effect crime rose, while our more lax laws haven given way to lower crime rates. The frequency of crime in two countries doesn't matter in this debate, at least not compared side by side. What matters is the rates before and after the laws go into effect. One thing that often annoys me about the gun-ban argument is the way they compare the current rates of two countries, instead of looking at the actual effect that the laws have on the crime rate. They also look at gun crime statistics rather than overall crime statistics. Sure gun crime may go down, but knives and any other easily accessible item that can be used as a weapon begin to be used. In the end, it's about the desire to kill or harm, or hell, even to rob. Weapon choice doesn't affect this. If anything, the knowledge that the victim may be armed is a deterrent.
[editline]07:48PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=SirDigby;22334088]I'm willing to bet that the current state of the economy has much more to do with crime rates than being able to carry a gun hidden.[/QUOTE]
This goes back to before the recession we are in...
shut the fuck up about fucking gun control
[QUOTE=Conn92;22334046]Our rising crime rates have nothing to do with the current laws on guns. And maybe your crime rates are dropping, but even so, our gun crime rates are still so much lower than yours.[/QUOTE]
Link to where you get your figures for the 'rising cirme rate'?
seriously the gun control debate is a) fucking stupid and b) irrelevant. By turning this thing into some sort of international dick waving contest between the uk and the us you are disrespecting the people that were killed and their families.
[QUOTE=dogmachines;22334190]My point is that since your gun laws went into effect crime rose, while our more lax laws haven given way to lower crime rates. The frequency of crime in two countries doesn't matter in this debate, at least not compared side by side. What matters is the rates before and after the laws go into effect. One thing that often annoys me about the gun-ban argument is the way they compare the current rates of two countries, instead of looking at the actual effect that the laws have on the crime rate. They also look at gun crime statistics rather than overall crime statistics. Sure gun crime may go down, but knives and any other easily accessible item that can be used as a weapon begin to be used. In the end, it's about the desire to kill or harm, or hell, even to rob. Weapon choice doesn't affect this. If anything, the knowledge that the victim may be armed is a deterrent.
[editline]07:48PM[/editline]
This goes back to before the recession we are in...[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I wouldn't lie to you for the sake of my arguement, the gun laws have nothing to do with the increasing crime rate, at least here in Scotland, it's more to do with factors such as cheap and widely available drugs and alcohol, general poverty whether or not due to the current state of the economy and a generation of horrible parents, among other things.
If you were in the UK i'd link to a documentry on BBC iPlayer called "The Scheme" as an example. If you want to find it elsewhere I recommend you do, it's hilarious and a particularly accurate representation of life in some of the worse off areas of the country.
[QUOTE=Negrul1;22334214]shut the fuck up about fucking gun control[/QUOTE]
yeah, how dare we discuss gun laws in a thread about a shooting spree
Can a mod close this now, it's turning into a shit fest.
[QUOTE=erazor;22334217]Link to where you get your figures for the 'rising cirme rate'?[/QUOTE]
I don't have any, I just took his word for it. I know they've been rising steadily over the past few years from the news, I don't know they're now declining or not.
[editline]12:59AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Negrul1;22334297]seriously the gun control debate is a) fucking stupid and [b]b) irrelevant.[/b] By turning this thing into some sort of international dick waving contest between the uk and the us you are disrespecting the people that were killed and their families.[/QUOTE]
It's totally relevant. My condolences go out to the dead and their families, but let's be honest, who comes on facepunch to show their respect? Have you seen the volume of news puns most threads like this rack up?
[editline]01:00AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pepsi-cola;22334316]Can a mod close this now, it's turning into a shit fest.[/QUOTE]
Why? People are having relevant discussion. I mean seriously, there isn't really a more appropriate place for a discussion like this unless someone goes and makes a "Gun Control Laws" thread in GD.
and news puns in a situation such as this are just as disrespectful
[QUOTE=Negrul1;22334418]and news puns in a situation such as this are just as disrespectful[/QUOTE]
Of course they are, but it still happens.
[QUOTE=Negrul1;22334418]and news puns in a situation such as this are just as disrespectful[/QUOTE]
Unfortunatley, we're on the internet and these things happen.
[QUOTE=Conn92;22334324]Why? People are having relevant discussion. I mean seriously, there isn't really a more appropriate place for a discussion like this unless someone goes and makes a "Gun Control Laws" thread in GD.[/QUOTE]
why don't you go and make one then, and leave this thread for discussion actually relevant to the topic at hand. And yes, it is irrelevant. If the news story was something like "everyone in the UK secretly has a gun, thereby proving gun control laws are shit" it would be relevant. If it was "obama wants to ban guns in america" it would be fucking relevant. If it was "guns are being un-banned in the UK" THEN it would be relevant. But. It. Isn't. This is a news article about a tragic event that happened today, in which 12 people, including a close relative of someone I personally know, were killed.
And maybe most people don't come to FP to pay their respects, but in a thread such as this they [i]should[/i] just either pay their respects, discuss stuff actually relevant to the article without waving international dicks, or just not post. Maybe that's not the way it is but that's how it should be.
Sad story this one...
also in relation to this thread: Ignorant people shouldn't bother voicing views online, they'll just end up in a shitty "prove this, prove that" arguement about their opinions with other ignorant people.
(in my opinion) :)
[QUOTE=BlazeFresh;22334460]Unfortunatley, we're on the internet and these things happen.[/QUOTE]
not saying they don't, just saying they shouldn't. This isn't 4chan, we should all be able to be civilised people who can be civilised and polite about this.
[QUOTE=Negrul1;22334538]why don't you go and make one then, and leave this thread for discussion actually relevant to the topic at hand. And yes, it is irrelevant. If the news story was something like "everyone in the UK secretly has a gun, thereby proving gun control laws are shit" it would be relevant. If it was "obama wants to ban guns in america" it would be fucking relevant. If it was "guns are being un-banned in the UK THEN it would be relevant. But. It. Isn't. This is a news article about a tragic event that happened today, in which 12 people, including a close relative of someone I personally know, were killed.
And maybe most people don't come to FP to pay their respects, but in a thread such as this they [i]should[/i] just either pay their respects, discuss stuff actually relevant to the article without waving international dicks, or just not post. Maybe that's not the way it is but that's how it should be.[/QUOTE]
I don't have enough interest to go and make one, but I'll put my piece in when the topic's at hand.
I'm sorry, but I think a discussion about gun laws and gun crime hold a lot of relevance in a thread about the occurance of a gun crime, but I'm sorry for the difference in opinion, and for your loss.
[editline]01:11AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=DeeCee79;22334564]Sad story this one...
also in relation to this thread: Ignorant people shouldn't bother voicing views online, they'll just end up in a shitty "prove this, prove that" arguement about their opinions with other ignorant people.
(in my opinion) :)[/QUOTE]
I think everyone's entitled to an opinion and the right to voice it, be it ignorant or not.
[QUOTE=Negrul1;22334581]not saying they don't, just saying they shouldn't. This isn't 4chan, we should all be able to be civilised people who can be civilised and polite about this.[/QUOTE]
I agree whole-heartedly.
[QUOTE=Bengley;22321443]This happens so rarely, it is working very well.[/QUOTE]
Given that the UK records crimes in such an akward manner and has even admitted to marginally adjust statistics, it's hard to judge. It happens occasionally in the US which has lax gun control, It happens commonly in Mexico which has tight gun control, it happens almost never in Switzerland which has gun control as lax as the US, if not more considering servicemen are allowed to keep their rifles after doing two years of service.
There is no correlation.
[QUOTE=joe588;22321969]From a gun dealer? Shotgun licences are easy to get.[/QUOTE]
:cawg:
Oh man, you actually think these people acquire them [i]legally?[/i]
[QUOTE=David29;22330358]Are we not entitled to defend our laws? If I called you a dick*, would you not argue against it?
*I'm not calling you a dick. I bet you are a very nice guy really.[/QUOTE]
I'm more talking to the people who are inciting the arguments, not those defending themselves. I choose not to take sides here.
I'm too tired to go through the thread and ban anyone who is being disrespectful, so when I wake up I'm going to do it. If you think you've even been remotely disrespectful, edit your post to something more suitable. You've got 6 hours
[QUOTE=Hezzy;22338496]I'm too tired to go through the thread and ban anyone who is being disrespectful, so when I wake up I'm going to do it. If you think you've even been remotely disrespectful, edit your post to something more suitable. You've got 6 hours[/QUOTE]
Laying down the law. One nap at a time.
[QUOTE=Loen;22335121]
Oh man, you actually think these people acquire them [i]legally?[/i][/QUOTE]
I find it interesting how a person for gun control will claim they got their own gun legally, however anyone who does something wrong did not.
[QUOTE=Hezzy;22338496]I'm too tired to go through the thread and ban anyone who is being disrespectful, so when I wake up I'm going to do it. If you think you've even been remotely disrespectful, edit your post to something more suitable. You've got 6 hours[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i29.tinypic.com/34ss8ow.jpg[/img]
FYI all this talk about gun control is completely irrelevant to this story.
It was almost certainly a legally owned shotgun.
Heck there’s talk about further restricting ownership of shotguns after this.
[QUOTE=A.C.I.D;22340109]FYI all this talk about gun control is completely irrelevant to this story.
It was almost certainly a legally owned shotgun.
Heck there’s talk about further restricting ownership of shotguns after this.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but can you only purchase birdshot shells here?
[QUOTE=Conn92;22333394]No, I live in the UK.[/QUOTE]
So yes.
[editline]11:16AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=A.C.I.D;22340109]FYI all this talk about gun control is completely irrelevant to this story.
It was almost certainly a legally owned shotgun.
Heck there’s talk about further restricting ownership of shotguns after this.[/QUOTE]
I fucking KNEW IT.
this is a really sad and tragic event so can people kindly drop this gun law argument and be civilised?
Just watching the BBC news- has been officially confirmed that both guns used were fully licensed.
It's such a small community, so they're predicting a massive spike in depression/grief problems - since everybody knows one another, they'll all know someone who's died.
Also, did anyone else here the news today? The guy killed one guy because he kept skipping the taxi rank queue and then went on to kill his own twin brother! And he has a 16 year old son and an older son who's just had a baby. And a sick, dying elderly mother! This is really messed up.
The idea of giving more people guns to [i]reduce[/i] gun crime seems absurd to me.
These arguments are futile. Yes, banning guns in America wouldn't work. We can see that. But England is not America, it's a totally different situation.
I as a British citizen do not want America type gun laws. I'm happy with ours, and I simply don't want more people to have guns. We're not the same culture.
The "only criminals have guns" argument is pissing me off too. People who argue that are suggesting that practically every criminal in England has easy access to guns and most already own them - which is pretty much bullshit. "Concealed carry" and all that crap isn't necessary when our gun crime is so low.
This thread is fucking disgusting. 12 people lose their lives in a horrible tragedy and you people come in here waving your patriotic dicks, looking for something to blame and arguing about who's government's policy works best.
You should all be ashamed. A lot of people had their lives taken away yesterday and many others had theirs destroyed. Think about the micro picture, not the macro for a change, you autistic morons.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
