First scholars' ranking rates Donald Trump as worst president ever
165 replies, posted
Shame Eisenhower isn't higher up the list, good man that.
[QUOTE=Amber902;53144085]The nukes had an actual purpose and arguably saved more lives then they extinguished. The internment has no justification whatsoever. The fact that youre trying to compare them implies that you think the internment had some military justification.[/QUOTE]
It did not. It had no actual real world military practice as we are now full aware.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53144080]It was a terrible time and I'm not trying to downplay it and I genuinely think it was terrible it was done.
But that horrible shit having been done doesn't change the good that was also done. It makes it tainted for sure and I wouldn't personally say FDR is the best president for Mt Rushmoore, but he also helped keep the country going with the fireside chats and a variety of other elements of his personality and policy. Yes, he was a bad person. I don't think he was the worst president by any stretch though.
Sorry if that's offensive but I don't think it is.
[[/QUOTE]
So hes not so bad of a president because he did a weekly radio broadcast???? FDR didnt save us from the great depression. WWII did.
If you think he's a bad person then why are you even defending him???
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53144024]I know full well about that instance of racism and xenophobia. I'm not forgiving him of it, it was a product of the time, of being at war, and yes, when we look back on it, it was stupid.
Thank god hindsight is so much easier to make judgments with.[/QUOTE]
Yeah man, thank god we locked up all those slant eyed japs. Who knows what they could have done?
Huh? What do you mean they're US citizens with human rights? Ain't no nips or chinks in my country.
This discussion is weird as fuck to me, I feel like I'm missing a page here or something. FDR throwing American citizens into an internment camp for being the wrong kind of American is a "nasty blemish", but something like Trump getting rid of LGBT bathroom rights or deporting illegal immigrants are horrible things that would throw you guys into a rage.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting what Trump does because I find him to be a despicable person and those things he's doing are despicable, but how is FDR any better when he did something even worse? True he's done good things, but people will constantly sling shit on someone for one little bad thing that they've done, so what makes FDR so much better than other people who do such awful things?
It honestly seems like you guys are just defending/downplaying FDR's actions because of the person who happens to be pointing it out is someone you dislike (at least that's what I assume).
[QUOTE=Lambeth;53144089]Read whatever you want into my posts, I'm trying to be as honest and direct as I can.[/QUOTE]
Not saying you specifically, but I hear this a lot. This weird, tip-toe walk around internment that has just a tad bit of criticism, but then leaps to whataboutism in regards to other actions in some bizarre attempt to downplay them
[QUOTE=Amber902;53144010]Like do any of you actually know anything about the internment camps?[/QUOTE]
Yes. Writing this off the top of my head, no use of references:
The internment of Japanese-Americans consisted of forced relocation of immigrants of Japanese descent during WW2. The camps were basically on par with POW camps - under armed guard, very spartan, and with limited access to medical care and rationed food, but they were not forced-labor camps. Casualty rates were obviously higher than the baseline civilian population but were comparable to eg. Dust Bowl refugee camps.
The internment was begun under executive order by FDR, under advice of military leadership. However, the actual study ordered by the military had found Japanese immigrants were unlikely to take hostile action, especially later generations. These results were ignored by the military command - I do not offhand know if FDR himself even saw that study. The study was proven correct by the actions of soldiers who enlisted to escape the internment camps - they fought quite valiantly and with perfect loyalty.
[QUOTE=Amber902;53144010]FDR at his worst illegally imprisoned thousands of US citizens after stripping them of all their property. He did this out of nothing but pure racism.
To say youd rather have FDR at his worst just shows how ignorant you are of what FDR did.[/QUOTE]
Are you perhaps ignorant of what Trump's been doing? The pathetic response to Hurricane Maria literally killed thousands, all because Trump is racist. I would not be surprised if future history books describe it as genocide, in the same way the Holodomor is now usually classified, although the scale is obviously much smaller. And that is hardly the only thing Trump has done that would qualify as a crime against humanity.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53144092]It did not. It had no actual real world military practice as we are now full aware.[/QUOTE]
Didn't they basically just want to scare the fuck out of everybody?
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53144088]I’d say that it was a hideous act of massed murder that achieved nothing. Much like how I view the atomic bombs, which were just so horrendous that it forced Japan to surrender. It gets no praise from me.[/QUOTE]
I called your initial post "Hyperbolic" because you said America was more harmed by him, than helped by him. I don't think this is the case, and I am not downplaying the horrors of being in a concentration camp for your race. It [B]IS[/B] horrible. I do not think America was more harmed by him in the long run because yes, his successes can be attributed to every advisor he ever had as if he had nothing to do with them, but it was a joint effort, and I can't say I know the "What if" scenarios well enough to say for certain that Truman or anyone else would have done those things better. Truman wasn't a racist as far as we know(not to the same degree anyways) but I don't know if a "What if Truman replaced FDR" would result in a better America. I don't think you can know that. Which is what was implied by your hyperbolic statement that he left it off worse.
[editline]19th February 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=dustyjo;53144096]Yeah man, thank god we locked up all those slant eyed japs. Who knows what they could have done?
Huh? What do you mean they're US citizens with human rights? Ain't no nips or chinks in my country.[/QUOTE]
Yep. That's what I implied.
Because Zings will better communicate a complicated issue than anything else you could say :)
[QUOTE=gman003-main;53144104]
Are you perhaps ignorant of what Trump's been doing? The pathetic response to Hurricane Maria literally killed thousands, all because Trump is racist. I would not be surprised if future history books describe it as genocide, in the same way the Holodomor is now usually classified, although the scale is obviously much smaller. And that is hardly the only thing Trump has done that would qualify as a crime against humanity.[/QUOTE]
Again with the “What about” argument in regards to internment. Guess what we can criticize both
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53144092]It did not. It had no actual real world military practice as we are now full aware.[/QUOTE]
There is no true scholarly concensous on this.
[QUOTE=Amber902;53144093]So hes not so bad of a president because he did a weekly radio broadcast???? FDR didnt save us from the great depression. WWII did.
If you think he's a bad person then why are you even defending him???[/QUOTE]
Because the initial point I responded to was hyperbolic like I stated it was.
I think he's a bad person, I don't think he's the worst president.
I didn't know we could only talk about these things if we were all on the same page, or diametrically opposed.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53144107]
Yep. That's what I implied.
Because Zings will better communicate a complicated issue than anything else you could say :)[/QUOTE]
Then explain to us why it was okay because it was during war time. You’ve implied that a lot.
Please, explain what you meant by that.
[QUOTE=Amber902;53144093]So hes not so bad of a president because he did a weekly radio broadcast???? [B]FDR didnt save us from the great depression. WWII did[/B].
If you think he's a bad person then why are you even defending him???[/QUOTE]
Various New Deal policies contributed to a recovering (albeit gradually) economy. The 1933 Banking Act (aka Glass-Steagall) enacted banking regulations and established the FDIC to prevent the stock market from crashing like it did again. To say it was solely WWII that got us out of it is blatantly false.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53144114]Then explain to us why it was okay because it was during war time. You’ve implied that a lot.
Please, explain what you meant by that.[/QUOTE]
Please can you find where I said it was Okay?
I didn't. I said it was terrible.
Believing that people at a certain time had the wrong info makes me a racist according to your logic.
[editline]19th February 2018[/editline]
Conversations like this are a shit ton easier when you don't presuppose the person you're talking with is whatever the fuck you want to call them
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53144118]Please can you find where I said it was Okay?
I didn't. I said it was terrible.
Believing that people at a certain time had the wrong info makes me a racist according to your logic.[/QUOTE]
You explicitly stated that, because there was war, it had reasons to happen. You also say “we haven’t experienced what they did so we can’t really comment”. You say “thank god for hindsight”.
You are not making a good case for yourself. You are clearly either ignorant of the extent of it, or trying to downplay it. You’ve run around in circles making it out that I’m claiming your a racist or something.
Long and short of it: FDR was a miserable person and at best a middle of the road President who is glorified for his position as a leader during WWII and his minor reforms to the economy.
[QUOTE=bdd458;53144110]There is no true scholarly concensous on this.[/QUOTE]
That's correct but I'm also hedging my bets a bit while I'm getting interrogated
[editline]19th February 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53144124]You explicitly stated that, because there was war, it had reasons to happen. You also say “we haven’t experienced what they did so we can’t really comment”. You say “thank god for hindsight”.
You are not making a good case for yourself. You are clearly either ignorant of the extent of it, or trying to downplay it.[/QUOTE]
No. That's a false dichotomy.
I just said what I thought, and you ignored it. I don't really want to restate this for you to not read it, or misread it intentionally again.
But here we go.
They had information they acted on. We know that info was wrong now, but they didn't know that. Judging them, using the knowledge we have now, seems incorrect at the very least.
[QUOTE=PaChIrA;53144098]This discussion is weird as fuck to me, I feel like I'm missing a page here or something. FDR throwing American citizens into an internment camp for being the wrong kind of American is a "nasty blemish", but something like Trump getting rid of LGBT bathroom rights or deporting illegal immigrants are horrible things that would throw you guys into a rage.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting what Trump does because I find him to be a despicable person and those things he's doing are despicable, but how is FDR any better when he did something even worse? True he's done good things, but people will constantly sling shit on someone for one little bad thing that they've done, so what makes FDR so much better than other people who do such awful things?
It honestly seems like you guys are just defending/downplaying FDR's actions because of the person who happens to be pointing it out is someone you dislike (at least that's what I assume).[/QUOTE]
In many ways FDR held the country together while Trump uh seems to be actively pulling it apart.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53144124]You explicitly stated that, because there was war, it had reasons to happen. You also say “we haven’t experienced what they did so we can’t really comment”. You say “thank god for hindsight”.
You are not making a good case for yourself. You are clearly either ignorant of the extent of it, or trying to downplay it. You’ve run around in circles making it out that I’m claiming your a racist or something.
Long and short of it: FDR was a miserable person and at best a middle of the road President who is glorified for his position as a leader during WWII and his minor reforms to the economy.[/QUOTE]
So your initial hyperbolic post [B]was[/B] hyperbolic?
Are you seriously trying to say that Trump committed a fucking genocide in order to make FDR seem better? Im vehemently antitrump but what you're saying is so far removed from reason that is laughable. Furthermore your knowledge of the internment is quite lacking. The camps where so "spartan" that the first wave of internees at manzanar didn't even have shelters. It got so bad that many internees had to live in horse stables at the repurposed santa anita racetrack. When the barracks welre completed 3-4 families were forced into each of them. These barracks where smaller then many one room apartments. So if by spartan you mean "subpoverty levels of squalor" then they were indeed quite spartan.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53144125]
They had information they acted on. We know that info was wrong now, but they didn't know that. Judging them, using the knowledge we have now, seems incorrect at the very least.[/QUOTE]
I cannot believe you just said what you said. Holy shit.
I don’t think there was ANY information that would have justified the [i]illegal internment of American citizens based entirely on their race.[/i]
As for Obama, he really can be characterized by mediocrity (as someone pointed out earlier), but from what I can discern from people on both sides of the aisle is that he didn't do anything outstanding. Personally, I believe that is for the best in terms of race relations for the presidency. If he had done anything to create massive animosty, his race could've been used as a tool against any later person who would try to become president, only to be hampered by a predecessor pushing the envelope a bit too hard. ACA is prolly the only big thing i can think off the top of my head he will be remembered for 100% of the time in future history books other than "first president that happened to be black".
Clinton did well though, even if his legacy will be marred by the scandal that cost him his presidential powers near the end. Both Bushes I think belong a bit higher, but not too much more really.
As someone already said here, take current ones with massive amounts of salt.
Now for the feud at hand here, FDR had cajoled his way to being re-elected multiple times just so that the war can be carried out smoothly without too much fear of new administrations. I'm sure the image thing played a big part of why he chose to accept the internment option (though I won't necessarily outrule sheer racism being the core tenent there). Truman (on top of what has been discussed) also (arguably) put the US in the position that it was in to rival the USSR instead of de-escalating the issues like FDR actually had been doing. Instead we got a massive introduction to the Cold War, possibly the worst period of US interventionism and created at least half of modern issues we have now.
Both did better than I feel I could have prosecuted lol so yeah...
[QUOTE=Lambeth;53144128]In many ways FDR held the country together while Trump uh seems to be actively pulling it apart.[/QUOTE]
Its amazing that you guys are so quick to downplay history because it doesnt fit your own internal narrative of trump being the worst thing since sliced hitler
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53144138]I cannot believe you just said what you said. Holy shit.
I don’t think there was ANY information that would have justified the [i]illegal internment of American citizens based entirely on their race.[/i][/QUOTE]
So now you're doing it again
You're jamming a view point I don't have onto me, and getting mad.
I do not think that there is anything that would justify that.
But they did. I'm not trying to say it was okay. I've labored to say that it was terrible. Explaining what happened is not the fucking same as sanctioning it.
Maybe calm down because I totally get why people act like I'm a git when I get worked up after talking to you.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53144147]So now you're doing it again
You're jamming a view point I don't have onto me, and getting mad.
I do not think that there is anything that would justify that.
But they did. I'm not trying to say it was okay. I've labored to say that it was terrible. Explaining what happened is not the fucking same as sanctioning it.
Maybe calm down because I totally get why people act like I'm a git when I get worked up after talking to you.[/QUOTE]
But if you think they’re so horrible why have you tried to make them out as “not as bad as the holocaust” (yeah no shit good deductions) or explain why they happened? Why do you have to defend them??? You literally had no reason to try and justify them like you did
[QUOTE=Amber902;53144143]Its amazing that you guys are so quick to downplay history because it doesnt fit your own internal narrative of trump being the worst thing since sliced hitler[/QUOTE]
Hi, FDR's internment of Japanese Americans was fucking awful.
FDR did a lot of good things but FDR's internment of Japanese American citizens was fucking awful.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53144152]But if you think they’re so horrible why have you tried to make them out as “not as bad as the holocaust” (yeah no shit good deductions) or explain why they happened? Why do you have to defend them??? You literally had no reason to try and justify them like you did[/QUOTE]
I haven't tried to defend them
I tried to explain why what you said was hyperbolic.
You've misinterpreted my point from the fucking get go in order to create a boogeyman to hate.
Hello. I'm your boogeyman.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;53144153]Hi FDR's Japanese internment was fucking awful.[/QUOTE]
Yeah glad to know you think that. It’s just that Trump wasn’t really a part of the whole “FDR was shitty” discussion and is a bit of a sidestep that doesn’t bring up much of a point.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53144147]So now you're doing it again
You're jamming a view point I don't have onto me, and getting mad.
I do not think that there is anything that would justify that.
But they did. I'm not trying to say it was okay. I've labored to say that it was terrible. Explaining what happened is not the fucking same as sanctioning it.
Maybe calm down because I totally get why people act like I'm a git when I get worked up after talking to you.[/QUOTE]
Why did you get into this argument if you already thought FDR was that bad??? It honestly seems like you're backpedalling to save face
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53144154]I haven't tried to defend them
I tried to explain why what you said was hyperbolic.
You've misinterpreted my point from the fucking get go in order to create a boogeyman to hate.
Hello. I'm your boogeyman.[/QUOTE]
I thought I was the one who needed to calm down. You also could have started off by not defending the actions of FDR and making them out to be just some mistakes or whatever
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