‘Slovakia to Slovaks’: Thousands join anti-Islamization protest in Bratislava, dozens arrested - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Killuah;48019750]Yes they do along with the wealth that's passed on to the son.[/QUOTE] No, they don't. A son of a murderer isn't himself guilty of murder. My family fled Slovakia when your country invaded. There are less than 30 of us left with our name, and less by blood. 30 in the whole god damn world we can say are for certain our kin because we lost contact with everyone in the old world and our name is too horribly misspelled to trace. There are whole ghost towns of forums and societies devoted to tracing Slovakian heritages full of people lamenting the fact that all contact, all kin were lost after escaping the country. If the sins of the father are the sins of the son, you especially have no right to complain about the desire of these people to preserve their heritage or cultural identity. I agree, these nationalistic parties are indeed misguided, malicious, and morally and ethically bankrupt. Slovakians should recognize this sort of shit is what hurt so many of them in the first place. I feel for the refugees. My family only survives to this day thanks to the US being so kind as to take in us as refugees ourselves. People are hurt and have been for generations, and there's no easy solution. Fuck the lot of you trying to simplify this as just a bunch of 'racist white folk' angry about 'dem darkies' or whatever taking over. You don't know what it's like growing up taught to be ashamed of your own name or heritage. You don't know what it's like trying to reclaim it only to find dust and ashes. I can't even imagine living there, growing up under occupation after occupation with foreign bodies and governments moving people in to live on the land stolen from your murdered friends and families. The nationalistic anti-immigrant nonsense is nonsense, but I can't help but feel some sympathy for these people as well. How many of them were like my grandparents? How many of them had it worse? It's a complex situation fueled by pain and bad blood. It's a situation fueled by the primitive idea of guilt by association, that the sins of the father are the sins of the son, that guilt is somehow transferable. It's shitty, and nothing can really fix what happened, but that doesn't make it hurt any less. Writing their motivations off as purely racial hatred or treating them as sub human filth isn't going to make the problem go away. People are afraid and still licking old wounds, and as others have pointed out few people are willing to publicly address these issues with the depth or gravity the situation demands. You're not helping. You're just being smug assholes shitting on people that probably have already been shit on and taken advantage of. For years I've dreamed of moving back to Slovakia. Yeah, maybe it isn't as developed as where I'm at now but here doesn't feel like home. That sense of longing is something hard to explain. It's a pretty common feeling for people with similar family histories. My friend and old housemate was a Liberian refugee and moved back last year DESPITE the Ebola outbreak. It's a thing you have to live with to understand. Slovakia to Slovaks is a sentiment I can feel and understand on some levels, and I'm sure I'm not alone in my feelings. But for you lot, particularly those without ties to the country, or worse yet ties to those that oppressed and slaughtered those that do, for you to shame a desire to recover what was lost leaves me with nothing but contempt. Ignorance and hatred begets ignorance and hatred, and the whole situation leaves me feeling helpless and ill.

[QUOTE=1legmidget;48020290]No, they don't. A son of a murderer isn't himself guilty of murder. My family fled Slovakia when your country invaded. There are less than 30 of us left with our name, and less by blood. 30 in the whole god damn world we can say are for certain our kin because we lost contact with everyone in the old world and our name is too horribly misspelled to trace. There are whole ghost towns of forums and societies devoted to tracing Slovakian heritages full of people lamenting the fact that all contact, all kin were lost after escaping the country. If the sins of the father are the sins of the son, you especially have no right to complain about the desire of these people to preserve their heritage or cultural identity. I agree, these nationalistic parties are indeed misguided, malicious, and morally and ethically bankrupt. Slovakians should recognize this sort of shit is what hurt so many of them in the first place. I feel for the refugees. My family only survives to this day thanks to the US being so kind as to take in us as refugees ourselves. People are hurt and have been for generations, and there's no easy solution. Fuck the lot of you trying to simplify this as just a bunch of 'racist white folk' angry about 'dem darkies' or whatever taking over. You don't know what it's like growing up taught to be ashamed of your own name or heritage. You don't know what it's like trying to reclaim it only to find dust and ashes. I can't even imagine living there, growing up under occupation after occupation with foreign bodies and governments moving people in to live on the land stolen from your murdered friends and families. The nationalistic anti-immigrant nonsense is nonsense, but I can't help but feel some sympathy for these people as well. How many of them were like my grandparents? How many of them had it worse? It's a complex situation fueled by pain and bad blood. It's a situation fueled by the primitive idea of guilt by association, that the sins of the father are the sins of the son, that guilt is somehow transferable. It's shitty, and nothing can really fix what happened, but that doesn't make it hurt any less. Writing their motivations off as purely racial hatred or treating them as sub human filth isn't going to make the problem go away. People are afraid and still licking old wounds, and as others have pointed out few people are willing to publicly address these issues with the depth or gravity the situation demands. You're not helping. You're just being smug assholes shitting on people that probably have already been shit on and taken advantage of. For years I've dreamed of moving back to Slovakia. Yeah, maybe it isn't as developed as where I'm at now but here doesn't feel like home. That sense of longing is something hard to explain. It's a pretty common feeling for people with similar family histories. My friend and old housemate was a Liberian refugee and moved back last year DESPITE the Ebola outbreak. It's a thing you have to live with to understand. Slovakia to Slovaks is a sentiment I can feel and understand on some levels, and I'm sure I'm not alone in my feelings. But for you lot, particularly those without ties to the country, or worse yet ties to those that oppressed and slaughtered those that do, for you to shame a desire to recover what was lost leaves me with nothing but contempt. Ignorance and hatred begets ignorance and hatred, and the whole situation leaves me feeling helpless and ill.[/QUOTE] Guilt and responsibility are different from each other. The guilt lies with the father, the responsibility of talking to the victims family about what kind of man the father was lies with the son. My Grandfather is from Poland, my Grandmother is from the far West of Germany, our whole family was split in two parts after the GDR.(was born there). I have no family history beyond my grandparents. Do you really think I can't understand your point? And I think you're seeing this from a wrong perspective. This is not about people being forced out of their land to make place for immigrants. This is people seeking help and a better life because they can't deal with the shit in their home countries. Shit we(the EU,USA and yes also Slovakia as part of the Warsaw Pact) caused in big parts. Imagine if the US would've said 'America to the Americans' back then. Tbh. out of everyone I would expect someone with a backstory like yours to have the most understanding of how retarded "xxxx to the xxxxers" slogans are. Where do you think " taught to be ashamed of your own name or heritage" comes from? Slogans like "Slovakia to the Slovakians" thrive on dehumanizing and generalizing foreigners with methods like that. What do you think muslim immigrants have to deal with because they are muslim. I can tell you. It's " to be ashamed of your own name or heritage"

[QUOTE=1legmidget;48020290]Slovakia to Slovaks is a sentiment I can feel and understand on some levels, and I'm sure I'm not alone in my feelings. But for you lot, particularly those without ties to the country, or worse yet ties to those that oppressed and slaughtered those that do, for you to shame a desire to recover what was lost leaves me with nothing but contempt. Ignorance and hatred begets ignorance and hatred, and the whole situation leaves me feeling helpless and ill. [/QUOTE] Amen. People often forget some European flags have been waving freely for just 25 years, and have fought for centuries to get where they are now. And yet here people use terms like "protecting privileged white male" bullshit that makes absolutely no sense. [QUOTE=Killuah;48020345]This is people seeking help and a better life because they can't deal with the shit in their home countries. Shit we(the EU and yes also Slovakia as part of the Warsaw Pact) caused in big parts. Imagine if the US would've said 'America to the Americans' back then.[/quote] Blaming a little country like Slovakia and putting it in the same basket as the big World powers is just bullshit, as simple as that.

Imagine using the term "white cis male privilege" unironically.

what are muslims even doing to deserve to be thrown out of the country they legally live in? they just live there, like everyone else.

"Slovakia is for Slovakians" How are people arguing this isn't racist? [QUOTE=Rangergxi;48019277]Diversity for diversities sake shouldn't trump the fact that European countries are [u]suffering from high unemployment and strained social systems from all of the immigration[/u] and tough economic times [I]or[/I] the problems caused by the extremist ideas that these people are bringing into their respective countries. [/quote] It doesn't work like that. You put more people in a country, you put more consumers into a country, thus creating new jobs to provide services, products and infrastructure to those new consumers. Immigrants don't steal jobs. Immigrants will find work and pay taxes, thus increasing the public spending pot directly in proportion to the population. Economic and employment problems right now are down to the global economic crisis, and an awful response from the worlds governments, generally austerity which only makes it worse. Generally, immigration brings in more to an economy than it takes out. Also immigrants didn't invent extremism, and there's only a teeny tiny minority of them who are extremist, so we shouldn't make them all suffer as a result. I don't get why it's always neo-liberals and far righters who support tight immigration controls. Immigrants are all potential customers and cheap labourers.

[QUOTE=Boaraes;48020460]what are muslims even doing to deserve to be thrown out of the country they legally live in? they just live there, like everyone else.[/QUOTE] duh, obviously they are all sleeper cells for isis we need to stop them before its too late

[QUOTE=Boaraes;48020460]what are muslims even doing to deserve to be thrown out of the country they legally live in? they just live there, like everyone else.[/QUOTE] They're leaving voluntarily because either A. there are no job opportunities and they'll starve to death if they stay or B. there's a war going on and they'll be shot/bombed/starved to death if they stay. Hell, just look at what one of our own guys has to go through: [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1460625[/url] He's been talking about getting the hell out and going to Russia or someplace. I know I'd sure as hell want to leave if I had to live through that shit. Wherever he ends up, I sure as hell hope people don't get in his face over his nationality. He doesn't deserve that.

[QUOTE=Rapscallion92;48019115]Yeah it's almost like the far right is growing because the typical mainstream parties won't actually listen to public opinion or something.[/QUOTE] As far as I know, most people in Europe aren't Islamophobic, or anti-immigration. It's a vocal minority we're talking about.

[QUOTE=Boaraes;48020460]what are muslims even doing to deserve to be thrown out of the country they legally live in? they just live there, like everyone else.[/QUOTE] european media companies know that they can turn heads by plastering a story about how some muslim person committed a crime all over their tabloids and prime time sections. then, when somebody says "hey maybe we shouldn't be marginalizing this massive group of people" they get shouted down with "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD!"

Islamophobia is bad and all but I don't think I would like it either if some international body told my country "we're going to inject a ton of foreigners into your population and you get no choice in the matter". the whole "quota" thing is ridiculous and it's really easy to see why people are angry about it.

[QUOTE=Fouytan222;48018868]As an ignorant American, I have to wonder how many of these middle eastern immigrants are actually part of some grand conspiracy to "islamify" Europe, as many right-wingers would have me believe, or if they are simply moderate Muslims seeking refuge from the increasingly extremist and war-torn countries of the middle east. Like, keep in mind, we are in a point in history where ISIS is rampaging across the middle east, razing and raping entire communities that don't subscribe to their fucked up version of Shariah Law. People from the middle east should be allowed the freedom to get as far away from that as they can.[/QUOTE] Keep in mind, that most people don't actually believe there's some grand conspiracy (the people who think people think that usually don't have an understand of anything really) Instead people are afraid of a culture clash. [QUOTE=CrumbleShake;48020589]As far as I know, most people in Europe aren't Islamophobic, or anti-immigration. It's a vocal minority we're talking about.[/QUOTE] Eh, I'll be honest. From what I hear what people saying here and there, a huge amount of people are concerned.

[QUOTE=Broguts;48019151]Yeah China is just the Chinese, it's not like there's enormous Turkish and Mongol populations in there, not to mention Tajiks, Koreans and Manchurians.[/QUOTE] Both Turkish and mongol populations are encouraged to become more Chinese, there's a lot of unrest due to those ethnical tensions... Koreans are mostly economic immigrants, and are very few in number. Manchurians are Chinese...

I hate how every time someone protests against excessive immigration and islamization (it's not fun when muslims establish muslim blocks in your city is it) they are deemed racist. Usually people who dont know what they are talking about do it, but it's still sad. Nationalism is not bad or evil or far right, nationalism is apositive trait. Not speaking of radicals of course. The people protesting are not radicals and they protest for a very valid reason. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=CrumbleShake;48020558]"Slovakia is for Slovakians" How are people arguing this isn't racist? It doesn't work like that. You put more people in a country, you put more consumers into a country, thus creating new jobs to provide services, products and infrastructure to those new consumers. Immigrants don't steal jobs. Immigrants will find work and pay taxes, thus increasing the public spending pot directly in proportion to the population. Economic and employment problems right now are down to the global economic crisis, and an awful response from the worlds governments, generally austerity which only makes it worse. Generally, immigration brings in more to an economy than it takes out. Also immigrants didn't invent extremism, and there's only a teeny tiny minority of them who are extremist, so we shouldn't make them all suffer as a result. I don't get why it's always neo-liberals and far righters who support tight immigration controls. Immigrants are all potential customers and cheap labourers.[/QUOTE] By your logic if you just make immigration to your country open for anyone your magic "more people=more consumption=more production" formula will make your country rich and prosperous. I wonder why we even have borders if it is that simple. Or why US has the greencard system so that only people with money and required services can immigrate. Why not just allow anyone in? It's not that simple. I agree the problem is mostly not economic, but being overflown with absolutely alien jobless immigrants that know neither language nor any useful expertise is not good for economy. You see, they don't work. They just receive their money for doing nothing and get by. Their culture is extremely invasive, their mentality stubborn. They dont assimilate, they dont become members of society, they instead establish their societies within an existing society. Sort of cultural enclaves. There are people who don't do these things, immigrate and live productively. But due to Brussel rulings Slovakia dpesnt get to choose, so they will get mostly destructive people, refugees. Slovakia is a tiny country and it can be a disaster.

I don't know what the problem is here. They want to prevent people from getting in. It's not like they're trying to holocaust muslims. It's their own god damn country and they do as they please, and some upper middle class american dude's opinion on the matter is laughably irrelevant.

[QUOTE=Moupi;48023435]I don't know what the problem is here. They want to prevent people from getting in. It's not like they're trying to holocaust muslims. It's their own god damn country and they do as they please, and some upper middle class american dude's opinion on the matter is laughably irrelevant.[/QUOTE] I guess it's more about the presentation than idea itself. In Russia we have somewhat relevant social opinion on immigrants yet somehow we don't whine when they do the hardest, dirtiest, cheapest job no russian citizen would do.

[QUOTE=Broguts;48019151]Yeah China is just the Chinese, it's not like there's enormous Turkish and Mongol populations in there, not to mention Tajiks, Koreans and Manchurians.[/QUOTE] In their bigger cities. 99.99% of what You see is ethnic Chinese. To the point that people want to take pictures with you if you are middle eastern, Japanese, African or western.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;48023527] In Russia we have somewhat relevant social opinion on immigrants yet somehow we don't whine when they do the hardest, dirtiest, cheapest job no russian citizen would do.[/QUOTE] Not shitting on immigrants here, but it's not like it's even remotely possible for potential Russian to get such a job in a lot of places. Organizations that hire immigrants [b]prefer[/b] them because they're easily abused. So we have huge unemployment among citizens, as well as a large number of immigrants being treated as slaves and abused. It's neither immigrants' nor Russian citizens' fault that this sort of thing happens. Of course certain... right wing elements prefer to ignore the suffering of immigrants and pretend that they live like kings on [b]our soil[/b]. They're not interested in finding the root of the problem. Just blame the immigrants, who are as much, if not more, of victims than unemployed Russians. And shitton of people just fall for that.

[QUOTE=gudman;48023653]Not shitting on immigrants here, but it's not like it's even remotely possible for potential Russian to get such a job in a lot of places. Organizations that hire immigrants [b]prefer[/b] them because they're easily abused. So we have huge unemployment among citizens, as well as a large number of immigrants being treated as slaves and abused. It's neither immigrants' nor Russian citizens' fault that this sort of thing happens. Of course certain... right wing elements prefer to ignore the suffering of immigrants and pretend that they live like kings on [b]our soil[/b]. They're not interested in finding the root of the problem. Just blame the immigrants, who are as much, if not more, of victims than unemployed Russians. And shitton of people just fall for that.[/QUOTE] Well, yeah i agree 100%, only few get the reasoning why immigrants are priority for job position in a first place.

[QUOTE=Killuah;48018946]Jordan currently houses over 2 million refugees. Jordan.[/QUOTE] We'll Jordan's house [i]is[/i] pretty big.

Most European states are welfare states, and aren't capable of sustaining an uncontrolled influx of Non-western immigrants, without the welfare systems collapsing at one point. That's because the non-western immigrants which arrive on rubber boats right now have almost no chance of competing on the already oversaturated European labour market, be it due to a lack of education, an unfinished course of assimilation, or outright racism ( NGO companies rather hire Poles/Romanians to do the dirty work than non-western immigrants. This makes Eastern Europeans Europes' Mexicans, while non-western immigrants just stay unemployed in very large numbers ). An uncontrolled influx of non-western immigrants is possible, but they would just pile up on the bottom of society until our welfare states can't sustain their basic needs anymore and they will have to live in metal sheet favelas at the outskirts of Paris at one point.

[QUOTE=Moupi;48023435]I don't know what the problem is here. They want to prevent people from getting in. It's not like they're trying to holocaust muslims. It's their own god damn country and they do as they please, and some upper middle class american dude's opinion on the matter is laughably irrelevant.[/QUOTE] "Things are fine as long as you don't holocaust people" [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=cheezey;48023870]Most European states are welfare states, and aren't capable of sustaining an uncontrolled influx of Non-western immigrants, without the welfare systems collapsing at one point. That's because the non-western immigrants which arrive on rubber boats right now have almost no chance of competing on the already oversaturated European labour market, be it due to a lack of education, an unfinished course of assimilation, or outright racism ( NGO companies rather hire Poles/Romanians to do the dirty work than non-western immigrants. This makes Eastern Europeans Europes' Mexicans, while non-western immigrants just stay unemployed in very large numbers ). An uncontrolled influx of non-western immigrants is possible, but they would just pile up on the bottom of society until our welfare states can't sustain their basic needs anymore and they will have to live in metal sheet favelas at the outskirts of Paris at one point.[/QUOTE] Except immigrants actually generate money for the countries and are less of a burden to the "welfare" than the citizens themselves.

[QUOTE=Killuah;48023879] Except immigrants actually generate money for the countries and are less of a burden to the "welfare" than the citizens themselves.[/QUOTE] The Poles doing agricultural work indeed generate a lot of money. The illigal immigrants ( Which can't even seek employment ) and non-western, naturalized immigrants generally can't compete on the market and need to be sustained by the citizens. ( Including the descendants of non-western immigrants who immigrated in the 1970's and are sufficiently assimilated to compete over a job now ). Non western immigrants thus form a burden on the welfare state. Studies vary in their numbers, some studies find that supporting an average non-immigrant for life costs the British state about one million euros, while an economic study in Denmark calculated that supporting the life of an average immigrant costs about 500.000 euros in tax payer money. ( This is after deducting the costs from the money eventually generated. ) Source: [url]http://www.hegnar.no/okonomi/artikkel325140.ece[/url]

[QUOTE=Killuah;48023879] Except immigrants actually generate money for the countries and are less of a burden to the "welfare" than the citizens themselves.[/QUOTE] Do you have a source? This sounds highly unlikely.

[QUOTE=cheezey;48024050]The Poles doing agricultural work indeed generate a lot of money. The illigal immigrants ( Which can't even seek employment ) and non-western, naturalized immigrants generally can't compete on the market and need to be sustained by the citizens. ( Including the descendants of non-western immigrants who immigrated in the 1970's and are sufficiently assimilated to compete over a job now ). Non western immigrants thus form a burden on the welfare state. Studies vary in their numbers, some studies find that supporting an average non-immigrant for life costs the British state about one million euros, while an economic study in Denmark calculated that supporting the life of an average immigrant costs about 500.000 euros in tax payer money. ( This is after deducting the costs from the money eventually generated. ) Source: [url]http://www.hegnar.no/okonomi/artikkel325140.ece[/url][/QUOTE] These protests are not against illegal immigrants. The whole debate is not about illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants also don't get any significant amount of money from the "welfare" system. [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=itisjuly;48024080]Do you have a source? This sounds highly unlikely.[/QUOTE] [url]http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/[/url] [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] [url]http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29910497[/url] [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] [url]http://www.jstor.org/stable/2138165?seq=20#page_scan_tab_contents[/url] page 42 [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] [url]https://cdr.lib.unc.edu/indexablecontent/uuid:d21ff80f-0e90-4e9b-ae5c-a374ebdbc6b4[/url] [editline]22nd June 2015[/editline] Several hundreds more for all kinds of different countries all over the world and they come to the conclusion that immigrants actually help to sustain the welfare system.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48018788]Oh boy howdy it's great to have far-right parties in power when there's a "minority problem", especially in Europe. that went swimmingly the last time, mhm[/QUOTE] Dude. fucking breathe. Jesus tap dancing christ. Go outside and get some air before you have a fucking aneurysm.

[QUOTE=ZakkShock;48024518]Dude. fucking breathe. Jesus tap dancing christ. Go outside and get some air before you have a fucking aneurysm.[/QUOTE] what?

[QUOTE=Killuah;48023879]"Things are fine as long as you don't holocaust people"[/QUOTE] Glad we agree! [QUOTE=Killuah;48023879]Except immigrants actually generate money for the countries and are less of a burden to the "welfare" than the citizens themselves.[/QUOTE] Immigrants also make jobs harder to find for native people because that's what happens when you import thousands of cheap unskilled labour.

[QUOTE=Moupi;48024942]Glad we agree! Immigrants also make jobs harder to find for native people because that's what happens when you import thousands of cheap unskilled labour.[/QUOTE] except in societies of the first world they are often taking the jobs that nobody wants anyway. and even more often they aren't even allowed to work even if they want.

I think this thread is more about this: (France) [IMG]https://uncletalib.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/paris-street.jpg[/IMG]